Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:… I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught….

There’s a component to the answer that is very very seldom discussed. Just how much would velocity increase if all the madness centered purely on it was forsaken, and nature was allowed to take its course.

I’ll agree that velocity can be “manufactured” at early ages, but what does that really do other than put those with extremely good velocity at much more risk of injury because they’re in much more demand?

And in the end, how does anyone really know that a player who eventually throws say 94 as a 20YO wouldn’t have gotten there no matter what he did to maximize his velocity from 8 to 19?

The part of it that has always kinda made me shake my head in wonder is, when great pitchers are talked about, it isn’t that they suddenly learned how to throw hard, in fact its quite the opposite. Its when they learn that other things like control and movement are mixed in, that they’re spoken of as PITCHERS rather than THROWERS. Of course there’s a huge individual component to it.

I tend to think that velocity is something that will come naturaly. I believe there are things that can be done to help that along, but being able to throw 90+ is either in the genes or not.

I think focusing on accuracy is the right answer. However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. If you don't have accuracy, you won't last very long on the mound. If you are up there walking guys and hitting guys, no matter how hard you throw, you won't be given a chance.

Mechanics are very important. I think the correct mechanics will serve to help minimize the chances of injury, improve accuracy AND improve velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
…However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. …

Far too many folks wrongly ASSUME that if someone like you or I doesn’t kiss the velocity ring, we think its not very important, but usually that’s far from the truth. As you noted, velocity is important, but there are other things that go with it. Personally, I’d like a guy who throws a 100+mph FB, an 80mph CU, a hook that breaks 3’, a sinker that drops a foot and breaks to the pitching hand side another foot, and are all thrown at 80%+ strike percentage.

Sadly though, that only describes what some parents BELIEVE is true about their son. In truth, it describes no one, but there are a lot of different ways to get to a high level of success, and for every pitcher its slightly different.

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the input.

Velocity and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. They are complementing factors. The same training that focuses on core strength, balance, and proper mechanic maximizes both velocity and accuracy.

BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
… BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.

What evidence is there proving that, other than what people think is true. One only needs to look at a pitcher who throw ‘pus’ and is expected to get pounded around, but doesn’t, to see that low velocity isn’t a guarantee of anything.

The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.

I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.

Here's the other thing. I believe you are correct about getting to the MLB level when you are throwing in the 90's. However, as a youth pitcher, if you are out there playing tournaments and you can't throw a strike, you won't be out there long. If you focus on mechanics and accuracy as a youth, those attributes will serve you well as you move up the ladder.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying velocity isn't important. To get into the MLB and into many college programs, it is imperative. However, we are talking about advice for youth pitchers. Velocity will come with age and strength - along with decent mechanics. I still say focus on accuracy with the caveat that velocity is important as well.

Velocity determines if you're a MLB prospect.

When or how that velocity happens doesn't make much difference.

Accuracy, movement, and everything else separates those who have the necessary velocity. A few might sneak by without the necessary velocity.

There really is no reason to think otherwise. Among all those so called "Radar Gun Lovers" is the scouting community. In fact, it's the scouting community that purchases most of the Radar Guns.

Every report turned in will include one thing... Velocity. No reports that mention, good control, good curve ball, good change up, with no mention of velocity.

There is still a place for those who are good pitchers lacking velocity. But very few of these type pitchers will be draft picks or recruited at high level DI colleges.

Those of us that believe in the importance of velocity, didn't just decide on our own. We are just following what is going on.

Remember this, there are many examples where the velocity comes late. My own son went from mid 80s in HS to mid 90s a couple years later. Went from no DI interest to serious pro interest in one year.

There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.

This is correct. Bum, Jr. long-tossed year-round, even in winter but also regularly received mechanical training from a D1 college pitching coach (not the coach of his eventual school, who nearly ruined him). All of the training, core work, long-tossing, band work, and plyometrics led to the same goal: Increased velocity AND command.

Like I said earlier, velocity and accuracy are two sides of the same coin. I'm not sure why people automatically assume the kid that throws hard can never find the strike zone. Actually, especially in college and beyond, the harder throwers are more likely to also have command.

Think about it this way. If you implant the idea into a youth pitcher to not focus on velocity, just work the corners, work on the offspeed pitches.. for what? Only to be told later you're not good enough to go to the next level (due to lack of velocity)? What's the point.

The primary focus HAS to be on velocity. Get that velocity first, and then learn to harness it and refine it.

I was looking at Bum Jr.'s travel team alumni roster this morning. It is chalk full of 86-87 guys that never took it to the next level. It also contained names of guys that were 88-90 in h.s. that are now in pro ball. Velocity was the difference.

BTW I am talking about h.s.-level pitchers, not 12 and 13 year old kids. I know two local guys that threw 90 at age 15 who eventually blew out their shoulders. So any parents of younger kids, CAUTION.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.

