Using baseball to get into better university?

If you're talking about the Ivy League, no matter how you get in you're paying your own way through school.

Leaving the money question aside, it is absolutely true that baseball can be the vehicle for getting into a college that you might not get into on your academic record alone. There are tons of threads on this board that discuss Ivy League admissions for athletes, and also for the other high academic colleges.

Now, not needing a scholarship might be attractive to the non-Ivy high academic schools such as Vandy and Duke. (It won't matter to the Ivy's since they don't give scholarships anyway.) But it could very well tip the scale for a coach who can then use his scholarship dollars on other kids.

Strategy for reaching them? Well, there aren't any real tricks. They have to want you first, or at least be considering you. Getting on their radar is no different that for any other player. Then and only then will the fact that you don't need aid of any kind come up.

quote:

Originally posted by inquiringmind:
Anyone have advice....
What would you do?

SCENARIO:

You are a talented baseball player that is being recruited by top 50 academic/baseball universities, your grades are excellent (but probably not good enough to be accepted into a top 10 academic university based solely on academics, i.e. Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth); you also don't need a baseball scholarship to attend college - you can afford any university - and your goal is to attend the best academic university possible AND play baseball.....Would you contact the schools you really want to attend and offer to pay your own way if they get you into the school?

BOTTOM LINE: Is there any way a talented player with enough money to pay for his own education could use this to his benefit....by getting into a higher ranked university?

HOW WOULD YOU APPROACH THE RECRUITING PROCESS???

What I think you are asking is would it be to your advantage to offer up the fact that you can "pay your own way" and will that help you get into a school that you might not necessarily get into. Most schools would say their admissions policy is "need based blind" (if that is entirely true is another discussion).

I think you will find that most applying to the countries top 10 schools will not have any difficulty paying their way in. Your best bet is to use baseball as "your special skill." Its all going to come down to your son's baseball ability and if it fits the needs of that coach. At top schools in the SEC or PAC10 you will need to be a top flight baseball player: at the Ivies, a step below.

Good points already in this thread.

Welcome to the hsbbweb inquiringmind

Your question has been asked before but maybe in a different form. What you really want is for some coach out there to be in love with your son's baseball ability and nothing more such as the size of his Dad's wallet. It's a nice thought but you don't want your son being the 35th kid on the roster because those types of kids never play. You want some coach out there doing whatever it is to get him to come there. Thus, imho, I would never offer that type of thing up front (e.g., doesn't need the money).

To answer the other part of your question, baseball indeed can open academic doors that might have been closed otherwise and we have hundreds of stories here just like that.

Lets change the scenario just a bit. Lets suppose there is a school out there that really likes your son and you can feel it. Lets suppose when it gets down to the time for the coach to make an offer, he says "I am out of scholarship money for this year, but I will make it up in the following years," "I see your son as an impact player here and don't get caught up in how much money he gets up front." Maybe at that point, in your family meeting on the subject, you say "You know son, if you really want to go there, let me worry about the money - you worry about the baseball."

In a similar scenario, suppose a school that is also attractive to your son offers a 25% scholarship. In that case you can weigh the walk-on offer from school A versus the money offer from school B. Perhaps you decide then that school B has more love for your son because they actually made a financial commitment. Moreover, suppose your son chooses school B for that reason. There would be nothing preventing you at that time, telling the coach "Coach we appreciate the scholarship offer but we would like to see you use that amount for another player as we can afford his tuition and living arrangements."

quote:

Using baseball to get into better university?......What would you do?

I would pursue those programs that:

1) want me for my baseball talent
2) I think I can earn playing time
3) fulfill my long term educational goals

The ability to pay your own way doesn't carry enough weight unless your last name is Carnegie, Rockfeller, or Gates and you plan to put up a new engineering building. As CD pointed out, you don't want to be that 35th player that the team took because your Dad bought a building.

quote:

HOW WOULD YOU APPROACH THE RECRUITING PROCESS???

I would table the financial discussions with a college coach. He probably won't care. He will be interested in what the recruit can do on the baseball field to win games and championships. I would pursue those schools that offer a superior education in your son's major while playing college baseball. There are many to choose from depending on your son's major, location and baseball level. Consider yourself lucky if finances don't enter into the college decision making process. Good luck.

