"Artificially propped up" is a cop out. Almost all sports are "artificially propped up" including football at the vast majority of schools and certainly baseball at almost every school. Research has shown that, in fact, women's sports represents untapped revenue in a lot of cases and with better marketing companies stand to make more money off of women sports than they do now. Title IX isn't perfect but it was important and necessary. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean that it is the best way and continuing to do it. Actually, I'm not even going to respond to that more. In this case your name more than fits.
@atlnon I agree. I chose to go to a school that gave a full ride based purely on academics. They had an advantage in my case over other schools in my particular case. That's just life. The issue is the 11.7 and the recruiting impact/advantage layering gives. I think the documentary is a really good one so that parents understand going in all the forces at play. For example, my son was really interested in going SEC. We looked at the rosters and the scholarship advantages and dropped the GA schools off his list. it's just too easy for them to recruit in state...
@PTWood posted:"Artificially propped up" is a cop out. Almost all sports are "artificially propped up" including football at the vast majority of schools and certainly baseball at almost every school. Research has shown that, in fact, women's sports represents untapped revenue in a lot of cases and with better marketing companies stand to make more money off of women sports than they do now. Title IX isn't perfect but it was important and necessary. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean that it is the best way and continuing to do it. Actually, I'm not even going to respond to that more. In this case your name more than fits.
title IX has been with us since 1972. Not 100% sure what you are saying but I agree it has been great for woman’s sports and that is good.
if you are saying it doesn’t limit Mens sports I think you are incorrect.
if you are saying it is no longer needed fair enough I am not sure I agree but if you think it should be modified I do agree
i have heard the same marketing and expansion plans for soccer since the 80’s and you see how that is going. That being said the softball WS is amazing and under utilized
@old_school posted:title IX has been with us since 1972. Not 100% sure what you are saying but I agree it has been great for woman’s sports and that is good.
if you are saying it doesn’t limit Mens sports I think you are incorrect.
if you are saying it is no longer needed fair enough I am not sure I agree but if you think it should be modified I do agree
i have heard the same marketing and expansion plans for soccer since the 80’s and you see how that is going. That being said the softball WS is amazing and under utilized
I’m not a soccer fan. The last game I attended my son was playing. But, if you think nothing has changed with soccer since 1980 you haven’t been paying attention. You’ve just been quickly flipping past all the soccer channels and highlights.
MLS is far from the best soccer in the world. But it’s what the US has. Average attendance has gone from 13.7K in 2002 to 21.6K in 2016 (57%). With expansion total attendance has tripled. Most MLS franchises have new, modern, soccer stadiums
The significant change in television soccer is the amount of top level, world wide soccer being broadcast into US homes.
But after 30 years it still trails hockey…or maybe ties it. If you consider that impressive fair enough
@old_school posted:But after 30 years it still trails hockey…or maybe ties it. If you consider that impressive fair enough
The biggest movement in soccer has been in this century. It’s because there are now dads who grew up on soccer.
The biggest growth in televised soccer has occurred in the past five years. Denying the sport is growing doesn’t mean it isn’t.
But we’ve wandered a long way from baseball scholarships.
If you read old threads, back in the day, the HSBBW platform wouldn't allow the word "soccer" (and other bad words) to be used, so people had to use "sokker" or "s****r" or other workarounds. Apparently this lasted until 2013.
I always liked that about HSBBW, because that's exactly how I feel about soccer.
The only sport despised by all of my kids liked.
@PTWood posted:For example, my son was really interested in going SEC. We looked at the rosters and the scholarship advantages and dropped the GA schools off his list. it's just too easy for them to recruit in state...
But isn't that what the state scholarships (and out of state fees) are meant to achieve, to (1) make it more affordable for in state students to attend in state schools; and (2) to keep in state students in state? I mean I don't deny it gives advantage for in state students, and it gives advantage for states that has more generous state scholarships. But that's the case regardless of whether you are an athlete or not, and this is exactly what it's meant to do. What's the issue of layering the 11.7 athletic scholarship on top of that as long as it's the same layer that all schools are allowed to add on? The students earn the state scholarship through academic merit (and put in work to ensure they maintain their academics to keep it) and earn the athletic scholarship through athletic merit (and have to put in additional work athletically to keep it).
@atlnon Yes. No argument from me there at all. PTWoodson qualified for general academic scholarships where he committed as well that brought his cost to attend down to nothing. I think understanding how it works is what is so important.
@atlnon posted:But isn't that what the state scholarships (and out of state fees) are meant to achieve, to (1) make it more affordable for in state students to attend in state schools; and (2) to keep in state students in state? I mean I don't deny it gives advantage for in state students, and it gives advantage for states that has more generous state scholarships. But that's the case regardless of whether you are an athlete or not, and this is exactly what it's meant to do. What's the issue of layering the 11.7 athletic scholarship on top of that as long as it's the same layer that all schools are allowed to add on? The students earn the state scholarship through academic merit (and put in work to ensure they maintain their academics to keep it) and earn the athletic scholarship through athletic merit (and have to put in additional work athletically to keep it).
and we know the academic money of student athlete is same as the money for non student athlete cause the rules say so....