Putting thoughts of playing MLB aside, better velocity will get you into a better college program. A better college program may lead to better instruction, and possibly a chance to advance in the game.

I agree with both PG and BUM. We've had some heated discussions here about this and what advice to give young pitchers. Velocity, and more reliance on the FB, whether accurate or not.

Too many young pitchers using off speed and breaking stuff, then they get to HS and they see the guys throwing heat (and not as accurate) getting opportunities while they don't. And as PG mentioned, sometimes it comes later for some than others, never stop working on your FB, your mechanics, conditioning.

Most of those guys throwing heat in MLB didn't all have it in HS or college.

As TPM and others have suggested, this is a perrenially recurring topic.

TPM, PGStaff, and Bum have a tremendous amount of experience between them and their analysis and opinions of this subject lead to very similar conclusions....this is potent agreement and it rings true.

For most, some of the important levels of baseball to consider after youth rec ball are:

1. JV HS ball (if you were any good in rec ball, you should get a reasonable chance to play JV HS ball...that's where the honeymoon seems to end).
2. Varsity HS ball (played at many different levels)
3. College baseball (played at many different levels)
4. Pro ball (played at many different levels)

I fully agree with the group here that says: An appropriate level of velocity is, with only a few exceptions, the prerequisite for making a transition to the next level, wherever you happen to be on the spectrum. Experienced scouts and coaches at every level know what velocity ranges work for their programs...it is the young players and/or their parents who often have the hardest time matching up their current ability to the various levels of opportunity in baseball.

The few exceptions to the "velocity uber alles" idea might include a demonstrated outstanding ability to get good hitters out w/ a specialty pitch or unusual delivery.

PGStaff said it well....whether you like it or not, every type of pitcher scouting report includes a number for FB velocity. Whether you think it's fair or not, it is very important to have a clear idea about what factors the next-level coaches and scouts take into account when making their judgements about you.

I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder

My son has set his own personal goals each season on what he wants to achieve. The biggest goal he has for each season is gaining a certain amount of velocity. His ultimate goal for hs is to throw and touch 90 his senior season. Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder.

How refreshing to hear that and not get how better it is to be successful throwing off speed.

I think sometimes when we try to instill that winning is more important over development that often happens. For a young player, it's ok not to be accurate, it's ok not to be the best because of wins. Those players often are the ones who find it very frustrating that being accurate wasn't always in their best interests.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
…Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.

If its so easy to throw a ball with a great deal of accuracy and movement, why is it that more pitchers can’t/won’t/don’t do it? I posit its because throwing with accuracy and/or movement is a skill rather than the blind luck of genetics.

stats,

I think we're going to see a profound backlash against invoking genetics as a too-easy explanation for physical performance (or lack thereof)...within reasonable boundaries, of course.

We seem to have quite a number of internet experts invoking the immutability of fast-twitch/slow-twitch muscle ratios these days without much obvious evidence that they really know what they're talking about. Meanwhile, successful athletes in every sport appear to work smart, work hard, and work continuously toward their goals....mostly outside of the public eye. Out of sight/out of mind, and with no special concern for the potential limitations of their fast-twitch muscle ratio.

One of my son's great coaches has always tried to instill this simple philosophy, "Do the right thing, even when nobody is watching".

It took awhile to figure out the full meaning of that simple idea....my first impression of it was too limited, I admit.

Stats,

No one is saying throwing accurately with movement is "easy". Yes, it is definitely a skill. A very important skill, that becomes much more important at higher velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Stats,

No one is saying throwing accurately with movement is "easy". Yes, it is definitely a skill. A very important skill, that becomes much more important at higher velocities.

True. But basing everything on high velocities for kids, which is what the OP was about, is IMHO concentrating on something that’s totally unnecessary. What ends up happening more often than not is, the kids with the abnormally high velocities are given the ball much more often, even though they may not have more success. That additional stress on a young arm is often the beginnings of later arm issues because of overuse/abuse.

Who’s gonna get asked to pitch for multiple teams during a season? Will it be the kid who has lots of success getting batters out with command and movement, or will it be coaches enamored with velocity seeking out numbers on a gun?

Not every 12yo player will play 2 or 3 higher levels, but there’s a lot that could have great success at the level they’re playing at. Why denigrate them by not allowing them to have as many opportunities as some kid who does nothing but throw the ball harder, often with not as much success? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is interested in putting money in someone’s pocket for “finding” them. Many kids just want to do what they can and have a good time doing it.

If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.

How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.

You have to train for velocity just like you do accuracy and you can do them both at the same time. Shouldn't you use flat ground to work on your stuff and the mound for velocity AND stuff? To throw hard from the mound, you have to throw hard. That doesn;t mean throw with your arm. I agree, it's an on going process, and yes you have to work on what helps with velocity on and off the field but you can't just say let's get accurate and worry about speed later on. I may be misunderstanding your point.