Interesting points and strategies outlined so far.

For a truly complete answer, we'd need to know if your son would be happy playing on a team as the 35th man if it meant a step up in institutional quality or are you trying to achieve a balance between playing time and institutional quality?

Without knowing that, the advice given may or may not be applicable.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
Interesting points and strategies outlined so far.

For a truly complete answer, we'd need to know if your son would be happy playing on a team as the 35th man if it meant a step up in institutional quality or are you trying to achieve a balance between playing time and institutional quality?

Without knowing that, the advice given may or may not be applicable.

Great point. Nice to see you Chip!

Pursue these teams as prospective places to play without bringing up money. Let the coach bring up money. Don't be scared by the sticker price. Don't be afraid if the school doesn't offer athletic scholarships. There is academic and possibly financial money available. The coach isn't interested in your ability to pay until he's interested in your sons ability to play. Take it step by step.

The coach at a private academic D3 once started probing me for how much I could afford. He didnt ask specific numbers. But I knew what he was looking for. That was after he was interested in my son.

Excellent feedback.

Keep in mind that players don't recruit, coaches do.

Follow the advice given above, DO NOT ever indicate your financial situation until your son is in serious discussion with a coach.

in my mind if money is not a problem for the student it matters not when you inform the coach in fact if he knows early on it might change his thinking as to how much he likes the player

UPDATE:  We have strong interest from both Northwestern University (Evanston, IL) and Duke University (Durham, NC)....which program do you choose?  

 

Understand that both are excellent academic institutions; Duke has better baseball success/records (but that reduces chances of playing time); ACC generally a tougher/more competitive baseball division; NC weather wins easily over IL (however, we live 45 minutes from Northwestern - and father is also a scholarship athlete alum); campus appeal is equal for our son; scholarship amount the same; both relatively "small" schools/attendance...What are the non-obvious pros/cons?  We are from the midwest so a majority of our friends/neighbors/coaches are very familiar with Northwestern and the Duke name doesn't carry as much weight (in general...) - how are both universities perceived on a national level?  Can we even "go wrong" with either????

 

Thank you in advance for taking the time to offer your opinions and advice on this very important decision.

Congratulations and good luck. Keep in mind that strong interest does not necessarily result in an offer. The one I would like better is the one that actually offers. If they both offer, I think it is a no-brainer if baseball is an important part of the equation, and that answer would be Duke. You mentioned that the Duke name does not carry as much weight. I must say, I would find that astonishing.

Ok...thanks!  Let's say we have an offer from both, would you overwhelmingly suggest Duke?  fyi- I just meant to say that Northwestern is more familiar to people around our area than Duke....so they aren't as aware of Duke's national presence and prestige....

inquiringmind,

 

You have a private "Dialogue" message.

Let's say all are then equal in the mind of the player. While he might live in the Chicago area (and have a parent who went there) on a national level, IMHO as someone who lives in the NE, both would be top notch academic universities and carry pretty equal prestige. In other words, either decision would be right. 

 

Then maybe part of the decision weighs in with playing time on the baseball team, weather, pressure from the parent who wanted to continue their "legacy," and "going were you are wanted."

 

It sounds like this player has a pretty good decision to make.

Inquiringmind,

 

I would make another suggestion. It would apply to anyone looking at colleges in general, but esp. one who is in a lucky situation of having two colleges making offers.

 

 IF your son is in fact going to get two offers, and IF time permits in the process, try to have your son do an 'unofficial' visit to both, with no (or minimal) contact with athletics. Those two universities have fairly distinct 'vibes' to them, and he might in fact strongly prefer one over the other, with baseball out of the equation.  "Will I be happy here for four years?" is the key.  Let him have time to people watch and absorb the campus feel, sit in on a class, etc.

 

Student body characteristics (social/geographic/economic/ cultural/ ethnic/how cute are the girls hahah), overall campus spirit, location, not just weather which Duke clearly wins, but maybe access to 'real city' (no offense to Raleigh/Durham but it ain't Chicago!), how the students relate with each other, how they relate with faculty, the impact of Greek life for good and for bad, academic opportunities, career preparation,dorm life, and the many 'I can't put my finger on it but this place just feels right' aspect of a college choice is so important. 

