Utility Players

MDBALLDAD,

He isn't free to  "pick a position and focus on it".  He needs to play where the coach wants him to play, where the TEAM needs him to play.

However, he shouldn't be concerned about being overlooked by colleges.  He isn't a typical HS "utility player."  Last spring, as a HS sophomore, the player:

--Batted in the top of the order

--Ran a 6.92 sixty

--Threw 2.1 poptimes as a catcher

--Made all the routine plays and most of the crazy ones as a MIF

--Pitched low 80's with excellent movement and control

 

 

 

How does he hit?  From my experience just going through this with 2016 and teammates this will be how college recruiters will view whether he is a position player or not. 

I am biased towards pitchers being the way to extend playing after HS as this is what worked for our son.  Only the elite hitters off son's very competitive summer team are moving on to the next level. Even low to mid 80s with pitchability and competitiveness the opportunities will be there   

 

 

What's he play on Summer team? Sounds like he may be fast but only has ok arm and ok reads-OF not best for him. Catcher, only ok, not great. They seem to be using him there 50% of time because they don't have anyone else. Sounds like w speed/hands a mif spot sounds about right. Actually I ve seen a lot of kids like him, good athlete who can play many spots on HS roster. What level can he play at college is what parents need to be aware of. Has he been to any PG events/showcases or anything locally to see how he does? How does he hit? If your not a P that's the most important factor. You can be good at defense positions but teams need hitters. Need to be good at both to play at high level in college. If your good hitter coach will find a spot for you. What's kid want to play?

A lot of times the best HS SS will become second baseman or utility players in college.  Seems as though he'd have best opportunities as a MIF; I'd be working intensely on footwork and glove work as a MIF, as well as improving hitting fundamentals, and get stronger.

Quick, gap to gap switch hitting MIF is recruitable....  Get stronger, and polish his MIF defense skills.

Gov posted:

A lot of times the best HS SS will become second baseman or utility players in college.  Seems as though he'd have best opportunities as a MIF…

 

Most of the reason for HS SS’s moving to another position is because there are approximately 15,000 HSV teams but only about 1,600 college teams. Add to that, that many of those teams have returning players at SS, so there relatively few places a college Fr can play SS unless they’re either a super stud or for some reason there’s an opening at SS.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Gov posted:

A lot of times the best HS SS will become second baseman or utility players in college.  Seems as though he'd have best opportunities as a MIF…

 

Most of the reason for HS SS’s moving to another position is because there are approximately 15,000 HSV teams but only about 1,600 college teams. Add to that, that many of those teams have returning players at SS, so there relatively few places a college Fr can play SS unless they’re either a super stud or for some reason there’s an opening at SS.

Concur... given the profile of this player, still sounds like if he honed his MIF skills and gets stronger, it would increase his recruiting probability...

What are his grades like?  Given improvement in the above and good grades it could open up other college doors. 

Those are all good questions.  The kid just loves to play so he has never complained about being moved around as long as he is in the line-up so I don't know if he really has a favorite position.  Hitting he is a singles hitter that squares the ball hits line drives, (actually slaps more from the left side) some doubles and triples, puts pressure on the defense but nothing is flying over the fences so I don't see his hitting aligning with the catchers position.  His summer team is the one I work with and where he moves around.  For HS he caught 100% of the time because that is what they needed he didn't play other positions at all. The summer team is not a PG level summer team it is more what I would refer to as a solid / strong regional travel program.  They win their share of tournaments in a 6 state area MD, PA, VA, WVA, OH, NJ, finished 24-9 last year and although there are good teams present the Evoshield Canes and East Cobb program etc. are not in these tournaments.  I don't believe he has showcased yet, if he did we (team) did not set it up.

It looks like most of you believe the same thing and that is he is probably best suited for MIF and there lies the problem.  I believe HS will keep using him at C, their SS is All-state and D1 prospect and for the summer team we have that SS on our team.  2017 plays SS when SS is pitching or the game after to allow rest and recovery (hence the 2nd best).  So even if he said "I want to be a SS" and focused all his energy on becoming the best SS he could (And I could recommend that) I am not sure he would find a good fit unless he totally changed his teams.  He is eligible to be 16U this year but he is playing with his HS friends in the summer which is an 18U team.