I agree with what Bum has said, velocity always should be the prime goal and always in the discussion. I refer to it as junk because IMO everything else is second to the FB. There are pitchers out there who rely very little on their FB.

Why wait for later IF velocity comes.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.

Offspeed definately has its place in high school. I have yet to see any successful varsity pitcher who just throws fastballs. Colleges and pro scouts definately look at the quality and control of a pitchers offspeed pitches. In high school, if you do not have good offspeed stuff you will not last very long.

High school kids have to balance between trying to compete and win and developing velocity to get them to the next level. Some of my sons best outings from last season were when he was throwing soft and had exceptional control. Then again, some of his outings when he was throwing hard were very effective also.

Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
…Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.

Excellent observation!

There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!

I don't disagree. Just keep in mind that when scouts and coaches evaluate pitchers its not all about the w.

For college you definitely need BOTH velocity and a solid offspeed pitch. But if all you have is a good offspeed pitch or two, your career ends in h.s. Period.

Learn to compete with the fastball first. Fastball is as its name implies: Fast.

Thanks for all the feedback. I have a lot to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!

Yes, but I remember h.s. baseball very well. Nearly every parent watching their son pitch at that level talked about their son making it to the next level. If we can assume the kid wanted it to, there were a lot of false hopes. At that time, I could look at the mere mechanics of the player and know that was not going to happen.

Decide. If you know baseball will end after h.s. great, throw all the junk pitches you want. If you think there's a chance, even a small chance, of competing at the next level, you need to learn how to compete with the fastball first and foremost.

And to get the most out of the fastball, you need solid instruction.

What I'm saying is don't think you're going to impress some scout with your knuckle ball or slurve when your fastball is 78. Even if you're 15-0 no one will care.

quote:

Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:
I currently do not have any young players, but I am asked this all the time, because I have a son pitching in College.

When he was young did we worry about velocity?

I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught.

Bishop,
Not sure exactly what age group you are referring to when you talk about working with young players but I think I can relate. Early on, I handled things similarly (focus on accuracy) with LL and early teen age kids. Now, I don't think that was the best path and I do things a bit differently.

Generally, with that age I think it is best to teach mechanics, then effort, then location, all in a fairly short timeframe. From there, continue to refine, understanding that they are all interlinked. Long toss w/ proper mechanics is an important piece as well. This puts a young player on a path that allows them to maximize their velocity potential down the road when specific conditioning and natural growth are added to the mix.

I thanks you all for your input.

I get these questions because my son plays in college with aspirations to play beyond.

I think most of the people asking hope the same for there son.

I will probably be updating my advice and telling with peoples suggestions.

After reading every thing I believe Cabbage Dad's last post probably sums up best what I have taken from this thread.

I will also stress, as I already do, to have a good weight program. But this is another discussion.

Thanks a lot for all the responses.

Bum yours were especially helpful. Why most of these kids may never get to college I would still like to provide the proper advice to help them achieve it.

Bum,

Sure, almost all parents of all pitchers talk about their son pitching at the next level. So what? Almost all parents of all hitters do the same thing. What percentage of them is going to play at that next level though? As my dad said, “Wish in one hand and doo-doo in the other and see which one fills up first”. The fact remains that the percentage of innings thrown by HS pitchers who throw 85+ leaves one heck of a lot of innings to pitch.

And why is it that saying velocity isn’t the highest priority automatically means throwing nothing but “junk pitches”? What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence? If you do, you’re kidding yourself, and you don’t know much about the game.

Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence?

I agree. But, the margin of error at the next level is exceedingly smaller. And the "stuff" that profiles to be above average in high school isn't always above average at the next level. Coaches and scouts are aware of the talent parallels and actively seek out high school talent as such.

quote:

As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.

I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.

I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Bum,

you don’t know much about the game.

This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Bum,

you don’t know much about the game.

This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

Bum,
that is just really too funny!

Whereas velocity is king to get to the next level, I have never heard of a prospect in hs who doesnt work on his control and the movement and quality of all his pitches. My son really struggled this year with his breaking ball and spent a lot of time both in games and in bullpens on learning to better control it. Of course his main overall concern is keeping his arm healthy and building fastball velocity to get him better options of playing at the next level. But, in truth, he spent more time this year on his breaking ball than anything else. Why? Because 75% of hits and runs were coming off of hung sliders. Here is what I have noticed-

Higher velocity in HS pitchers is almost always accompanied with said pitcher to also have above average general control and above average quality in his offspeed pitches. They all go hand in hand. Good HS pitching prospects spend more time working on all facets of their game.

