undermined by parent

Why would you make it difficult for your HS players to play showcases? Just because you don't like them? These players need to be seen in competitive events so they can be recruited.

If you need to build your program over the summer then having your "best" players enhancing their skills in a competitive format will allow you more time to spend with the players that really need your help.
When the team comes back together, everyone should be stronger. Our HS coach encouraged our guys to play in the best summer and fall travel programs available. Because our coach embraced the development of the players he had the respect and support of the players and their families, and built and maintained a successful program.
For you winning or losing with your summer program should not be on your radar. It should be about developing the players that need your help over the summer and fall, not the ones that don’t, who have other opportunities that you are not able to provide.

I think that you've misunderstood my purpose in this post. My goal is to keep my players together so that we can build a winning program together, not to prevent players from having opportunities at showcase events.

My concern is the feeling that this parent will be taking other parents' money to coach a team whose purpose is to fracture the current program into two groups that don't get along.

I can see how maybe what was written led you to believe that I don't want any kids playing in showcases, however my feeling is that those events only help a certain few players and that on the whole they are events tailored to taking money from people. As a former college coach, I believe that only certain players benefit from these events, however most high school students would get farther simply writing a letter to a college coach and attaching their statistics and a schedule.

I still contend that the players that need your help are the players that can not find a competetive summer team because they lack the necessary skills. These players will be available to you to develop. If you do not put up roadblocks for the parents and the players that believe they need to be seen in order to be recruited, then you will gain their support and build a team that comes together in the spring.

We played a little in the summer as a HS team but only for a single tournament and that was an "All-Star event county wide.

In the fall my son practiced with his HS team daily and then played Tournaments over the weekends with his "Showcase" teams.

We embraced our HS program, but were never asked to choose between what we believed to be best for our son to get him to the next level. If we had been required to choose, things would have been very different.

I am mystified that you believe a player these days can get a scholarship at a D-1 or D-2, D-3 or JUCO by writing letters and telling coaches what his stats are. It really does not work that way.

I believe that we are talking about two different things. I'm sorry you believe that I'm talking about how to get a baseball scholarship. That is a different thread entirely.

My post is for other high school coaches about how to keep your teams together in the summer and fall... not how to block student-athletes from showcase events on the weekends. I have no desire to limit playing opportunities, however I do have a desire to maximize opportunities for the kids at my school to play together in a positive environment.

Does the question come down to - what if one of your players wanted to play for another select team besides the one the meddlesome dad is trying to start? Would you still be opposed to that?

As a high school coach I'm pretty much with floridafan and I'm one that's leery of select teams. I see where some select teams are just daddyball exercises which I think the dad in your case is going to start. But there are many great teams out there that are doing the right thing. I believe a high school coach needs to help a player determine which team will help them the most. It does involve swallowing some pride and letting someone else coach your players. If the competition is better than what you can provide with your summer team you owe it to them and your team to let them play.

gcfan3307 must play in one tough district if he has 7 "college prospects" and they are that bad. I'm sorry, but your run of the mill high school player doesn't need to be playing showcase ball. I'm with him on this one. Those kids should be playing as a team and getting better as a team.

I agree with Bulldog and Coach -- if it was just simply a case of a kid (or 7) who needed college exposure leaving to play on a select team that would be acceptable to me. It happens every year.

What bothers me is this feeling that things are being done behind my back that are dishonest (in terms of the money involved) and potentially hurtful to other parents and players within my program.

This is not difficult. Just tell them what's expected during the Summer meeting.

Tell them you are building a team, and you will be selecting your starting players based on their performance over the summer.

Then follow through.

That would be a great way to destroy a team.

Why do HS coaches feel that they need to control every aspect of a players development?! If this had ever occured at our school we would have been more upset than words permitted on this site could describe!

I suppose Sultan, if the coach was a proponent of swinging down on the ball and promoted a purely linear swing and did not want his players working with outside hitting instructors you would feel the same way?

