Unprofessional Umpire

I think your son should have made an adjustment and the guy was trying to point that out to him.

If I were coaching third or in the dugout and heard that unprovoked as you have stated, I probably would have told the umpire to ump and let the coaches coach or something to that effect.

Our coach did discuss it with the ump. And Coach Bob, you are right. He did not adjust well but it really wasn't said in that way. Guess you had to be there.

After a k or 2 a guy can get a little thin skinned, but.... There is nothing to be be gained by him talking to the ump (unless it's about fishing during an injury timeot or something like that)

Just don't go there

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Bob:
I think your son should have made an adjustment and the guy was trying to point that out to him.

I agree that was probably the intent, but I'm not saying squat to a batter after a strikeout unless he does something. In no case am I telling a player a directive on how to do his job. If he doesn't do it, or does it incorrectly, that's on him. I have a hunch that the umpire in the OP is relatively inexperienced.

There's a difference, though, between telling player X to do Y and addressing an issue. For example, on missed swings, often a batter will ask if it was a strike, and I'll tell him. If I ball a pitch because I can't see it, I'll let the catcher know that I can't see that pitch. If he wants to adjust, he will. If he doesn't, he's making his pitcher work harder.

No reason to say anything especially if the batter doesn't speak.

I am curious if he sighed, rolled his head or eyes or some clear indication about displeasure with the call as he turned from the box. If he did that might be a reason why the umpire commented. It's possible the umpire thought he was being shown up by the player.

I was on the plate in a 10 year old Rec game. On a 1-1 pitch it was on the corner so Stirke 2. Kid steps out of the box looks at his Dad in the 3rd base box with his palms facing the sky and an exasperated look on his face. Next pitch didn't bounce or go over his head so Strike 3. Kid goes stomping back to the dugout. Dad comes running by and stops to ask "Too much on the second strike?" I said "Yup". He said Ok won't happen agian.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
No reason to say anything especially if the batter doesn't speak.

I am curious if he sighed, rolled his head or eyes or some clear indication about displeasure with the call as he turned from the box. If he did that might be a reason why the umpire commented. It's possible the umpire thought he was being shown up by the player.

I was on the plate in a 10 year old Rec game. On a 1-1 pitch it was on the corner so Stirke 2. Kid steps out of the box looks at his Dad in the 3rd base box with his palms facing the sky and an exasperated look on his face. Next pitch didn't bounce or go over his head so Strike 3. Kid goes stomping back to the dugout. Dad comes running by and stops to ask "Too much on the second strike?" I said "Yup". He said Ok won't happen agian.

I don't know if he sighed but I didn't see any eye-rolling or other gestures. He did not slam his bat down on the plate in frustration. I've seen plenty do that. He's frustrated about his poor hitting this season but he kept his composure. He admitted that it was very difficult. I'm proud of him for not talking back. I just couldn't believe that the ump would say that without a player saying something first. The ump was not young but I don't know his experience level.

It's all good. His teammates picked him up and they won the game. Hopefully my son learned something from it and hopefully the ump did too.

By the way, great story about the 10 year old. Most players could learn from that.

Some umps are simply a little too touchy. Last year one of the players on my son's private christian school team was called out on an awful called 3rd strike. The batter looked at the ump and said, "I'll pray for you". Ump got mad, threatened ejection. I would have liked to see him explain that one.

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That's a good one Tx!



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quote:

"just because you called it doesn't make it a strike,

Actually - it does.

I never say anything to a batter to who has just struck out unless he says/does something to instigate a "comment." I agree, that if your son did and said nothing after his at-bat, the comment was unprofessional.

We had a middle school umpire that was filling in for a varsity ump tell my son's catcher last year. "They won't give him that in D1 so why should I? If he is as good as they say he is he should be able to put it wherever I want?" the bad part is he said it loud enough for everyone to hear him.
Interestingly, before our coach could get there the opposing coach came running in to defend the catcher and my son. He told the ump the strike zone is the same no matter what.
One of the few times I have ever seen an opposing coach defend a player. I had to tell him afterwards thanks.

LuvBaseball, I understand but disagree. If you are going to make a point with a batter. Then just say it. You made up your own rules and that is not right either. I understand it is part of baseball some would say but you said to a 10 year old by your actions that the umpire doesn't have to live by the rules. He can make them up as he goes along. Give a warning and call the game the way it is suppose to be called.
Things like this is when umpires get a bad name and players don't respect them. If you expect the player to respect you then respect the game and the player and call it by the rules not the way you think it should be called.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Some umps are simply a little too touchy. Last year one of the players on my son's private christian school team was called out on an awful called 3rd strike. The batter looked at the ump and said, "I'll pray for you". Ump got mad, threatened ejection. I would have liked to see him explain that one.