That's right, Skylark. The top pitchers learn to locate their fastballs but they also develop their other pitches. Unless your fastball is 90+ out of h.s. you still have to have an offspeed pitch for D1 colleges to be interested. After all, they are paid to win NOW not develop. The pros would most like be interested, though. They have time to develop a pitcher out of h.s.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

I love it when great minds like yours throw out of context quotes out there, then make some kind of comment that makes it seem as though the person you quoted is some kind of fool. The comment you quoted was in reference to what came before it, not a statement in and of itself, and you know it.

So why not just comment on the entire statement? Do you believe all 99% of all HS hitters in that situation will pound the ball deep over the center field fence or not? Why do you believe pitchers of all kinds of skills and potentials can’t have tremendous success in HS?

quote:

Bishop

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.

Maybe you need to go back and read the OP again, because that’s what I was basing my responses on. And again, you characterize pitchers with a “slower FB” as throwing “off speed after off speed”, with what proof? Just because a kid tops out at less than 85 doesn’t mean he doesn’t base everything off his FB. In fact, I’ve personally seen very few HS pitchers who throw that way, even with FBs lower than 75. The other pitches work because of the deception and differences in movement and velocity, no matter how had the FB is thrown. Given all other things are equal, will they work better with a higher velocity FB? Of course, but that doesn’t mean they won’t work.

So what if “most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS”? Does that mean people like myself who aren’t or who don’t have kids in the game any longer should be ridiculed or not allowed to post?

Stats- I'm not really following the basis for your argument. The question was about a young pitcher's focus on velocity vs. accuracy. It didn't ask if a pitcher can be effective at the high school level with a lack of velocity.

No one is arguing with you about anything. Of course there are many high school pitchers that are extremely successful with low levels of velocity. And yes, the truth is that those kids will probably not get a look at the next level due to that velocity.

What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?

All phases of pitching are important. It's fun to watch a slower velocity good pitcher carve up a good hitting lineup. Have seen it any times. Often referred to as pitching below hitting speed. There's no debating the fact that winning games can be accomplished without great velocity.

There are opinions and there is proof. No matter what I might think, the proof is provided by studying the draft and recruiting at the top college level. That shows us what is most important. It doesn't mean the others don't count. It doesn't mean they are not highly skilled. It just proves what the higher levels want. What they think it takes to help their team.

Also, all things other than velocity are very important considerations. That is why we see pitchers capable of throwing 90+ actually pitching at lower velocities. It's because they are able to add movement, accuracy, deception, etc., by subtracting velocity. Even at that, it's not always the guy who touches the highest velocity that gets drafted first. Good at 93 can be better than bad at 96.

The highest velocity pitchers we have ever recorded at PG events were not the first HS pitcher drafted. Few years ago, there was a HS pitcher that touched 101. Not talking about Colt Griffin. This kid went in the second round, after some 15-20 pitchers were selected. All pitchers before him threw at least low 90s or better. If it were velocity alone, things like this wouldn't happen. It proves the other stuff is very important and it also proves a certain amount of velocity is almost mandatory when it comes to decision makers at a high level. Obviously things are different when it comes to being a successful pitcher in youth baseball or even high school or even lower levels of college baseball.

Now it's always possible that some would debate that these decision makers are wrong. But there's no question about how they operate. A little research can give us the answer to that. Maybe that will change someday, but for now... It is what it is! Speed counts... Running speed, bat speed, hand speed, fastball speed, even breaking ball speed. And when someone has the ability to throw upper 80 sliders or 80+ curve balls they're not going to pick the guy with a low 80s fastball?

Is there more to baseball than the higher levels? Absolutely! And it's all great! Should young kids hope and dream? Absolutely! Should they understand how it works? I think they should because they're going to find out at some point. Knowing what it takes and trying to get there can prove to be very valuable even if things don't work out. It's the only way to reach anything near your potential. When that happens it's a great accomplishment no matter how things turn out.

PGStaff--your org's databases contain the kind of data that could be woven into the narrative of a profoundly useful and insightful book, if you wanted to do it.

There's more to this than just numbers--it's how the numbers, expectations, trends, and hopes all fit together to tell one part of the always-evolving story of baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
…What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?

I sure thought the OP was asking specifically about young players. It said his son had not focused on velocity, but rather “accuracy and throwing strikes”, and that now the boy was playing in college. But as soon as velocity creeps into a thread, the next thing that takes place is, everyone begins talking about scouts and ML contracts.

All I’m saying is, that kind of thinking does nothing for the enjoyment of the vast majority of players who don’t have the capacity to be in the top couple of percent as far as velocity goes, and it does nothing to help teams play or win ball who don’t have the velocity studs.

Stats,
I think that you are making more of this thasn actually there is.

There is no argument that a good HS pitcher doesn't have to have high velocity. And for sure not everyone has it.