Yeah, that will work out fine! Just send your stats showing a .385 BA with all singles to FSU or UNC and see wher that gets you.

hehe, floridafan. I didn't say I agreed with him, just telling him how to do what he wants.

quote:

Originally posted by gcfan3307:
What bothers me is this feeling that things are being done behind my back that are dishonest (in terms of the money involved) and potentially hurtful to other parents and players within my program.

If you do not put yourself between your players and their parents there will be no adversity. Read the pages on this site and you will count on one or two hands the number of players that went on to play at the next level because their HS Coach made it happen for them.

Like it or not but college recruiters show up to evaluaue talent at events like WWBA and BCS Championships. Not at the local field, unless the player is already on everyones radar because he is 6'4" 230 and hits bombs.

My son was a local favorite, a lot of press and a lot of games. But if he had never played in showcases like the PG World Showcase, or played on teams that went to WWBA events, the offers he received to play at the next level would not have existed.

If you forget about other peoples money, and desire that your best players play against better competition at events that are scouted, and you concern yourself with developing the players that VALUE YOUR HELP, you will build a program. If you force players that believe they need exposure and experience that you can not provide you are asking for an insurrection and no team building.

The players that play in tournaments and are your better players will grow and help their team mates along when they can at Fall practices and Spring games.

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Why do HS coaches feel that they need to control every aspect of a players development?!

Because the parents have put all of the blame on the coach when a team doesn't win. And that costs the coach his job!

So how in tune are you with the YOUNGER players that feed in to your high school?

You want to start building a baseball program? Build a COMMUNITY program.

Take your players, talk to the local rec leagues and go host skills clinics for the younger players. Not only can you raise money to help your team's cause, you build GOOD WILL. You get the young kids seeing the players in their HS uniforms and you build PRIDE.

The older kids you have? The more skilled players? Most will probably play Summer / Fall ball on travel or showcase teams. Nothing wrong with that, it makes them better players (if the environment is there) which only makes your team better.

How about run a Summer / Fall league for all your younger players, or the players that will be trying out? So you know what you have? That way you can get these kids working out and improving before the next HS season even starts?

When programs are ignored and do poorly, people stop caring. What is there to be proud of? You've got to work to get that pride back. You've got to make the younger kids WANT to work towards playing HS ball.

That part of baseball has changed it seems, almost EVERYWHERE. I remember the HS coach coming to my league when I was young. I remember the current High School players that played in my league showing up in their HS uniforms on opening day. It was cool for the young kids to see. It builds an atmosphere that makes winning teams.

I remember having a conversation years ago with a guy who inherited a horrible HS program. Their football and basketball was top notch. Same with other sports. He couldn't fathom why not many kids were trying out etc.

The field was in bad shape. Past teams were horrible. The running commentary was that only kids who weren't any good played at that HS (baseball).

When I shared my thoughts on the subject, he took it to heart. He grew up like I did, with a sense of COMMUNITY and PRIDE in our local team. A few years later and he posted winning seasons. A season or two ago they went to the State Tournament .First time that school had gone that far in baseball since anyone could remember.

Just something to keep in mind.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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Why do HS coaches feel that they need to control every aspect of a players development?!

Because the parents have put all of the blame on the coach when a team doesn't win. And that costs the coach his job!

Sorry, sounds like a cop out to me.

If a program with a history of winning, starts losing consistently...well maybe then. But a program that's grown used to losing, people just stop caring.

And let's be honest here...how is ONE coach supposed to develop and train ALL These players? Really?

Sure there are some top notch programs out there that may be the exception. But in today's environment, where budgets are getting cut and even sports are getting cut from schools, if a player wants to improve their game to the next level they are going to have get close in instruction and put work in more than just a few months out of the year.

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have get close in instruction and put work in more than just a few months out of the year.

And that is exactly what this coach appears to be trying to do. And is getting resistance doing.

