Umps obligation to signal an out.

I've got something I've been wondering about for a while along the same lines. I was at a college game a while back; there's a runner on first and the batter takes apparent ball four. Ump doesn't move or say anything, batter trots to first and runner on first trots to second. When both runners are about midway between bases the umpire finally calls a strike, at which time the catcher fires to the second baseman who tags the runner. The field ump let the out stand. Seems like the runner on first got hosed by the home plate ump. Shouldn't there be some sort of recourse to correct a situation like this since it was caused by an umpire?

cccsdad:

The home plate umpire messed up. It is his call or he needs to defer to the field ump by looking at him. A safe arms gesture should have been given by one of the umpires if the pitcher did not catch it. An out gesture with verbal "bater is out" should have been the call if the ball was caught by the pitcher. You were probably correct to asume there was no catch when no one called anything and, had I been the field ump, I would have stoped play and consulted with the home plate ump and probably put the runner back on third and left the batter/runner on first. Not really being completely fair to the defense [bater/runner should have bave been thrown out at first] but from your description the pitcher thouht he did not catch the bal or he would not have started to first and since the coach was the one that changed the pitcher's mind, I would not feel real bad about leaving the batter/runner on first. I would, however, feel very bad that I had to work with an ump that did not call safe or out immediately on a close catch/nocatch play with runners on base.

StyleMismatch:

Screw up by first base coach in my opinion. Though the home plate umpire apparently took longer than normal to call ball four, the base runner should never get off the base and head to second [or third, or home for that matter] until he is CERTAIN that a walk has been issued by the umpire. Coaches, when in doubt, ask.

TW344

Ive got to agree.....in the first situation, this is the Homeplates call to make...and it requires a call.....blown call...and if you needed any additional proof, the comment regarding "shut up and get back to your dugout" proves it. No umpire sure of his position has to resort to that sort of communcation....He blew it and was not man enough to admit it.

2nd situation, although a late call of strike, this does not alleviate the runners of thier responsiblity to know what the call/count is....In college baseball, the players and coaches are expected to know what the situation is.....play on.......

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Ive got to agree.....in the first situation, this is the Homeplates call to make...and it requires a call.....blown call...and if you needed any additional proof, the comment regarding "shut up and get back to your dugout" proves it. No umpire sure of his position has to resort to that sort of communcation....He blew it and was not man enough to admit it.

ond once this play is messed up by the umpire there is no basis in the rules for "fixing it". He hosed you and the rules don't permit him to try to make things right after the fact. I'm surprised that there wasn't an EJ...

FVB10, what do you mean you were suprised there wasn't and EJ?

Are you saying I should have been ejected for asking who had the out. And I have to differ, if the home plate ump goes to the field ump and says he didn't see a catch, the filed ump concurs that he didn't see a catch, you **** bet you they could have "fixed" it. They could have put the batter at 1st and either let the run score or keep the runner at third.

They both admited that neither one of them saw a catch. So, you tell me why any of my guys should have been out?

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
FVB10, what do you mean you were suprised there wasn't and EJ?

Are you saying I should have been ejected for asking who had the out.

I believe that you misunderstood me. When an umpire screws a play up that badly it usually escalates into a situation where one coach or the other will do or say something that results in his not being allowed to view the rest of the game. You didn't go there, and I applaud you for your restraint, I sure wouldn't have been allowed to stick around if I was coaching and an umpire blew a call and had the audacity to tell me to "shut up and go back to my dugout!"

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
FVB10, I have to differ, if the home plate ump goes to the field ump and says he didn't see a catch, the filed ump concurs that he didn't see a catch, you **** bet you they could have "fixed" it. They could have put the batter at 1st and either let the run score or keep the runner at third.

What they can't fix is the fact that the out wasn't verbalized by ruling the B-R out and allowing R3 to score, there's just no rules basis for a ruling like that.

quote:

Originally posted by cccsdad:
FVB10, They both admited that neither one of them saw a catch. So, you tell me why any of my guys should have been out?

hmmm, in your first post you had the PU saying that R3 was out for not tagging up, which means he thought the ball was caught. It seems to me that even if he thought the call was the BU's he knew it was caught even if he didn't verbalize or signal so.

They are out because the PU ruled it a catch (even if he didn't intend to) by calling R3 out for failing to retouch.

Eg 1-- It was the 3rd base coaches fault for sending the runner--not knowing if it was caught or not, his 1st response should've been "get back to 3rd!".Maybe the only reason the other coach called for his pitcher to throw home was, you had the runner coming home.... Yea, the PU made verbal mistakes, but know this, just because an out is not "called", doesnt mean its not an out. eg- easy fly for 3rd out, neither ump signals out, team running off the field,--its still an out!

arch the ump HAS to make a clear call on this type of play. Okay, let's use your logic, runner on 1st and 2nd, same type of ball is hit, the ump makes no call, the runners don't know if they should advance to attempt to avoid a double play, or they should stay put to avoid being put out for not tagging. It is not the runners or coaches job to assume an out. If that's the case, why do we have umpires?

Your example of a routine fly ball is silly, and has no relationship with the scenario I described.

The home plate ump told me he did not call the batter out, and he never told me that he saw a catch.He said the filed ump did, the field ump told me he didn't see a catch. When I brought this to the home plate umps attention
he just said, "go to your dugout"

In this type of play the PU has the call. If he has a catch he should signal the catch. If he doesn't see a catch he needs to signal with a safe sign and probably give a,"No catch!" To try to pawn it off on the BU is garbage.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
In this type of play the PU has the call. If he has a catch he should signal the catch. If he doesn't see a catch he needs to signal with a safe sign and probably give a,"No catch!" To try to pawn it off on the BU is garbage.

I agree, this sounds like a crew without a clue as to their responsibilities. Like I said earlier, I'm glad it wasn't me coaching.