What I got out of the OP's post was what was more important advice to give to a young pitcher, do you work on developing accuracy or work on developing speed and of course you work on both. And of course it isn't just about having a FB, but secondary stuff as well. My opinion is, in order to have really good secondary stuff, you have to have a good FB to work off of. Therefore, my advice is and has always been work on that pitch and learn about the importance of throwing it hard, even if all you ever do is pitch in HS.

This board isn't all about just making the HS team anymore.

I understand that you had a pitcher that was very good in HS but did not make it beyond, for various reasons. What were they? Maybe he wasn't interested?

You can't tell me if you interviewed a pre HS or HS travel team you won't get anyone telling you that they are not interested in playing beyond HS.

FWIW, the cardinals just protected 4 pitchers in their system for the 40 man roster out of possibly many that even held better ERA's and w-l.

What would you suppose the reason was? It could be the same reason a college coach recruits a pitcher with higher velocity over one that relies more on his breaking stuff to get people out.

JMO.

TPM,

It seems you just can’t help yourself, slipping back into the velocity above all mindset, but believe me I do understand. FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery. And FWIW, he pitched the same way in college he did in HS, relying on control, command, and using his FB only as a setup pitch, not an out pitch. In his final year in HS he was clocked as high as 89, which for a 5/9”/135# 17YO isn’t really all that bad.

But back to my original point, what about the 95% of players who never get to throw a 90+ FB? What are the chances that if they got the same number of opportunities that the 5% got, some would eventually prove to be just as effective? And that’s all I’m saying. I really don’t understand why so many people seem so afraid of simply giving opportunities to those pitchers who get batters out without all the hoopla a high K rate, especially when they are the norm.

We didn’t have even 1 pitcher on our roster this past season who could touch more than 84mp, but we came within a game of a section championship, so its not as though what I’m suggesting isn’t possible. It has only to do with maximizing the chances to win at the current level, without having stud pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery.

So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?

Where did he go and what was his record in college?
Share. He pitched 4 years in college?

Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?

I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.

Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.

Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.

This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.

Part of the problem here is that I don't believe it was ever stated what level a youth pitcher wants to attain. The OP stated that he is the dad of a college pitcher and often has parents of younger players that ask him if they should be focusing on accuracy or velocity. There is no question, you want to make it to MiLB or MLB, you need to be hitting 90 - at least. It is the majic number. So, what I see this has become is a matter of - if you want to be a successful HS pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to be a successful college pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to make it beyond college, what do you need to do? And there are obviously 3 different answers to those three questions.

I think different people have made valid points for each one of those categories, so I'm not going to go through all of them again. My son is a college pitcher who has yet to hit 90. I often tell him to keep working hard because if you want to go beyond college, you will need to hit at least 90.

Of a more general nature in answer to the question is the philosophical debate of whether high velocities can be attained by hard work and mechanics, or if there is a certain degree of genetics involved. There is also the question of how do you know if you have the genetics, unless you nuture your talent and do everything you can to attain that max velocity that is in your genes.

One more question is how young should a pitcher try throwing as hard as they can in order to throw with maximum velocity. I think if you start too young, you risk injury due to immature musculature, tendons and bones. So, if what I think is true, do you start with working on accuracy? And if so, what age does it become safe to focus primarily on velocity? Is it at 12yrs old, freshman in HS, or junior in HS? To be honest with you, I'm not sure. I know if your goal is to play pro ball or major DI, it needs to be sometime before junior year in HS. Or if I'm wrong, do you start at 7 years old trying to just throw as hard as you can?

I think bottom line is a balance of the two. As I stated in my first post, work on accuracy and mechanics, but don't forget that velocity is important. I will add that - at a certain point in your development, depending on your goal - velocity becomes paramount and that must be worked on HARD, or you will not reach the pinnacle - MLB.

That's my ramble and JMHO.

Good post with good points bballman.

I can't see telling young players throw as hard as you can, but rather concentrating more on the FB and mechanics at that age rather than other pitches.

Quote:
______________
Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.
_______________________

Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably. In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself. Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.
________

In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?

I’ll never know if he’d have been drafted or not, but there are other pro venues besides the MLB.

quote:

Where did he go and what was his record in college?

Why should I share that? All you’d do is pick at it trying to make me look foolish and him bad.

quote:

Share. He pitched 4 years in college?

No.

quote:

Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?

We have a pretty good idea why he needed surgery, and throwing too many cbs had little or nothing to do with it.

quote:

I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.

You can say anything you want to people, but even those parents with the lowest expectations huddle around a radar gun when their son is being “shot”. That’s why I seriously doubt you had “no clue” until he hit 90.

You’d be surprised at how much I know about you, and to tell the truth, since you want to know what my boy’s record was in college, that pretty much tells everyone how much importance you put on a “W”.

quote:

Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.

What percentage of players do you believe attend big tournaments, camps, and showcases? 0

quote:

Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.

That’s correct. But it also doesn’t mean they weren’t better pitchers either.