He would have gotten at least a warning from me. That's not an issue of an umpire being touchy, that's an issue of a player arguing while being a smart-***.

Thin skin...good umps have thick skin and can walk away. Good umps don't have egos bigger than the game either.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Some umps are simply a little too touchy. Last year one of the players on my son's private christian school team was called out on an awful called 3rd strike. The batter looked at the ump and said, "I'll pray for you". Ump got mad, threatened ejection. I would have liked to see him explain that one.

He would have gotten at least a warning from me. That's not an issue of an umpire being touchy, that's an issue of a player arguing while being a smart-***.

Agreed. Definitely a smarta$$ remark.

Being a private Christian school means little when it comes to behavior and language of players and coaches, in my experience.

luv baseball - have to agree with Jeff Connell on this one. An umpire should just report what happened and not change the game for anybody. If you don't like the behavior of a 10 year old, speak to his coach or correct him before the next pitch. Changing your zone for a pitch ruins your credibility.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Thin skin...good umps have thick skin and can walk away. Good umps don't have egos bigger than the game either.

quote:

Being a private Christian school means little when it comes to behavior and language of players and coaches, in my experience.

It was to put the prayer comment in context. So, umps are allowed smart comments but players are not? "I've been calling it there all night, I don't know why you aren't swinging."...where the conversation started.

I think the ump was unprofessional there. We had something like that this weekend as we come down to the last 10 min and our pitcher went out and pitch 2 baseballs as call for throw down so we may get a nother bat if time dose not run out. We had the ump tell us he had 2 min break at the end of the ending. Not to sure where that rule is in hand book! He show his a$$ after that and that was his field and he play when he was ready. Out pitcher throw 8 balls down the middle of plate and he would not call them. Catcher call time and went to coach and told him where ball was and we just walk off field and call it game. There was no way we could go any more with umps not call game right.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

Being a private Christian school means little when it comes to behavior and language of players and coaches, in my experience.

It was to put the prayer comment in context. So, umps are allowed smart comments but players are not? "I've been calling it there all night, I don't know why you aren't swinging."...where the conversation started.

I never said what he said was appropriate. Your son's teammate's comment was inappropriate, as well.

And you never saw me say it was appropriate. I simply said I would have liked to hear the ump explain his ejection to an outside party.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
I think the ump was unprofessional there. We had something like that this weekend as we come down to the last 10 min and our pitcher went out and pitch 2 baseballs as call for throw down so we may get a nother bat if time dose not run out. We had the ump tell us he had 2 min break at the end of the ending. Not to sure where that rule is in hand book! He show his a$$ after that and that was his field and he play when he was ready. Out pitcher throw 8 balls down the middle of plate and he would not call them. Catcher call time and went to coach and told Lhim where ball was and we just walk off field and call it game. There was no way we could go any more with umps not call game right.

Huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
And you never saw me say it was appropriate. I simply said I would have liked to hear the ump explain his ejection to an outside party.

Your reading is as poor as your writing. You accused me of saying that what the umpire did was ok (even though I specifically said it was inappropriate,) and then when I addressed that part, you implied that I was saying that you thought the player was appropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

Being a private Christian school means little when it comes to behavior and language of players and coaches, in my experience.

It was to put the prayer comment in context. So, umps are allowed smart comments but players are not? "I've been calling it there all night, I don't know why you aren't swinging."...where the conversation started.

You must have read something I didn't write. I never posted that the umpire was anything but unprofessional. You seem to be hearing what you expect rather than what was said.

quote:

Originally posted by gindog:
I think the ump was unprofessional there. We had something like that this weekend as we come down to the last 10 min and our pitcher went out and pitch 2 baseballs as call for throw down so we may get a nother bat if time dose not run out. We had the ump tell us he had 2 min break at the end of the ending. Not to sure where that rule is in hand book! He show his a$$ after that and that was his field and he play when he was ready. Out pitcher throw 8 balls down the middle of plate and he would not call them. Catcher call time and went to coach and told him where ball was and we just walk off field and call it game. There was no way we could go any more with umps not call game right.

Anyone remember Junior Samples for Hee Haw?

I would just like to know why umpires have the liberty to make up their own strike zone.

16 year old tournament in Florida a few years ago. 7 inning game over in 1 hour 18 minutes. Score was 2-1 on a HR and couple of hits early in the game. Most of the "strikes" where unhittably (word?) out of the strike zone for both teams. Once the pitcher saw what was happening they never came close to the plate. I don't think Rod Carew could have adjusted to these strikes a foot off the plate and in the dirt. It was laughable by the end of the game.