Anyway thanks for all the thoughts it helps to talk / write it out...Oh PS, Grades are excellent, he is top 25% of class with a 3.6 unweighted GPA.  I haven't heard SAT or ACT yet but he is a smart kid.

I had the same concerns with my son when he was younger because someone would ask what position he played and he had a hard time answering the question. However, looking back, it is the best thing that happened to my son because he learned to play every position and that gives him lots more value to a coach.

MDBBALLDAD: This is a topic that strikes close to home. 2015 played 6 different positions on HS team(no P/C/1B)  which was a state contender each year he was there. His D1 college listed that fact in his bio on website. Son played a good portion of 3B in HS and Legion because that was always the "black hole". Scouts who'd watch him there were puzzled as to why would a 6.4 60yd dash , 3.90 RH HTF runner play third? 

His Legion coach during his jr year told him "you're my everyday leadoff hitter, I just don't know where you are playing each game." When son was asked where he liked playing best (if there were 15 positions on baseball team - he would answer 3b 16th )he would generally say that his instincts are of a MI, though he could play OF (especially CF). We saw his versatility beneficial though in showcases where organizers would rotate players 2B, SS, and 3B. He would generally showcase as MI, though got film too on OF skills; he was the first one to speak up at showcase teams/camps when a manager was looking for someone to play OF for a few innings. When he committed to his college he was initially listed as UTIL (now IF/OF), which he found novel, yet still concerning. 2015 as it turns out will be regular 2B as he was given an opportunity in fall took full advantage and led team in BA. (He did play some CF as starter got injured).  

One of the posters mentioned if the UTIL player hits, he'll be in the line-up somewhere. I fully agree. Good speed also helps keep one in lineup. Your player should focus on strengthen a couple of his tools to be more recruitable (60 time and arm strength). His switch hitting now, it his best tool.

Thanks much RF that is good feedback I can provide to them.  6.4 is blistering so I am not sure he will ever turn those numbers but I agree working on speed and arm strength will help no matter what decisions they make.  Thanks again!

I agree with Freddy that he will need to play where needed for his HS team.  Sounds like that will remain as C but I have certainly moved similar players around in our HS program depending on the other moving parts at any given time.  Those players are such a valuable asset to a team.  

You addressed why he hasn't played much SS but what about 2b with summer team?  It sounds like he just needs to keep developing his overall game.  Keep working on developing arm strength.  He should probably continue getting as much side work as he can at MIF reps as well as OF reps while putting even more emphasis on continuing to develop his bat.   

What is his body type?  Likelihood of adult size?  

The thing that concerns me most, though, is regarding exposure.  IT doesn't matter what he focuses on if he isn't going to get seen.  Does he have a recruiting plan in place?   Will your regional team be getting him in front of the schools he is targeting?  If not, is he taking other steps?   It's time to get that plan in place.  The next ten months are probably pretty important for this player.  I don't think it is so much about picking a position as much as overall development and a good plan for school targets and exposure to those schools.  "Just loves to play" and "grades are excellent" will serve him well.

Thanks for the reply.  We will get him some showcase opportunities and one is a Woodbat that will be at a college he has interest in but I think the last part of your reply is helpful in communicating with the parents.  They need a plan if he wants to play ball beyond HS and right now I don't think that exists.  We can help with that but they need to think through what they want.  As always Cabbage Dad much appreciated!!

You can ask TPM, one of the pro players we both know well was a big time utility player in HS and in college. It did not matter much from HS -> college because he absolutely raked (plus-plus HS power), and for those saying hitting matters most... IT DOES. If the kid hits for good average but lacks power... that's not "hitting" really. Has to be projectable and hit for present and future power if he plays multiple positions. 

However the utility nature DID STRONGLY AFFECT his draft position out of college where he did very well after transferring. After years in the minors switching organizations, he finally dedicated himself to catching nearly full-time and has blossomed at 27 years of age, going from A+ to AAA and tearing the cover off the ball, earning himself a great contract in 2016. 

At some point you will ABSOLUTELY have to choose one position. Maybe not now, but understand the more positions you play, the more recruiters and scouts think you might not be good enough to handle any one specific position. 