[/QUOTE]This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.[/QUOTE]

And there it is. You thought it was about reaching the pro level, and I thought it was about what was most important to teach youngsters. So because we had different understandings of what the discussion was about, of course you’re always right and I’m always wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably.

You couldn’t be more wrong. We won only one game with him on the mound against any team playing better than .500 ball, and of his 4 losses, all were against teams playing sub .500 ball.

quote:

In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself.

I am honest with myself because I have no kid on the team to sway my thinkin gone way or the other. In fact, when he was playing 3rd, the defense was weaker than when his FR replacement was in there.

quote:

Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.

As I said, I have no reason not to be honest with myself, and can say with all certainty that while you are likely correct in the majority of cases, in this particular case you couldn’t be more wrong.

quote:

In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.

Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.

quote:

Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.

___________

You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions. But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.

Stats,

Actually a few people filled me in on info on your son. I guess it helps to understand a lot about why you do post the way you do.

What other pro venues besides MLB could have drafted him?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Actually a few people filled me in on info on your son. I guess it helps to understand a lot about why you do post the way you do.

What other pro venues besides MLB could have drafted him?

Since “a few other people” know so much about me and my son, why don’t you ask them? Just a hint. Don’t always trust what “a few other people” have to say about someone or something like this.

quote:

Originally posted by smalltownmom:
You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions. But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.

Here’s what people more often than not seem to forget. In order for any off-speed pitch to be successful, it has to be measured relative to what the “speed” is that defines it. IOW, when you say off-speed, its only relative to what “on-speed” is. So in that sense, the FB is still the main basis of success, no matter what velocity it is.

The top pitchers in h.s. in our area generally were also hard throwers. Bum, Jr. focused on velocity, definitely, but also had a superb curveball. 125 k's in 59 innings in h.s.

The fastball becomes more important as you move up. Not because of velocity because at the higher levels they ALL have velocity. But because if you've never learned to compete with the fastball, learned how to command it, it will be pounded.

The top varsity pitchers around here, and I presume it is the same nationwide, all throw in the low to mid 80's with the elite throwers all in the upper 80's and low 90's. All of them whom I have seen who would ckassify as good or elite varsity pitchers, have at minimum, decent control coupled wirh at least one or more above average offspeed pitches. So I am a little unsure what exacly is being debated. For to be good in varsity ball one must have all three attributes to succeed regardless of their ambitions after high school. Good velocity, decent control, and at least one offspeed pitch. THOSE THREE ATTRIBUTES MUST OF COURSE BE WORKED ON before they get to HS varsiry ball. Whats most important? They are all coupled together and should be evenly applied getting to and through varsity hs ball. All good varsity pitchers can play beyond high school, it just depends mostly at tgat point your own ambition and talent kevel.

Every year around here I see kids who are upper 80's throwers who go to jc or other smaller levels of ball because either they lack control, grades, or basic ambition to go higher out of hs. I saw one kid in particular who thought for sure he woyld get drafted but lacked the control, emotions, etc. that would have got him there. He instead went to a small college.

wWe all know, as has been posted already, that velocity is a key factor in different options after high school. But, other factors do play a big role also as I have seen. Guys with lower velocities going to better college baseball programs becauae of their higher ability to control their pitches and better grades, etc.

The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.

At some point in youth age baseball, pitchers need to focus on certain aspects of their game. one of those aspects is velocity. I have seen a few pitchers who never focused on velocity and ended up being pitchers in hs who dont get the nod on the bump because they just dont throw hard enough. That all stemmed from never focusing on that aspect at the youth level. Whether you have genetics or not, velocity must be cultivated and grown. Some just have more natural abiliry to add more than others with the same amount of work. Varsity pitchers who cant at least hover at a minimum 80Mph will never be good hs pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by HayBull:
The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.

HayBull,

You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.

Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54, and of those, 11 wins and 5 losses have been thrown by a pitcher who can even touch 90. That leaves a heck of a lot of room other kids not nearly as gifted have to make up for. Now for sure in some schools there are more players who can hit that magic number, but for the most part, having to learn how to win without a kid who can do that is pretty commonplace. Since its so common, even in HS, why not just accept it and make sure the other facets of pitching are as strong as can be?

quote:

Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54,

Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.

If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.

Skylark,

I've actually seen HS pitchers that have been very successful throwing below 80 mph. In fact, there have been college pitchers that have been successful throwing around 80.

A while back I was at a AAA game and watched Jay Tessmer pitch. He was a closer that led the league in saves (google him). He topped out that day at 81 mph. Tessmer pitched in college at national power Miami and pitched briefly in the Big Leagues for the Yankees.

Truth is, anything is possible. There are always exceptions to the rule. Tessmer was a submariner, he threw a frisbee type slider as his main pitch. It was a very unusual pitch.

