Some of you are pretty dang childish. Cant even debate a topic but rather go bashing...
I havent seen anyone provide any credible evidence showing a direct link between future injury and the age at which one starts pitching....funny how opinions on here sonehow carry so much supposed weight.
This back and forth is getting a tad tiresome. Perhaps it's time for all of us to move on...
The age at which a boy starts pitching will more often than not factor into the total number of pitches he has thrown by the time he has finished high school.
ASMI Position Statement for Youth Baseball Pitchers (Updated June 2012)
With the rise in elbow and shoulder injuries in youth baseball pitchers, the adult community needs to take steps to prevent these injuries. Research points to overuse as the principle risk factor. Poor pitching mechanics also contribute to injury risk. Another suggested risk factor is poor physical fitness.
Throwing curveballs has been suggested as a risk factor, but the existing research does not support this concern. However, a youth pitcher may not have enough physical development, neuromuscular control, and proper coaching instruction to throw a curveball with good mechanics. Throwing curveballs too early may be counter-productive, leading to arm fatigue as well as limiting the youth's ability to master fastball mechanics.
Thus, the recommendations for preventing injuries in youth baseball pitchers are:
1. Watch and respond to signs of fatigue (such as decreased ball velocity, decreased accuracy, upright trunk during pitching, dropped elbow during pitching, or increased time between pitches). If a youth pitcher complains of fatigue or looks fatigued, let him rest from pitching and other throwing.
2. No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.
3. Do not pitch more than 100 innings in games in any calendar year.
4. Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest.
5. Avoid pitching on multiple teams with overlapping seasons.
6. Learn good throwing mechanics as soon as possible. The first steps should be to learn, in order: 1) basic throwing, 2) fastball pitching, 3) change-up pitching.
7. Avoid using radar guns.
8. A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team. The pitcher-catcher combination results in many throws and may increase the risk of injury.
9. If a pitcher complains of pain in his elbow or shoulder, discontinue pitching until evaluated by a sports medicine physician. Inspire youth pitchers to have fun playing baseball and other sports. Participation and enjoyment of various physical activities will increase the youth's athleticism and interest in sports.
Also...
From the conclusion portion of a study entitled, "Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Edmund Kenneth Kerut, MD, FACC; Denise Goodfellow Kerut, MD, FAAP; Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD; and James R. Andrews, MD:
While youth baseball coaches should be aware of pitch counts and the warning signs of arm fatigue and pain, injury does not become manifest until years later.
As they used to say in the old neighborhood: "Nuff said!"
The age at which a boy starts pitching will more often than not factor into the total number of pitches he has thrown by the time he has finished high school.
ASMI Position Statement for Youth Baseball Pitchers (Updated June 2012)
With the rise in elbow and shoulder injuries in youth baseball pitchers, the adult community needs to take steps to prevent these injuries. Research points to overuse as the principle risk factor. Poor pitching mechanics also contribute to injury risk. Another suggested risk factor is poor physical fitness.
Throwing curveballs has been suggested as a risk factor, but the existing research does not support this concern. However, a youth pitcher may not have enough physical development, neuromuscular control, and proper coaching instruction to throw a curveball with good mechanics. Throwing curveballs too early may be counter-productive, leading to arm fatigue as well as limiting the youth's ability to master fastball mechanics.
Thus, the recommendations for preventing injuries in youth baseball pitchers are:
1. Watch and respond to signs of fatigue (such as decreased ball velocity, decreased accuracy, upright trunk during pitching, dropped elbow during pitching, or increased time between pitches). If a youth pitcher complains of fatigue or looks fatigued, let him rest from pitching and other throwing.
2. No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.
3. Do not pitch more than 100 innings in games in any calendar year.
4. Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest.
5. Avoid pitching on multiple teams with overlapping seasons.
6. Learn good throwing mechanics as soon as possible. The first steps should be to learn, in order: 1) basic throwing, 2) fastball pitching, 3) change-up pitching.
7. Avoid using radar guns.
8. A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team. The pitcher-catcher combination results in many throws and may increase the risk of injury.
9. If a pitcher complains of pain in his elbow or shoulder, discontinue pitching until evaluated by a sports medicine physician. Inspire youth pitchers to have fun playing baseball and other sports. Participation and enjoyment of various physical activities will increase the youth's athleticism and interest in sports.
Also...
From the conclusion portion of a study entitled, "Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Edmund Kenneth Kerut, MD, FACC; Denise Goodfellow Kerut, MD, FAAP; Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD; and James R. Andrews, MD:
While youth baseball coaches should be aware of pitch counts and the warning signs of arm fatigue and pain, injury does not become manifest until years later.
As they used to say in the old neighborhood: "Nuff said!"
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
Some of you are pretty dang childish. Cant even debate a topic but rather go bashing...
I havent seen anyone provide any credible evidence showing a direct link between future injury and the age at which one starts pitching....funny how opinions on here sonehow carry so much supposed weight.