 

 Either way, if it in fact does come down to choosing between offers from each of those coaches, your son is going to get a great education, of course.  But baseball related factors are only part of the picture. 

 

I've had kids do back flips over Duke, and some said they'd never feel at home there. Ditto for Northwestern. 

 

In the wider world, they have a very comparable academic reputation.

 

Hello and welcome to the forum.

 

From the few replies I've read, you have already received plenty of great advice such as Cleveland Dad's.

I would add that much of it depends on your families goals. Does your son have the talent to get drafted some day, and if so is that his priority? If so, then your scenario is probably not the best choice if you go strictly for academic considerations. However if I understand your question, using baseball just to get his foot in the door regardless of exposure/playing time, then by all means try that route.

If he is a serviceable player that can help the team(from the coaches perspective), but has no ambition to play much, then he will not be unhappy just as long as you make sure he feels that way.

 

As to going about it, I'd see if the targeted schools have showcase camps he could attend, as many of these schools probably do not recruit like the top baseball programs unless they have both (i.e. Stanford). Another option would be to go to a Academic Showcase where the majority of schools have high grades/score hurdles to be admitted.

 

Lastly, as CD pointed out, don't tip your hand too soon. Let the coach indicate interest/resources, then you can chime in about your ability to pay. Then again, some coaches will be very up front and ask something like "are you rich"? It may sound crass, but it happened once in my sons case. The coach wanted my son, but knew he was not going to have any scholarship money. He also knew the schools cost ($50K per year) was beyond many parents ability to pay. So he wanted to know if he offered a roster spot as a preferred walk on, would I be able to afford it. In your case, it might have been music to your ears, and you could have said yes. Sadly in my case, I had to respectfully decline even though it would have been a perfect fit for my son on every level. Instead he is at a decent academic school, but not very happy.

 

There are of course other factors to consider, such as what position your son plays, which might dictate a need or lack there of on a particular team. Also keep in mind that some of the top academic schools are not D1, so don't forget about the D2-D3 schools out there as possible fits for your son.

 

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"UPDATE:  We have strong interest from both Northwestern University (Evanston, IL) and Duke University (Durham, NC)....which program do you choose?"

 

Assuming you have a choice and cost is no object, choose the coach (school) that shows the most interest that your son trusts/likes. Nothing worse then 4 years, or less,  of a coach your son can't get along with or trust!

 

If your son has pro aspirations, like most kids, secondary consideration would be the league the school plays in, clearly that would favor Duke, even if they don't win a bunch of league games they are playing against top compeition that is being watched by pro scouts at every game.  If your son is not sure if he's up to the compeition in a top league like the ACC or doesn't have pro aspirations, don't go to Duke.

 

I didn't read far enough down to see this update before I posted.

I am not familiar with Northwestern, but I cannot imagine it has a better academic reputation than Duke.

Heck they call Duke the "Harvard of the south". That is not to say it would be a better fit for your son, as only you and he know that. But for an education and eventual degree, you cannot go wrong with Duke.

 

 

Rob's son attends Duke, I would follow his advice.

 

My son's very good HS friend attended, he actually had lots of trouble adjusting and he was an excellent player and student.

 

Some of these programs are NOT for everyone and so are the expense.

This is an outstanding thread. One of the real gems of the HSBBWeb is the availability of advice and content like this.

 

Both schools are great academically.  I think you received great advice about picking school based on where you feel more comfortable.  Chicago v. Durham may play a part as well.

US News and World Report latest college rankings for National Universities has Duke at #8 and Northwestern at #12. I would call that pretty much equivalent. Both schools are ranked above several Ivies... 

I must be missing something but how badly does a coach want a player if he won't offer him any money?  Do people think that coaches of expensive schools take on players just because they can afford to pay? 

 

Never sell your player short and never let anyone know he could attend for nothing, it just is not going ot work in the players best interest (baseball but maybe for academics), maybe sometime but not usually.

 

If you look at the rosters of these two programs, one has 33 players and the other has 30.  Most D1 programs don't need 35 on roster, so a coach taking on a non scholarship players really has made sure that the tuition was not a burden and neither is the player to the program.