My high school basketball coach just resigned this spring after another poor season. The school had 4 in a row after his first 3 years were strong. The school has ZERO basketball talent. And there were a group of parents on him big-time. But it was interesting because those parents were the same ones whose kids were not ever coming to the open-gyms.

You can't have it both ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

have get close in instruction and put work in more than just a few months out of the year.

And that is exactly what this coach appears to be trying to do. And is getting resistance doing.

My high school basketball coach just resigned this spring after another poor season. The school had 4 in a row after his first 3 years were strong. The school has ZERO basketball talent. And there were a group of parents on him big-time. But it was interesting because those parents were the same ones whose kids were not ever coming to the open-gyms.

You can't have it both ways.

I agree with what you posted. But if the original poster had a team with say 6-7 good ball players and many more that need a lot more training / instruction, how does putting those 6-7 in the same boat help?

Every player is different. And they need different areas and levels of instruction. One coach can't do that. Two can't either.

You need an organized, concentrated, GROUP effort to get it done.

And trying to "stand your ground" and make players play for you during Summer / Fall is not the way to do that.

I know a local HS program which "forbids" its JV and V players from playing any "Travel" ball during the school season.

From a pitching standpoint I can see that.

From a standpoint with kids who aren't even getting playing time on JV or V and now can't play travel OR LOCAL REC LEAGUE ball, it's just stupid, and does nothing but cause resentment among your own players.

quote:

Originally posted by gcfan3307:
I agree with Bulldog and Coach -- if it was just simply a case of a kid (or 7) who needed college exposure leaving to play on a select team that would be acceptable to me. It happens every year.

What bothers me is this feeling that things are being done behind my back that are dishonest (in terms of the money involved) and potentially hurtful to other parents and players within my program.

I may be wrong but I think we might be focusing on the wrong aspect of his problem. Based on what gcfan is putting here if one of his kids can play on a team that could get exposure then he's ok with it but he also wants them with him to help build the team. You guys make great points about letting guys play at the top of their ability even if it's somewhere else but I think the deeper problem is the parents undermining him.

If gcfan wants his kids with him to build his team but lets them go to play on other teams to get exposure then I can't find fault with that as long as pitchers don't get overworked. But it sounds like this parent wants to start his own team because he doesn't like what gcfan is doing with the high school team during the spring.

This could be a huge problem if you have a coach in the summer blowing smoke and telling the guys what they want to hear. Then you have a coach in the spring being realistic with the guys and having to discipling players. I've seen teams crumble due to this stuff.

I may be wrong but I think this is what the true problem is.

Coach you hit it right on the head.

quote:

Originally posted by gcfan3307:
Coach you hit it right on the head.

LOL I've been in your shoes before so I know what you're talking about. I'm heading to practice right now but I will get on here later tonight to give a more detailed answer about what I did.

Sorry it's taken all night to get back with you but I was on the phone with an old friend I hadn't seen in a long time who coached for me in Kentucky.

Honestly you're in a bad spot because almost anything you do can be used by the dad to make you look bad. You could say all players have to play for you and that's it. That's not good because like we've discussed on here you need to let the better kids play on better teams for exposure. So the parent can say you're holding them back from exposure.

You can't say play on the team but you will allow some playing on outside teams. Well if you allow them to play on other teams then one of those teams will be the dad's team. If you forbid them from playing on it the dad will turn it around and make you look self - conscious.

It's truly a tough spot to be in and I really don't have a good answer other than it's sometimes best to let some people have enough rope to hang themselves. You're going to outlast this parent because his son is going to eventually graduate and get out of your hair. Now some will say that another will be ready to step in to take his place and that is true for the most part. But what I've found to help is during the high school season you work your butt off and make the guys better just in the spring. Over time and improved success the new parents entering the program will be less likely to challenge or question what you do based on the fact you've proven yourself over time. Right now you're new and they don't know you. They will question you because they don't know any better.