I agree that all things that help a pitcher should be worked on. Velocity, accuracy, movement, deception, etc. are all important. Often these things go hand and hand. From a mechanical standpoint, velocity and accuracy work together.

Every pitcher has a ceiling. This ceiling is based on natural ability and how much work is put in. Every pitcher should strive to reach his ceiling, whatever that might be.

The ability to throw harder than the next guy is important. The ability to throw with control is important. Everything is important! Sometimes position players with great arms and weak bat are converted to pitchers. Sometimes pitchers with great arms and lacking control are converted to position players.

So when it comes to velocity and accuracy... Why work on one when both are needed? We always hear people say, he is just a thrower, when describing someone with a great arm. Well, "throwing" is what pitchers do and they do it more than anyone. If you have the 5 best arms and I have 5 accurate soft throwers... I might win more games now, but as these pitchers develop, you will dominate.

So when you wonder why the pitcher who has more velocity and wins less games gets drafted or offered the big scholarship. It's all about the potential against a much higher caliber of competition.

Not everyone has the potential to throw with great velocity. But there is always a place for those pitchers who get the job done without good velocity. Be as good as you can be, that is what counts.

any good hitter will tell you they prefer to hit against heat rather than junk

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.

Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.

For those of us who are fortunate to have players in D1 or pro ball I can tell you high school baseball was just as consuming, just as serious, as now. I can remember fretful nights worrying whether Bum, Jr. would make the high school team. Going back further, I can remember wondering if he'd ever find a good travel team.

This is the father of a kid who was dismissed at each level along the way.

High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet. High school baseball is an important test, a turning point in a young player's life (or career), and while I understand you having reservations about those of us who have seen our sons go beyond high school baseball don't think for a minute we are not so grounded as to remember how important those formulative years were.

I remember. I remember each game, the conversations, and even the box scores.

These high school players, nearly to a man, are on the field to prove themselves worthy of going to the next level. Such is life. Fluid. Proud of the accomplishments of today but always thinking about tommorow and what might come. Because when you stop thinking about tommorow you fail to dream and in the end baseball--and life itself--is all about the dream.

The dream is always the next level. Having not achieved that level is not nearly as important as whether you tried.

Bum,

AWESOME!

Bum- Unbelievable post.

Baseball isn't easy. It never has been and it never will be.

Great post BUM.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.

You asked a question, then before getting an answer, automatically made the ASSUMPTION you knew exactly what I was saying. And of course, when trying to guess what someone has in their mind, as usual you’d be wrong.

quote:

High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet.

Then why diminish what I have to say? If you’re saying I put no thought into what I say, I can understand, but I assure you, I seldom do that.

In the end, all I’ve said is that there is no reason to get obsessive about velocity, because there are many other ways to combine pitching skills to be successful.

As for remembering box scores, I have to admit you’re a better man than I. I kept score and did the stats for every single game my son played that I attended, from LL Minors through college, and I couldn’t remember a box score of any game even if a gun was held to my head. Maybe that’s because I don’t look at any individual performance as being indicative of anything, but rather look at them as they fit into the broader mosaic of relativity to show improvement or the lack thereof.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.

If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.

LOL! There isn’t really any secret to it, is there?

I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that a pitcher can be successful without the high velocity numbers. Even PG piped in and gave some good examples of low velocity guys that have been successful even up to the AAA level. Shoot, look at Jamie Moyer. He tops out at 83 or 84 and is successful in the MLB.

The problem becomes that the higher up the ladder you want to go, the more the people who make the decisions want guys who are high velocity. Whether that is right or wrong makes no difference. You can be 20-0 with an ERA under 1 in college, but if you are throwing 82, you will not make it to MLB. Is that pitcher successful? Oh yeah. Will he make it to the MLB? Pretty definetely not.

You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
…You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.

I’ve never disagreed with that, other than to say, nothing is absolute. But it has nothing at all to do with what a young pitcher(lower than HS), should be concentrating on, or what you do with all the kids past that who pitch but can’t hit those magic numbers. The amateur game isn’t supposed to be all about finding the next ML pitcher. Its supposed to be about opportunity and development for players.

No doubt that velocity is very important and creates more opportunities to succeed at every level but there are a few that make it to the big leagues. Although it takes longer with more outstanding results along the way.

The Phillies brought up a pitcher, Tyler Cloyd, late in the year. He had to get to 15-1 with a 2.30 era in the minors in order to be called up. In a year when the Phils pitching was injured and not very good. The reason...he tops out at about 88mph. IMO the Phils didn't trust a guy throwing 85-90 could succeed at the major league level. Never any glowing remarks from Phils brass about him. (every Sunday a local paper reviews the minor league teams). If he threw 94-96 he would have been brought up long before the end of August.

He went 2-2 with the Phils with a 4.91 era in 6 starts. There is no talk of him making the rotation next year.