@old_school You actually hit on something there. I think that is part of the problem. For state programs like GA (Hope Scholarship), Florida (Bright Futures) or university scholarships (I just know Mississippi State--they have an automatic academic scholarship based on GPA and SAT/ACT thresholds--I'm sure they aren't the only ones)...the scholarships 100% ARE the same for athletes vs. non-athletes. However, if you look at Vanderbilt's need-based scholarship, there is a huge range of financial aid for each income point so there is some flexibility there. Whether more "financial aid" goes to help an athlete they really want or a french horn player that is really needed by the band, there is a lot of gray area that people believe has been used to make Vanderbilt free for the vast majority of their baseball players. This is true for any private institution with a huge endowment (think ivies and schools like Notre Dame, Duke, etc.). However, for baseball, Vanderbilt has the best combination of academics and the opportunity to play at the highest level athletically and Corbin has turned that into a great advantage. To me, he's just playing the cards he's been dealt.
@old_school posted:and we know the academic money of student athlete is same as the money for non student athlete cause the rules say so....
Good point. I was referring to state sponsored merit based scholarship as that was specifically called out in the video. They questioned the fairness of this type of scholarship in the video. As far as this type of scholarship is concerned, it is the same money for all types of students. The video called this type of scholarship separately from Vanderbilt's scholarship, which I agree is a valid concern.
The only surprise to me was the state scholarship of Arkansas that is made available to adjoining state. If I am a resident of Arkansas, I would not be happy with this. If there are extra funds, use it to expand scholarship to state residents.
@PTWood posted:@old_school You actually hit on something there. I think that is part of the problem. For state programs like GA (Hope Scholarship), Florida (Bright Futures) or university scholarships (I just know Mississippi State--they have an automatic academic scholarship based on GPA and SAT/ACT thresholds--I'm sure they aren't the only ones)...the scholarships 100% ARE the same for athletes vs. non-athletes. However, if you look at Vanderbilt's need-based scholarship, there is a huge range of financial aid for each income point so there is some flexibility there. Whether more "financial aid" goes to help an athlete they really want or a french horn player that is really needed by the band, there is a lot of gray area that people believe has been used to make Vanderbilt free for the vast majority of their baseball players. This is true for any private institution with a huge endowment (think ivies and schools like Notre Dame, Duke, etc.). However, for baseball, Vanderbilt has the best combination of academics and the opportunity to play at the highest level athletically and Corbin has turned that into a great advantage. To me, he's just playing the cards he's been dealt.
well thank you...I actually kind of appreciate that.
I am very well aware that private colleges have sliding scales for these but if you do some searching on here from years back you will find massive disagreement to the fact. Corbin is playing his cards as he should. Just like many others. I find it amusing when the obvious is ignored and or denied which if you search past threads you may understand.
just you understand i don't think the awesome french horn player gets treated way different then the SS at many schools. I think they both get treated way different the standard student with a 3.5 and plays club rugby while doing keg stand in the parking lot before football games...and there are deniers of that here as well LOL.
The general temp has come down quite few degrees recently on this site, hmm I wonder why? Must be the end of summer and the weather getting better.
I think it is stupid to blame title ix. We shouldn't play out men vs women but maybe ask why football needs 85 scholarships when many of those will never see any significant playing time.
I get football makes money but do they really need to full ride their last bench spot?
To reduce the number of full rides that football gives out would mean that the talent would get spread more thinly. This would ultimately mean that the major powers would get upset by run of the mill P5 schools at a slightly higher rate. Since the major powers make the rules football has "excess" scholarships.
100% what you two said @Dominik85 and @K9!!
@K9 posted:To reduce the number of full rides that football gives out would mean that the talent would get spread more thinly. This would ultimately mean that the major powers would get upset by run of the mill P5 schools at a slightly higher rate. Since the major powers make the rules football has "excess" scholarships.
So you say the top schools put guys on their bench with a full ride so they can't beat them playing for opponents.
@Dominik85 posted:So you say the top schools put guys on their bench with a full ride so they can't beat them playing for opponents.
Yes...look at Alabama in recent years...at various points have had three first round QBs, three first round RBs and four first round WRs at the same time. The big time football coaches frequently move into the AD's office and NCAA committees where they ensure that football drives the bus.
@Dominik85 posted:So you say the top schools put guys on their bench with a full ride so they can't beat them playing for opponents.
Yes, and this used to go on in college baseball too, back before scholarships were limited.
Here is a good read if you want to see how the college world bends to football, with Women's rowing being the lynch pin to make it happen.