Let him have his team and let the guys play on it who want to play. The guys will slowly realize what the deal is once they see him in action. It's easy to sit in the stands and say "Well what I would do is..." versus filling out a lineup card and getting in the third base box. Once the kids see him in the spotlight like you're in they will start to realize who knows what they are talking about or who has their best interests at heart.

Early on when I became a head coach in Kentucky I had this kid who wasn't a bad player but his dad thought he was the next coming of the greatest player ever. He hated the way I did things and I was new so he challenged me on many things. He was even in the group who tried to get me fired because I wanted to change everything. Well he gets this idea he's going run his own team to show me how it's done. He even said that to me one day. He tried to make it sound like he just wanted to give me some pointers but you had to be blind to not realize what he was doing. He decided he was going to get kids from area teams to play on it and contacted them. He said he was going to have tryouts and cut those not worthy of playing on his team.

A few days before the tryout he asks me to come help out and me being the jerk I am I said I would. We get there to the field for the day of tryouts and he said he expected around 30 - 35 kids to be there.......we had 7 show up. He gives me a clipboard and a stopwatch and tells me to get their time to first as they take BP. It was a BS job to make me look irrelevant so I decided to play up the part. I got a lawn chair and sat in the first base box with my feet up on a bucket and took the times.

He ran BP by having two guys hit at once on the field. He took a screen and put on the plate to separate the two hitters. He had two L-Screens with two BP pitchers going at once. So there were balls flying all over the place from hitters and he tried to have a fungo going at the same time. Now to do all this he got a few more parents to show up and help out. So all these balls are flying around everywhere and I yell out to him what kind of insurance he had to cover any kid who gets hurt from balls flying around. I even mentioned negligence on his part. Then after the first two hitters get finished they both run to first but I only had one stopwatch that he gave me. I yelled that out to him and it was difficult to get the times on two unless he wanted me to best guess it.

By the end of this "tryout" he looked like a complete clown and all I did was sit on a lawnchair as a guest evaluator which is how he introduced me to my own players. The kids saw he had no clue and he lost a lot of prestige in their eyes. He told them early on they were going to play around 40 games and they ended up having 13 games I think because the kids stopped showing up.

Needless to say that was the last I had to worry about a parent wanting to undercut me in that regard. Several kept trying to get me fired still but over time they all disappeared due to graduationg and it got better because I built up a reputation over the time I was head coach. Not everybody was happy with what I did because you will never make everyone happy but it got better.

I have no idea if this is how it's going to go for you but I don't think you can stop him from forming his own team or keep the guys from it. Anything you do he can turn it around to make you look bad. It's probably going to take longer to turn the high school around but it will happen due to working your butt off in the spring.

It's not what you want to hear and I'm sorry about that but let it play out on it's own.

Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
This is not difficult. Just tell them what's expected during the Summer meeting.

Tell them you are building a team, and you will be selecting your starting players based on their performance over the summer.

Then follow through.

I'm sorry. But this is the absolute WORSE thing a high school coach should ever tell a player. This is nothing but short of arm-twisting, coercion, and intimidation, and there is no place for this in high school baseball.

i think i would let the players go where they want in the summer. then have your team play a fall schedule.
kind of fits a little better with you being the school coach. while they are in school they can be on your team ,spring and fall. better chance they won't forget things too.

20dad.....

That is what we do. Our guys play on several different teams in the summer, but none are run by a parent. I like this because it exposes them to how others run a team and maybe expose them to a different teaching tip that they can use (they get to hear it from someone other than me).

Another thing about playing together in the fall is that we get to practice together everyday in an off-season class. I will still have a couple that play on a different team in the fall, but I have no problem with that. One thing different with us is that our fall team is run by a parent that I picked. He was willing to do that since he has two sons that start on our varsity. (I don't think anyone will accuse him of playing "daddy ball".

