Umps in bad position

I'm not sure there is a perfect position.  Position has to be established before the play at the plate.  Depending on what happens during this play, ball getting loose, runner missing the plate, inside or outside the base line, etc., any position could provide the best or worst view.  Kind of like choosing the camera shot that best replays the play. One camera angle gets it perfectly while another doesn't show what really happened. Obviously the umpire doesn't have the luxury of two or three different angles.

IMO, These plays when an umpire doesn't get the best view should be included in the replay rulings.  Maybe allow a team the chance to challenge the call and ask for a replay.  Why not get the call right? Let the play on the field dictate what happens.  Why should a game be decided by someone who didn't have a good view of the play, when the cameras had a perfect view.

I've been ranting about this for a good 15+ hours, and I think I momentarily lost my mind last night. 

I hope John Farrell gave him an earful last night, and got his moneys worth before being tossed.   My 18 year old son who is a part time umpire told me the MLB umpire totally blew it as his mechanics were off on the play.   He said he should have been on the 3rd base side.  He committed way too early to get up the first base side, or was too lazy to get a better angle on the 3rd base side.  If an 18 year-old part time umpire can see this, why do we need experienced MLB umpires with bad mechanics?    This the rhetorical question I've repeatedly asked myself today.  

This is exactly what instant replay can fix.  If they can do it in tennis with 140+ mph serves, the can do it on a baseball play to the plate.  Piece of cake.   My blood is boiling again, I need to take a time out. 

Generally, 3BLX is the best position to be in. That's why we do it. You get a better angle on tags at the plate and swipe tags on the plate side of the runner. You do need to be able to adjust--stay on the catcher's hip.

Quite the opposite. He started where he should have, and overhustled out of position. He was right to move to 3BLX initially, since the throw made it look as if it would result in a tag to the left. If he goes only to 3BLX and stays on the left hip, he sees everything. 1BLX may have helped, but he may have also ended up being blocked by the runner.

Honestly, I am no expert on umpiring positioning or mechanics.  I do know that instant replay showed what actually happened very accurately.  After all, the cameras are set up to get both views.  That is something almost impossible for one person.  What is wrong with just getting the the most important, game deciding, calls right? 

When the play started, the catcher set up to take the throw in front of the plate.  That generally leads to the catcher turning to his left and swiping at the runner.  So, 3BX is the best place to see that.

In this case, though, the catcher slid to his left to attempt to block the plate.  Now, 1BX is the spot to be.  The time it took him to slide?  Oh, .1 seconds (just a guess).  Not enough time to move from 3BX to 1BX.

And, suppose the umpire had gone to 1BX but it had been the swipe tag -- now you (or someone) would be here complaining about how the umpire didn't follow the guidelines and wasn't in 3BX.

I agree the umpire went too far to the right, so I'm not defending that.  Only that his initial position was correct and that plays can change in an instant and that the umpire can't be in two spots at once.

The runner. He is between the umpire and the tag. It's almost impossible to see a swipe tag from 1BLX.

Every post has commented on his position.

Happened again last night in the Yankee White Sox game. Same exact situation, Yankee runner on 2nd, single to left field, umpire is positioned behind the catcher in line with the 3rd base foul line. White Sox catcher makes the the runner come in standing up by faking like the throw wasn't coming until the last moment. Makes a swipe tag, but replay shows it was late. Umpire was completely blocked out, and punches the runner out. In fact he seemed more concerned about almost getting run over by the runner!

Yankees lose (again) 3-2. IMO the umpires need to question their positioning on this type of play if this is where they are taught to make this type of call.

That's just a goofy play. You have to officiate the most likely set of available plays, not the outliers. Not to mention, given where the tag was, there really was no available position to see it and the foot at the same time--the only place would have been behind the runner in fair territory, which isn't an option. You go 1BLX, the runner blocks you, you try to go to the right, the catcher blocks you.

How can you possibly see anything positioned there? Just asking since you obviously umpire and I do not. 

Of coarse if the runner slides, it becomes an easier call. But does he still get blocked?

So it's OK to get the "outliers" wrong. I guess this may be the argument for an putting in NFL similar instant replay or challenge system of plays at the plate. I'm sure Girardi would have used one last night. Al least this and many other blown plays would have been corrected. Isn't it best to get it right?