How is this allowed? And how is this put on players to adjust to something that is so outside of the norm or rules, and that they hopefully will never see again

Agree with fillsfan..I was at agame this weekend where the strike zone was the size of tin can....batters learned early and just laid off until the pitcher grooved one or they walked...itvwas same way for both teams so at least he was consistent..
I was thinking that if was part of this crew I would call in sick when it was this guys turn behind the plate...the game went on for ever... I realize each ump will have their own strike zone but it should at least resemble what the strike zone is in the rule book

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I would just like to know why umpires have the liberty to make up their own strike zone.

on second thought...do they really HAVE the liberty or just TAKING it?

I encourage everyone to use the search feature and search for the thread "borderline Pitches".......its not the "100% clear cut" answer to any zone issue questions, but it features a dynamic dialog about the zone and a has a number of excellent responses by many of the umpires who post here and many good contributors from the site........

Now to the reality of it all....I am taking much of this response from a former thread here at HSBBW and I encourage you to search for it as it addresses much about the zone and how it is called. The thread was called "borderline pitches"

My zone is just what happens when I am behind the plate attempting to judge a 3 dimensional strike zone that changes based on the batters height.

If you can imagine an invisible floating column, 17 and a half inches wide that extends from a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and at the lower level is the hollow beneath the knee cap. The zone is determined by from each batters stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball....the strike zone changes for a 5'6" batter to a 6' batter......

All of this adds to each umpire having their own zone....even as we all try to adhere to the rule book definition.

It is just the reality of doing the job. I am known as an inside and low ball umpire. I know this from video tape of my cage work at umpire clinics. I am more apt to call a ball a strike inside and low than I am at the outside and high side of the zone. Its just my reality...maybe its because I am short that I see that lower ball as a strike. Dont know, not sure what I can do as a human to improve on that.

I try and keep as consistent a zone as possible to avoid problems, but it is what it is.

Given that, in games with umpires of my experience, you will get different zones...much of it based on such things as the umpires height, his stance and the quality if the catchers.....I have seen recently injured umpires behind catchers of dubious quality jump around like cats on a hot tin roof.....not surprisingly the zone was jumping as well......

I believe that most trained umpires call the rule book zone to the best of their ability....

I believe that trained Umpires all try to call the strike zone as described in the rule book. Going back on my training, again, I can tell you based on video proof, that I call the borderline pitch inside and low a strike, but the outside and up pitch a ball.....now that is defining "my zone" over the strict rule book zone....

Its a condition of my height, my stance, my experience and probably a hundred other factors.......I keep working to refine my zone to fit into the rule book, but truth be told, I probably won’t ever get it book rule perfect.....

I hesitate to offer this statement since usually this is the child’s way out, but I will offer that it isn’t as easy as it seems or looks….

But I will guarantee you that I will keep trying to get better......I attend clinics every year, where I will get cage work in....and I get evaluated every year…..

Despite all our efforts, I feel there will always be some variance.......but I will try to get better......if at any time I feel I am doing "good enough" and fail to work on refining my game......I will call it a career.......

Hope this helps explain my view…..

Let me compliment you on your honesty and hard work. The problem with most of us in tournament ball and high school is that most umpires do no training and clinics outside of what is required and many conferences and tournament officials require nothing. So we get umpires who want the money but don't want the investment. I know when I was calling high school and college that I invested hours reading the rule book, watching myself on video and working on my mechanics and strike zone. I hear these guys today say who cares it is just tournament ball or it is just high school. Which means to me "I don't care, I'm just here for the check."
Again, I compliment those who are doing it right and you can tell them in a heartbeat in how they call, how they deal with coaches, and how they deal with fans. They are not the ones that get into trouble unless they just have a bad day and all of us have them.
I am also seeing a problem in younger guys (a few older guys) that have this power trip ego problem. I am the ump and this is my world. I was told when I first started by a great umpire. If no one knows you were there or could pick you out of a lineup at the end of the game, you called a great game.
Again, thanks to those who do it right.

I think everyone one this site could tell stories about Bad umpires. After hundreds of games watched & Coached there are far more good Umps then Bad. To the original poster, I dont know if the Ump was being a smart A** or if he was trying to give a young player some advice. Probably wasn't the best time for it. If your Son struck out 3 times were the majority of the strikes swiniging or looking. On the 3 at bats what did your Son do on strikes 1 & 2. Could your Son have made contact on strike 3. I always tell my Sons with 2 strikes dont put your AB in the hands of an umpire. If you take pitches all game and you get something a little of the corner he will ring you up. If you can get the bat on the ball, SWING!! I'd rather know I did everything I could to hit the ball then hope someone I dont know gets it right.