My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.

Every once in awhile, something is written that seems musical. Seems like it should be a "Title" rather than simply part of a sentence. "Stats" came up with one in his post.

"The broader mosaic of relativity"

That is a good one!

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
…My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.

And what does that have to do with young pitchers and what they need to do to experience success at the game?

It really amazes me that no matter how much I agree with what everyone says, because I hold the belief that the path BishopLeftiesDad took with his young son was a good one, I’m some kind of nut.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!

Or, as John Steinbeck might have said, "all the other stuff we don't understand".

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!

Or, as John Steinbeck might have said, "all the other stuff we don't understand".

Another good post Bum!

I get the feeling, TPM, that no matter what we say there has to be a response. Contrarianism is so annoying.

But just to egg it on: VELOCITY!

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
I get the feeling, TPM, that no matter what we say there has to be a response. Contrarianism is so annoying. …

Its truly amazing that someone can be described as being contrary to everything when he agrees with everything, but has the temerity to have his/her own thoughts as well. How does it feel to be a sheep, bleating the same kind of thing over and over with no thoughts of your own?

isit just me or is it heating up in here?

IMO, the most important is velocity, with some among of decent accuracy in the FB. Son, a freshman, has been throwing FB only for a few years and in the last summer camp, the HS coach taught him a simple CU grip and son has been able to pick it up real fast. The HS coach told the campers that he was only interested in FB and CU, no other junks, and he used son to demo to others how it's being done, inside FB and outside FB. I was so glad to find out that the HS coach had similar philosophy, he was a former D1 player. The only other stuff I probably need to talk to him is pitch count and see where his philosophy is on pitch count.

How about we just leave it as the answer is BOTH?!?!

Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.

Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?

Accuracy without velocity = No Bueno

Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

Velocity + accuracy… hmmm.

bballman,
Great comments, agree with your points. Have to admit it's always fun to see a great "pitcher" who knows how to spot his pitches and set up hitters.....all the better if he can do it while throwing 88-90+.

quote:

Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.

PG is right on.

There was a pitcher in the cardinals organization who was a non drafted free agent in 2006. His name is Brandon Dickson. If you look at his player page you will see that he had many awards and organizational ones as well for his stats.

He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.

Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.

As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.

BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.

Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?

Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.

I absolutely agree with everything you said. My post was in reference to the OP “Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers”. There are certainly many out there have or had great velocity and were given an opportunity to prove their ability to control the game and command the strike zone, however there are many more out there that have, let’s call it, “above average velocity” for their age that hit everything except the strike zone.

It's a matter of choice and philosophy in my son's case. When he came up from LL small field to the big field, he wasn't dominant pitcher with his FB anymore. He could drop his arms to create more movements and go with CB and sliders to gain back the advantage, or continue to work on his FB, inside and outside FB pitch. We pick the later one, that is to continue to go with FB with placement and rely on the fielders to help out. In the long run, he will grow taller and stronger and will gain back his FB advantage over the hitters. So, IMO, it is what type of pitch one wants to focus on and work on and that's what he will be good at.

Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.

Wow, makes you think. Makes sense though. When my son struggles with control, my advice is "just stride and throw, don't try to throw strikes, just throw it at the glove". I'm reconsidering my advice. Sometimes pitchers think too much and sometimes I think too much.

Funny thing is he started the clinic by asking the following question. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'4 Americans that throw 85? His answer was as follows. In the Dominican they just tell you to pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can at the target while in American all they worry about is mechanics, hitting spots, and making things look pretty.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.

I find that very fascinating because he is the pitching guru for the cardinals.
Now I understand why those guys are told to throw as hard as they can and not worry about location. That can be pretty hard for a young pitcher trying to get noticed by his stats, but in reality, the guys (rhp) that have the velo get the call.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes.

I always gave son one baseball to pitch to me. If he missed, he had to run after it. Now, he can knock a fly off a ... well, almost.

If you want to throw harder you have to practice throwing harder.

@ Sultan, LOL, My son is 8 and I do the same thing.

@ Skylark, agree 100%

@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.

ttpm---please be advised that mlkb pitcher would not be amlb pitcher if not consistently qaccurate

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:…I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.

That could be true, but then again it may well not be. It would make a much better case if there were more proof than the anecdotal evidence from individuals, perhaps in the form of how players were trained relative to their performance.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:

@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.

I am not sure I get your point, please explain.

I have seen young pitchers who have stellar ERA's but their velo for FB is just hitting 90, 91 get called up and get creamed, then you will see a 23 year old hitting 100 not as accurate get hitters out.
The higher you go up in velocity, the less accurate you have to be and you do not have to be 100% accurate to be a ML pitcher.

It's just an observation. I am in total agreement that if you teach the thought process to throw as hard as you can and not worry about accuracy for young pitchers they will figure it out later on.

Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....

If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.

Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.