During the summer, players should play wherever they and their parents want to. Period.

Any father has a right to start a team. Summer is the players' time not the coach's time. Coach has an enitre school year...9 months. If the coach can't get the most out of his team given the talent level in 9 months then perhaps the coach should look in the mirror. The 3 summer months belong to the kid. He can play for daddy, he can sit on his butt, or play on a well run travel team with real coaches. As long as he shows up during the school year, gives it his all, and plays well, his coach should not say a word.

I was pretty lucky this year. I went to the HS varsity and JV coaches and tried to work with them so we could get a more cohesive BL and LL program that will help develop players for the switch to HS ball.

My son came into the HS program from summer and fall ball programs that were for the most part broken in some way or another. The coaching although varied in methods was fair, but they did not work together to teach the same fundamentals. This resulted in some kids with great pitching skills, but no concept of job or pitcher itself outside of throwing a strike. Or a kid who slap hits that can't beat out a throw. not to mention a whole host of other issues that was passed on to the next coach and ultimately the JV coaches at HS.

I came into the league 8 years ago as an assistant originally and helped out to varying degrees until the last 3 seasons I have tried to work with other coaches to make a better league which will give us all better teams in the end. Which eventually will give the HS coaches better prepared players.

I got no help at all from the Varsity coaches, but the JV coach was a great help. With his help I got all the kids from his JV squad that were able to play, as well as 4 Varsity starters. We did okay as far as wins and losses, we were about .600 or close. But what pleased me most was kids who tanked simple plays due to nerves in a game were now making those catches and throws. The coach gave me a short list of things that his players needed, and we tried to work on them as much as we could.

He came and watched our last few games and was excited about his new team.

As a coach and parent, I can say if you as a parent/coach want to make a better environment for baseball development with a summer team, than work with the HS coaches and not against them. It will help you and them in the end and nothing makes a player more confused than two coaches they respect at odds.

You need to make sure these players are there when they can. I coach in Southern California and coach a team that is a top ranked team in our division every year. However is you watched us during the summer and fall you would scratch your head and ask how? Over the past 4 years I had a group of 4-5 players that range from Top Level JC, 2 DI kids, and a future draft or DI. I am not going to expect these players to be at all of the summer or fall games. My deal with them has always been this....I want you playing the best competition around. I need a copy of your schedule so that I know where you will be and when you will be there. Then I combine our schedule with there's give them back that combined schedule and tell them that is when I expect them to be around and if they are not now there are problems. I think some showcases are a waste of time but you will never convince the parents of this because that is what the industry preaches. Just make sure you know where your players are and when they need to be around.

First, you don't have to have everyone on the same team to create a foundations for a team, you can set up workouts like weightlifting, speed training ... which, in turn, create elements that will produce teamwork. I know some hs athletes will be doing this for football but you can still achieve good things this way with those that want to work with you. Listen, you will never have the perfect situation. In Illinois, we have 25 contact days. So, I can get my team together 25 times for this training as well as skills work.

You want the varsity to play all summer together. Sometimes, this is not productive. Some kids will want to play at a very high level. What I did was try to build my program by coaching Junior Legion ball. Then, all of the kids coming up through the ranks were already exposed to my philosophy, coaching style, drills ... when they made varsity. I also had a good idea of the skill level and know who to keep and cut. When I had kids that wanted to play travel then I realized that it gave me opportunities to work with other kids to get their skill set up to snuff. Then, we had real competition for positions.

Your parent can be a problem but only if you let him be a problem. Obviously, you and he do you agree. Move on. Your work ethic will always show through and, in the end, all involved will notice the changes you are trying to make. Keep this in mind, if you spend too much time thinking about that one parent, you'll give that parent more power than they ever imagined. JMHO!

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Should I even be ****ed off or just accept it as part of coaching in 2011?

It is part of coaching in 2011. why? because it has been allowed to be part of coaching in 2011.