Piaa_ump, let me graciously offer my assistance. I usually stand past the first base dugout, probably about 120' from home plate.

I lean against a 4' fence so my stance never changes.

I believe I have a perfect view of the strike zone. I've perfectly called games for years and can even judge trapped flyballs in left field.

Please, anytime you need my help with a ball/strike call, just look down the line.

I'm here for you and all umpires.

In my experience watching three years of varsity baseball is that HS umpires have a very big zone, especially on outside pitches. I see catchers set up outside (lefty batting,righty pitching)and the catcher catches the ball outside his left shin guard and it is called a strike. As someone who has some experience as an umpire I don't see how these umpires can call this pitch a strike. The catcher is set up so that if he catches the ball in the middle of his body it's on the black and a strike. If he has to reach to get the ball......it can't be a strike.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
LuvBaseball, I understand but disagree. If you are going to make a point with a batter. Then just say it. You made up your own rules and that is not right either. I understand it is part of baseball some would say but you said to a 10 year old by your actions that the umpire doesn't have to live by the rules. He can make them up as he goes along. Give a warning and call the game the way it is suppose to be called.
Things like this is when umpires get a bad name and players don't respect them. If you expect the player to respect you then respect the game and the player and call it by the rules not the way you think it should be called.

Jeff - Fair enough. I will disagree with you that the strike zone is the strike zone based on the level of play. If I called the same strike zone at most 10 year old Rec leagues that gets used at a HS game the ball would rarely get hit. They don't have enough control to hit the zone consistently so in order to keep the game moving anything borderline goes the pitchers way. Anyone who'd want it to be different justs needs to stand and watch a 75 pitch inning where there are 11 walks and the bat is swung 5 times to know what it would mean if the zone's were not slightly expanded.

If that means I am making up rules and that I am risking respect of the coaches/parents/partners etc. it hasn't been a problem for me yet. Not going to the majors but 95%+ of my games come and go without incident and I am one of the thousands of faceless/nameless guys behind the mask doing our best to keep games organized and moving so the kids get to play the game. Admittedly some days better than others.

forgot to add this in my reponse.....in the OP...the comment from the umpire, if unsolicited, was unprofessional....its not something I would want to do or reccomend to say...yet....

I probably have said something similar to coaches when asked about a certain pitch..that being said, with the exception of the catchers...I do not have much dialogue with players.....I teach umpires to be professional, cordial and approachable...not much more.....

To the post, I am only able to call strikes on pitches that arent swung on, hit or watched.....and in higher level games, trained pitchers may not throw very many actual strikes.....

If the young man was/is a good hitter Id suggest a change in his hitting approach.....3K's are more indicative of a flawed approach than an umpires judgement.....unless you are standing there with the bat on your shoulder, I rarely can affect a hitters game to that degree......

He's struggling and it's probably a head game now. As a parent it's frustrating to watch just as it is frustrating to him to be in a slump. My question was not necessarily what he needs to do...we all know that he needs to adjust and work his way out of this slump. I was more interested in your thoughts regarding the umpires unprovoked comment. His zone was questionable with some very low called strikes on a 6'6" kid. When he did reach down and get one it was a pop fly.
Again, his teammates picked him up and were able up get the win. That's why I love this team sport! Hopefully he'll come around!

quote:

Originally posted by cb12:
I was more interested in your thoughts regarding the umpires unprovoked comment. His zone was questionable with some very low called strikes on a 6'6" kid.

as to that, from my posts,.....unprovoked and unsolicited, the comment was unprofessional....no doubt.....

as to the low strikes.....also from my above post,...It can also just be the reality of doing the job. I am known as an inside and low ball umpire.

I know this from video tape of my cage work at umpire clinics. I am more apt to call a ball a strike inside and low than I am at the outside and high side of the zone.

Its just my reality...maybe its because I am short that I see that lower ball as a strike. Dont know, not sure what I can do as a human to improve on that. I try and keep as consistent a zone as possible to avoid problems, but it is what it is.

not that this helps, nor is it a definite reason, just trying to offer some insight as to a possible answer....... acknowleding that the umpire in question could just be an unprofessional untrained amateur....

And I most certainly understand the parental frustrations....been down that road with my own son....best of luck to your son....

If an umpire is really bad, the booking agent should fire him. The problem is, there are not enough umpires. gee, I wonder why? ;-) The men who would be good umpires can't be bothered, not enough compensation or they don't want to deal with the parents.

even at the professional level, pitchers have to adjust to the umpire's zone. They have scouting reports on each one and know what is likely to be a strike or a ball. Umpires are individuals and the zone varies - as explained above.

We get really irritated about one game, and that is the one talked about forever... don't remember all the good ones, do you?