Position doesn't matter. Skills and upside matter. Regardless of what position a player plays in high school he could be playing anywhere in college. The higher up the college baseball food chain you go you may find every kid on the field (outside pitcher and catcher) was a shortstop or center fielder in high school. Colleges recruit kids who can hit and are athletic. The exception would be the big kid who can outright mash.

My son was all conference as a shortstop and then as a centerfielder in high school. He's played seven positions in college. Whatever it takes to get on the field. A friend's son, now a major leaguer played first his freshman year of college. The team already had an all SEC shortstop. The kid became an All American shortstop after his predecessor left to turn pro. He's played six positions in the majors.

What is important is to develop hitting, throwing arm and running speed. If a kid can hit the coach will find a position for him.

RJM posted:

 

What is important is to develop hitting, throwing arm and running speed. If a kid can hit the coach will find a position for him.

+1

For baseball, I don't think one can overemphasize. . . "develop hitting, throwing arm and running speed."

JMO but my philosophy is jack of all trades master of none rings very true after HS.  

Showcase yourself in your strongest position, if you can hit, the coach will decide where you will go.  Kyle has got it on the money, one has to be projectible and hit for present and future power to play multiple positions.   Funny thing is unless you are the big home run hitter, everyone hits in college and the pros, the determining factor might come down to how well you play the position over someone else.

I am not familiar with many ML guys who  play multiple positions? Maybe I am missing something?

Player needs to formulate a plan asap.

 

TPM posted:

......

Showcase yourself in your strongest position, if you can hit, the coach will decide where you will go.  

 

Totally 100% agree with TPM.  In more cases than not, a high school position player will play a different position in college and he will have no input in that decision.   College is a different game.  The players are stronger, faster and more skilled.  I'd showcase in his strongest position whatever that is.

Hitting will get him in the lineup.  If he can add speed to that equation then it becomes more difficult to keep him out of the lineup.  JMO.

TPM posted:

JMO but my philosophy is jack of all trades master of none rings very true after HS.  

Showcase yourself in your strongest position, if you can hit, the coach will decide where you will go.  Kyle has got it on the money, one has to be projectible and hit for present and future power to play multiple positions.   Funny thing is unless you are the big home run hitter, everyone hits in college and the pros, the determining factor might come down to how well you play the position over someone else.

I am not familiar with many ML guys who  play multiple positions? Maybe I am missing something?

Player needs to formulate a plan asap.

 

I couldn't agree more with TPM's position.

My son played as a 2-way player in college. Prior to his senior year he was a relief pitcher and mostly outfielder. In his senior year he was in the weekend rotation, outfielder, and DH during the week. This is what he was recruited as, and he received a significant baseball scholarship because of that fact that he would play 2-way.

Looking back on it, I think he probably cost himself development as a hitter and position player... You can never spend enough time at both. JMHO

fenwaysouth posted:

TPM posted:

......

Showcase yourself in your strongest position, if you can hit, the coach will decide where you will go.  

 

Totally 100% agree with TPM.  In more cases than not, a high school position player will play a different position in college and he will have no input in that decision.   College is a different game.  The players are stronger, faster and more skilled.  I'd showcase in his strongest position whatever that is.

Hitting will get him in the lineup.  If he can add speed to that equation then it becomes more difficult to keep him out of the lineup.  JMO.

I agree a HS player will have no input on where the college coaches put him, but I guess my son was lucky.  In his travel ball days he was a "utility" player.  Could play anywhere.  In HS he started out at catcher, moved to 3B and then 1B - all coach's decision based on the "staff" he had.  Son was recruited as a 1B (JuCo and D2) which is where he did play at both schools, but there were times (especially his freshman year) he was anywhere but 1B - outfield or DH.  He didn't mind so long as he was in the line up.

TPM posted:

JMO but my philosophy is jack of all trades master of none rings very true after HS.  

I am not familiar with many ML guys who  play multiple positions? ------------------------------------------------

Here's a good one! <Nice acquisition Cubbies. Didn't realize he's an Illinois native>

http://www.baseball-reference....rs/z/zobribe01.shtml

Ripken Fan posted:

TPM posted:

JMO but my philosophy is jack of all trades master of none rings very true after HS.  