This is the strongest case for video replay I have read. First time I have seen it stated that there was no available position for an umpire to see a play.

To what position are you referring when you ask what one can see there? The part where I mentioned behind the runner in fair territory? If so, he would have been able to see the tag on the back of the leg and the touch of home.

I have never said it is OK to get calls incorrect or that replay is bad. However, this thread is an example of the underlying reason why we have qualms about the implementation of replay (not replay itself.) People who do not understand how rules relate to each other or how umpiring works have a tendency to fix things with a solution that is worse than the problem. Replay would work, as long as people understand that either you have to have non-reviewable calls, or you have to accept determinations that place a large amount of discretion in the hands of the umpiring crew.

I can give an example of how people not understanding how rules relate can affect a game. I work a college summer league where they play OBR, but use NCAA rules regarding illegal contact. That gives a huge advantage to the defense, as the catcher can camp at home while fielding the throw (which is a fairly liberal amount of time in OBR) and prevent the runner from touching the plate, but the runner has no means available, other than either somehow dancing around the block or sliding through it, to gain access to the plate.

Likewise, if someone wants to make a rule making all calls reviewable, they have to do that knowing that plays are not one event, but series of events, and that changing an event before the last one means that everything changes. The other option is not only limiting the types of calls, but the situation. What do you do with R3 who scores on a trapped fly to right where he left as soon as he thought it wasn't going to be caught? He's sitting on the bench, thinking he legally scored, when after a review, he's liable to be out on appeal. He never gets the chance to rectify his running error. Or the corollary, where he tries to retag third on a trap (thinking that the call may be overturned,) and the defense throws the ball out of play trying to retire a runner who is not liable to be put out? There, the culture of replay has caused an alteration of how the game is played.

Matt: I understand that an umpire can get caught out of position, and your point about every play in baseball being a series of events is a very good one.

But the the positioning in this play of 3BLX seems like the catcher will always block you. IMO if the umpire had positioned himself in 1BLX he would have a much better view of a throw coming from LF, just as if the throw was coming from RF, 3BLX would seem better.

That is the reason I asked, because you do umpire and on quite a high level. Your opinion on how the mechanics of positioning work would be greatly appreciated...

Okay, let's take a step back from actual case plays and go into "the book." How one takes a play at the plate is going to vary depending on the level of play. I say this because the play you see develop is going to be officiated differently in a MiLB/MLB game than in an NCAA/FED game, because of the differences in obstruction and illegal contact.

General principle: 3BLX is better for non-blocking plays, because the tag will be off the catcher's body, and 1BLX is better for blocking plays, because the tag will be in front of him.

We initially start directly behind the point of the plate (POP.) We read how the play is developing, and adjust. If there is an apparently imminent blockage of the plate, then we shift to 1BLX to see the collision (MiLB/MLB.) In NCAA/FED, we may go either way, depending on our reading of the runner. If he looks as if he is going to try to go around, we go to 3BLX, because the tag will be to the side of the catcher, and 1BLX will put the runner between us and the tag. If he looks like he will slide, I will often go to 1BLX to see the touch of the plate and the tag. In this case, we're playing the odds. 1BLX on a slide/blocked plate sometimes means we'll see one or the other, but not both, whereas 3BLX means we'll only see the touch.

Also keep in mind that assuming proper distance from the play, it is 12-14 feet between proper positioning at 3BLX and 1BLX. That means that if a play seems to develop one way, but becomes another, it is nearly impossible to move from one side to the other, which is why staying at POP until the last possible moment is needed.

It used to be a generalization to take plays from the right side of the field at 3BLX and plays from the left at 1BLX, but it has recently become apparent that staying on the catcher's hip is the most beneficial means to get to the play--his movement will take you to what you need to see. So, with that, we start at POP and move depending on the catcher. One huge advatage to this is if you have a play that ends up being a swipe tag on the backside of the runner, if you've stayed moving with the hip, you'll naturally be looking pretty much down his arm as he attempts the tag. Thus, it's no longer a spot on the ground, but a spot in relation to the players.

I can tell you that I will almost always go to 3BLX if I can't tell how the play will develop, simply because most plays that can be seen from 1BLX call themselves, and with one exception, all my catchers are right-handed, so I'm closeish to being on the hip there.

Thanks for your explanation. It helps to understand how positioning works.