@Dominik85 posted:So you say the top schools put guys on their bench with a full ride so they can't beat them playing for opponents.
Nick Sabin, Alabama coach can tell all his recruits this is the avenue to the NFL and becoming a millionaire. All 85 on scholarship plus walk ons believe it. It’s only the truth for about ten of them per class getting to the NFL. Half of those ten won’t get drafted high and won’t stick long term. But they all believe it. At other top programs the odds are lower but all 85 plus walk ons buy the sales pitch.
Kentucky does the same thing for basketball. Last year Brandon Boston went to Kentucky as a top recruit in the country. He fell on his face. He did the baseball equivalent of hitting .190 (shot 30%). I’ll bet he didn’t go to class after the first semester. Despite falling on his face he declared for the draft. He wasn’t selected in the first round. Only first rounders get guaranteed contracts. It turns out the Clippers gave Boston the first guaranteed contract signed by a second rounder in history for 2.5M. It’s really rolling the dice for a player who was a complete flop in his one year in college.
Does anyone have a valid list of all D1 baseball program's funded scholarships? I got the impression that the majority (50%+) did not even fully fund the 11.7 maximum and took it upon themselves to further limit athletic scholarship opportunities for baseball.
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:Does anyone have a valid list of all D1 baseball program's funded scholarships? I got the impression that the majority (50%+) did not even fully fund the 11.7 maximum and took it upon themselves to further limit athletic scholarship opportunities for baseball.
This question has come up a few times over the years (fourteen for me). Unless something has changed a list does not exist.
Private schools like Vanderbilt have a huge advantage in the current climate. They are able to give out a ton of “academic scholarships “ that the public universities don’t. I would bet that a significant portion of Vandy’s legit pro prospects are on the equivalent of full rides, i.e. a combo of athletic and academic money.
@3and2Fastball posted:Private schools like Vanderbilt have a huge advantage in the current climate. They are able to give out a ton of “academic scholarships “ that the public universities don’t. I would bet that a significant portion of Vandy’s legit pro prospects are on the equivalent of full rides, i.e. a combo of athletic and academic money.
I don't think it's that straight forward. Academic money is tied to NCAA regulations to get it, and keep it. I think they have other aid they give that probably isn't tied.
Vanderbilt gives almost no academic scholarships to anyone. They have a huge endowment, and they give generous financial aid based on need, mostly in the form of outright grants. Baseball players with financial need supposedly get the same aid as any other student.
@anotherparent posted:Vanderbilt gives almost no academic scholarships to anyone. They have a huge endowment, and they give generous financial aid based on need, mostly in the form of outright grants. Baseball players with financial need supposedly get the same aid as any other student.
It’s pretty clear that Corbin has figured out how to maximize the situation to benefit his baseball program. My bet is that the baseball players get more than their fair share of “need based financial aid” which is determined by how important they are to the baseball program. Just a hunch.
@adbono posted:It’s pretty clear that Corbin has figured out how to maximize the situation to benefit his baseball program. My bet is that the baseball players get more than their fair share of “need based financial aid” which is determined by how important they are to the baseball program. Just a hunch.
Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck….
@RJM posted:Nick Sabin, Alabama coach can tell all his recruits this is the avenue to the NFL and becoming a millionaire. All 85 on scholarship plus walk ons believe it. It’s only the truth for about ten of them per class getting to the NFL. Half of those ten won’t get drafted high and won’t stick long term. But they all believe it. At other top programs the odds are lower but all 85 plus walk ons buy the sales pitch.
Kentucky does the same thing for basketball. Last year Brandon Boston went to Kentucky as a top recruit in the country. He fell on his face. He did the baseball equivalent of hitting .190 (shot 30%). I’ll bet he didn’t go to class after the first semester. Despite falling on his face he declared for the draft. He wasn’t selected in the first round. Only first rounders get guaranteed contracts. It turns out the Clippers gave Boston the first guaranteed contract signed by a second rounder in history for 2.5M. It’s really rolling the dice for a player who was a complete flop in his one year in college.
Once the coaching world has labeled the player as a "dude" they are very hesitant to admit they were wrong and remove the label. Happens in every sport but probably more often in baseball than any other sport. Which is why you see so many players that can't hit the breaking pitch still in the lineup at the aforementioned .190.
@LaunchAngle posted:Once the coaching world has labeled the player as a "dude" they are very hesitant to admit they were wrong and remove the label. Happens in every sport but probably more often in baseball than any other sport. Which is why you see so many players that can't hit the breaking pitch still in the lineup at the aforementioned .190.
I have to mention the "coach" is usually spot on when they see a "dude". Its usually the "dude" that can't figure out the mental side of the game. Cage warriors have always existed and always will. Whether one likes it or not, the "coach" cannot ignore the physicality that these players could potentially bring to the game.