I am not familiar with many ML guys who  play multiple positions? ------------------------------------------------

Here's a good one! <Nice acquisition Cubbies. Didn't realize he's an Illinois native>

http://www.baseball-reference....rs/z/zobribe01.shtml

Yeah, I thought of him too. But there was  buzz indicating that he chose Chicago over other suitors because they wanted him to play 2b, not OF.   In general, I think MLB clubs would love to have more players who can play both IF and OF but it's just too damn hard to do both well.  As for playing C and IF,  obviously that does happen a fair amount, and the fact that it does shows that it's all about the player's bat.  Pitching and playing a position?  Can't think of anybody who has done it long term, but Jason Lane had a good run as a hitter and then battled through independent ball and MILB to make it back to the Majors as a pitcher, though only for a few games.

http://www.baseball-reference....ers/l/laneja01.shtml

For me a utility player is someone who regularly plays multiple positions regularly, not once in a while because they need the guys bat.

JMO

TPM posted:

For me a utility player is someone who regularly plays multiple positions regularly, not once in a while because they need the guys bat.

JMO

That's true in that usually the term is used for a bench guy who is capable of filling in at multiple positions.   The OP used the term to describe a front-line player (at his level) who can play multiple positions.  And that is what Zobrist is, what Lane tried to be, and to a certain extent what a catcher like Posey is.  I guess there isn't a common term for that because it's an uncommon role.

JCG posted:

Ripken Fan posted:

TPM posted:

JMO but my philosophy is jack of all trades master of none rings very true after HS.  

I am not familiar with many ML guys who  play multiple positions? ------------------------------------------------

Here's a good one! <Nice acquisition Cubbies. Didn't realize he's an Illinois native>

http://www.baseball-reference....rs/z/zobribe01.shtml

Yeah, I thought of him too. But there was  buzz indicating that he chose Chicago over other suitors because they wanted him to play 2b, not OF.   In general, I think MLB clubs would love to have more players who can play both IF and OF but it's just too damn hard to do both well.  As for playing C and IF,  obviously that does happen a fair amount, and the fact that it does shows that it's all about the player's bat.  Pitching and playing a position?  Can't think of anybody who has done it long term, but Jason Lane had a good run as a hitter and then battled through independent ball and MILB to make it back to the Majors as a pitcher, though only for a few games.

http://www.baseball-reference....ers/l/laneja01.shtml

In MLB, you will see more "utility" guys, especially IF/OF because it lets a team carry 12 position players and 13 pitchers.  13 pitchers will become the norm.  (until a possible CBA change with roster sizes)

Flexibility has value.

I agree in general with TPM.  You really need to pick a position to showcase in and you MUST be able to hit.  

However, I think most MLB teams like to have one utility guy.  With a 25 man roster made up of 12-14 pitchers and at least a couple of catchers, that utility guy can be quite valuable.  I'm sure everyone can think of the utility guy on their favorite MLB team.  The guy that comes to mind for me is Martin Prado.  He may be the best 2 strike hitter I've ever seen and can play anywhere.

However, I've never looked into it, but I would think most of those guys specialized in one position for at least a while before being used in this way.  They made it to at least upper level MiLB as a SS or 2B or some other position before the club realized they can fill in and play anywhere.  I wouldn't count on going to college or MiLB as a utility guy, unless you can MASH the ball.

Most of these guys played and can play multiple positions, or as we say utility guys. They also hit, that is why they are there, you don't hit, you don't play.

My own pitcher was the utility player of the year in our county, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could do that consistantly.  He was a pitcher. I don't think he would have done as well as he did if he played multiple positions.  Though he could hit, play ss, 3b and first and catch.

But what the HS player mentioned here does has nothing to do with what they do in college or at the major league level.   He really needs to focus in on one position, and hit to turn heads if he wants to play in college.  Thats why the question was asked.He probably is good and shows athleticism, but he still needs to showcase what he does best.  

Also keep in mind that all levels of college ball do things differently.  

 

Zobrist could play SS every day for any D1 program in the country and any minor league team. And probably half the MLB teams. He's a "utility" player because he can be. Not because he is one. There's a huge difference.