Well, as my old boss used to say, It's the sizzle, not the steak. Relentless contrarianism, as opposed to measured debate, never wins friends, Skylark.
It's the sizzle, not the steak.
I recognize there is some risk in pitching, no matter what the age. That is not the issue. The issue is whether starting at a young age increases the risks later on- years later of serious injury. I would truly be interested to see a study on it, if such even exists. If one wete to make a list of contributing factors that led to serious injury what would that list include, and in what order?
I do find it interesting that I personally cant find any doctors list that includes "the age" at when they started pitching as one of the factors that led directly to the injury......interesting indeed!
I do find it interesting that I personally cant find any doctors list that includes "the age" at when they started pitching as one of the factors that led directly to the injury......interesting indeed!
Skylark - each human body is unique. They come in different sizes, shapes, color, weight and strength. Each human body has its limits to include limitations. There is no perfect formula, list, study or answer that would apply to each individual.
Am J Sports Med. 2011 Feb;39(2):253-7.
Risk of serious injury for young baseball pitchers: a 10-year prospective study.
Fleisig GS, Andrews JR, Cutter GR, Weber A, Loftice J, McMichael C, Hassell N, Lyman S.
American Sports Medicine Institute, 833 St Vincent's Drive, Suite 100, Birmingham, AL 35205, USA. glennf@asmi.org
BACKGROUND: The risk of elbow or shoulder injury for young baseball pitchers is unknown. PURPOSE/ HYPOTHESIS: The purpose of this study was to quantify the cumulative incidence of throwing injuries in young baseball pitchers who were followed for 10 years. Three hypotheses were tested: Increased amount of pitching, throwing curveballs at a young age, and concomitantly playing catcher increase a young pitcher's risk of injury.
STUDY DESIGN: Cohort study; Level of evidence, 3.
METHODS: In sum, 481 youth pitchers (aged 9 to 14 years) were enrolled in a 10-year follow-up study. Participants were interviewed annually. Injury was defined as elbow surgery, shoulder surgery, or retirement due to throwing injury. Fisher exact test compared the risk of injury between participants who pitched at least 4 years during the study and those who pitched less. Fisher exact tests were used to investigate risks of injury for pitching more than 100 innings in at least 1 calendar year, starting curveballs before age 13 years, and playing catcher for at least 3 years.
RESULTS: The cumulative incidence of injury was 5.0%. Participants who pitched more than 100 innings in a year were 3.5 times more likely to be injured (95% confidence interval = 1.16 to 10.44). Pitchers who concomitantly played catcher seemed to be injured more frequently, but this trend was not significant with the study sample size.
CONCLUSION: Pitching more than 100 innings in a year significantly increases risk of injury. Playing catcher appears to increase a pitcher's risk of injury, although this trend is not significant. The study was unable to demonstrate that curveballs before age 13 years increase risk of injury.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The risk of a youth pitcher sustaining a serious throwing injury within 10 years is 5%. Limiting the number of innings pitched per year may reduce the risk of injury. Young baseball pitchers are encouraged to play other positions as well but might avoid playing catcher.
PMID:21098816
Risk of serious injury for young baseball pitchers: a 10-year prospective study.
Fleisig GS, Andrews JR, Cutter GR, Weber A, Loftice J, McMichael C, Hassell N, Lyman S.
American Sports Medicine Institute, 833 St Vincent's Drive, Suite 100, Birmingham, AL 35205, USA. glennf@asmi.org
BACKGROUND: The risk of elbow or shoulder injury for young baseball pitchers is unknown. PURPOSE/ HYPOTHESIS: The purpose of this study was to quantify the cumulative incidence of throwing injuries in young baseball pitchers who were followed for 10 years. Three hypotheses were tested: Increased amount of pitching, throwing curveballs at a young age, and concomitantly playing catcher increase a young pitcher's risk of injury.
STUDY DESIGN: Cohort study; Level of evidence, 3.
METHODS: In sum, 481 youth pitchers (aged 9 to 14 years) were enrolled in a 10-year follow-up study. Participants were interviewed annually. Injury was defined as elbow surgery, shoulder surgery, or retirement due to throwing injury. Fisher exact test compared the risk of injury between participants who pitched at least 4 years during the study and those who pitched less. Fisher exact tests were used to investigate risks of injury for pitching more than 100 innings in at least 1 calendar year, starting curveballs before age 13 years, and playing catcher for at least 3 years.
RESULTS: The cumulative incidence of injury was 5.0%. Participants who pitched more than 100 innings in a year were 3.5 times more likely to be injured (95% confidence interval = 1.16 to 10.44). Pitchers who concomitantly played catcher seemed to be injured more frequently, but this trend was not significant with the study sample size.
CONCLUSION: Pitching more than 100 innings in a year significantly increases risk of injury. Playing catcher appears to increase a pitcher's risk of injury, although this trend is not significant. The study was unable to demonstrate that curveballs before age 13 years increase risk of injury.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The risk of a youth pitcher sustaining a serious throwing injury within 10 years is 5%. Limiting the number of innings pitched per year may reduce the risk of injury. Young baseball pitchers are encouraged to play other positions as well but might avoid playing catcher.
PMID:21098816
laflippin,
That is a good study and some good things have come about from the study. I have read this one several times and have found it to be informative. The ties to injury for these youth was a specific "overuse" problem however and not the age at which they started.
The drastic increase in injuries, especially with youth and high school pitchers, has been attributed to these risk factors in this order-
1. Pitching while fatigued/ under pain
2. Pitching too much/ too frequently
3. Pitching year round
Recommendations for all studies have never included waiting to start pitching until older than 9-10 years of age.
That is a good study and some good things have come about from the study. I have read this one several times and have found it to be informative. The ties to injury for these youth was a specific "overuse" problem however and not the age at which they started.
The drastic increase in injuries, especially with youth and high school pitchers, has been attributed to these risk factors in this order-
1. Pitching while fatigued/ under pain
2. Pitching too much/ too frequently
3. Pitching year round
Recommendations for all studies have never included waiting to start pitching until older than 9-10 years of age.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Skylark - each human body is unique. They come in different sizes, shapes, color, weight and strength. Each human body has its limits to include limitations. There is no perfect formula, list, study or answer that would apply to each individual.
I completely agree. Even pitch counts/innings pitched now in little league and in high school are not a one size fits all. All of the medical guidelines out there specify a general pitching routine per age. None hoever make recommendations on the age at which one should start generally pitching. I reason this on the fact that Doctors realize that the age at which they start doesn't have that much impact in and of itself on injury but rather the amount they pitch, frequency, etc.
This is just an abstract, of course, not the full article. The abstract doesn't say whether or not the researchers attempted to establish the age at which their subjects started pitching. Starting age may not have been explicitly one of the questions the authors were correlating to injury rates in this study; however, that doesn't necessarily mean their data could not be analyzed to get at that question.
They may very well have started their 10 year study of this group with detailed information about each youth pitcher...it would not be surprising if each subject's profile inclued an estimate of when he started pitching and how much he pitched before the study commenced.. That kind of information would help to establish individual baselines for each subject at the start of the ASMI 10-year study.
One possible solution is: Get in touch w/ Glenn Fleisig via the ASMI forum, perhaps by PM. Ask him directly if the raw data that you are interested in might exist from this study, and whether or not it could still be used to explore this question. If your question/stance is compelling enough I imagine he might try to help you answer it.
They may very well have started their 10 year study of this group with detailed information about each youth pitcher...it would not be surprising if each subject's profile inclued an estimate of when he started pitching and how much he pitched before the study commenced.. That kind of information would help to establish individual baselines for each subject at the start of the ASMI 10-year study.
One possible solution is: Get in touch w/ Glenn Fleisig via the ASMI forum, perhaps by PM. Ask him directly if the raw data that you are interested in might exist from this study, and whether or not it could still be used to explore this question. If your question/stance is compelling enough I imagine he might try to help you answer it.
quote:Originally posted by slotty:
This back and forth is getting a tad tiresome. Perhaps it's time for all of us to move on...
From the conclusion portion of a study entitled, "Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Edmund Kenneth Kerut, MD, FACC; Denise Goodfellow Kerut, MD, FAAP; Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD; and James R. Andrews, MD:
While youth baseball coaches should be aware of pitch counts and the warning signs of arm fatigue and pain, injury does not become manifest until years later.
Very interesting to go to the link that stats provided as the questions asked and the responses, and laflippin's post above. I think that we all understand that there are general guidelines and everyone accepts that. Their pitch count recommendations begin at 9. This doesn't mean that beginning to pitch at that age is APPROPRIATE for everyone.
At 8 he looked like he was 10, I suppose that biologically he was mature for his age. Perhaps that, along with following a pretty steady routine of being careful his injuries have been minor in nature compared to what others have had.
Unfortunetly, each time, these minor things have set him back.
Keep in mind once your son leaves you have no control over what he does. It is not uncommon for starting pitchers to throw 100 innnings + in college. The work load becomes enourmous and still many players bodies are still not mature. As stated, you can keep throwing and throwing to build muscle but throwing doesn't strengthen tendons and ligaments and those are the things that breakdown.
For son, it may not have mattered most likely if he began pitching at 8, or 12. He did make it through the youth years, HS, got a terrific scholarship, a nice signing bonus before it began to unravel. My opinion is that EVERYTHINGa pitcher does is accumulative, good or bad.
Watching son struggle season after season with some injury in pro ball(no one understands that unless they see their child go through it), I still stand by what I have been saying for years. We would not let him pitch from a mound at 8. No way.
Am I presenting scientific evidence to support my opinion? No, I don't have to, I have learned that sometimes good old fashioned common sense is a whole lot easier to understand.
It's time to move on.
Right behind you, TPM. Last one off this thread please lock up and turn out the lights. And tell the landlady (Mn-Mom) Merry Christmas when you leave.