We ran into this years ago. Son #2 was a good-hitting RHP topping at 88, SS, OF, and could catch in a pinch. In a really well-exposed showcase (The Virginia Commonwealth Games), he played 3rd, SS, 2b, LF, and came in and closed a game on the mound. One of his instructors was hob-knobbing amongst the scouts and later told us that they liked him but couldn't decide where he fit best.  A scout later told me "He should stick to MIF; there are 1,000 kids throwing 90 mph out there, but there aren't that many good MIF's".   End of the story: he had a nice college career, starting all four years, all conference 3 of the 4, playing as DH/3b as a frosh, 3B as a sophomore, 2B as a a junior, and SS as a senior.  Never pitched in college...but he always thought he could and occasionally when a pitcher was getting whacked, he'd signal the head coach and point to the bull pen, normally met with a grin but no mound time.  I agree with the "jack of all trades, master of none" philosophy...and never forget the truest truism in baseball, "if you can hit, they will find a spot for you".

It seems like at the MLB level "tweener players" that have solid obp but only a little bit of power and fringy defense and speed have a hard time finding a job.

if you hit for power you find a job and if you are a burner with great defense that can make contact (Ben revere, Juan Pierre...) you find a job too but for those 8-12 home run guys with medium average without great speed or defense it is tough.

Kyle Boddy posted:

Zobrist could play SS every day for any D1 program in the country and any minor league team. And probably half the MLB teams. He's a "utility" player because he can be. Not because he is one. There's a huge difference.

Good point.

Thanks everyone for the thoughts and feedback.  Ultimately I need to find out more about the players and parents goals before I settle on a specific answer.  Many of the perspectives shared here are based on players who do, or have a goal to play high D1 or professional baseball and I am not sure that is the objective here.  All the input is invaluable and based on the feedback from talking to the player and parents I should be able to provide them with a thoughtful response that provides insight for them to achieve their goals. 

Just a disclaimer I will take full credit for all of your brilliance and share only generic credit, such as: "Some very knowledgeable baseball people believe..." , with the parents so my role as wise, old sage will be reinforced!!

You folks are the best, and thanks again!!

bballman posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

Zobrist could play SS every day for any D1 program in the country and any minor league team. And probably half the MLB teams. He's a "utility" player because he can be. Not because he is one. There's a huge difference.

Good point.

Great point.

Just hit for high average and hit doubles/bombs. That will solve the vast majority of position debates.

 Kyle, with this crowd easier said than done!

Kyle Boddy posted:

Just hit for high average and hit doubles/bombs. That will solve the vast majority of position debates.

Oh if it were only that easy

Johnnie C: "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" (1995)

 

"If you hit, you will not sit" (2015)

 

Kyle Boddy posted:

Just hit for high average and hit doubles/bombs. That will solve the vast majority of position debates.

We all know how easy it is for power and average against high level pitching. But yes, being Miguel Cabrera or Albert pujols helps.

 

it is true though of course. An elite hitter will find a spot and without power you need to be a burner on the bases and got in the field to get a spot in pro ball. Hitters have more leeway, even if it is just power ( like Adam Dunn or Chris Davis).

Apparently, it's contagious:

 

• Former Nationals shortstop Ian Desmond has long been rumored to be dabbling in the idea of signing as a Zobrist-esque super-utility player, andESPN.com’s Buster Olney suggests the Giants could be a fit for him in such a role. Desmond could be the regular left fielder, even see time in center, and function as a reserve or injury replacement in the infield, Olney reasons.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/...ls-desmond-baez.html

 

 

JCG posted:

Apparently, it's contagious:

 

• Former Nationals shortstop Ian Desmond has long been rumored to be dabbling in the idea of signing as a Zobrist-esque super-utility player, andESPN.com’s Buster Olney suggests the Giants could be a fit for him in such a role. Desmond could be the regular left fielder, even see time in center, and function as a reserve or injury replacement in the infield, Olney reasons.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/...ls-desmond-baez.html

 

 

I don't think a .290 OB is Zobrist-esque.

But nice spin by the agent, er, uh, espn content generator Buster Olney.