Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Stats,

No one is saying throwing accurately with movement is "easy". Yes, it is definitely a skill. A very important skill, that becomes much more important at higher velocities.

True. But basing everything on high velocities for kids, which is what the OP was about, is IMHO concentrating on something that’s totally unnecessary. What ends up happening more often than not is, the kids with the abnormally high velocities are given the ball much more often, even though they may not have more success. That additional stress on a young arm is often the beginnings of later arm issues because of overuse/abuse.

Who’s gonna get asked to pitch for multiple teams during a season? Will it be the kid who has lots of success getting batters out with command and movement, or will it be coaches enamored with velocity seeking out numbers on a gun?

Not every 12yo player will play 2 or 3 higher levels, but there’s a lot that could have great success at the level they’re playing at. Why denigrate them by not allowing them to have as many opportunities as some kid who does nothing but throw the ball harder, often with not as much success? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is interested in putting money in someone’s pocket for “finding” them. Many kids just want to do what they can and have a good time doing it.

If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.

How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.

You have to train for velocity just like you do accuracy and you can do them both at the same time. Shouldn't you use flat ground to work on your stuff and the mound for velocity AND stuff? To throw hard from the mound, you have to throw hard. That doesn;t mean throw with your arm. I agree, it's an on going process, and yes you have to work on what helps with velocity on and off the field but you can't just say let's get accurate and worry about speed later on. I may be misunderstanding your point.

I agree with what Bum has said, velocity always should be the prime goal and always in the discussion. I refer to it as junk because IMO everything else is second to the FB. There are pitchers out there who rely very little on their FB.

Why wait for later IF velocity comes.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.

Offspeed definately has its place in high school. I have yet to see any successful varsity pitcher who just throws fastballs. Colleges and pro scouts definately look at the quality and control of a pitchers offspeed pitches. In high school, if you do not have good offspeed stuff you will not last very long.

High school kids have to balance between trying to compete and win and developing velocity to get them to the next level. Some of my sons best outings from last season were when he was throwing soft and had exceptional control. Then again, some of his outings when he was throwing hard were very effective also.

Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
…Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.

Excellent observation!

There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!

I don't disagree. Just keep in mind that when scouts and coaches evaluate pitchers its not all about the w.

For college you definitely need BOTH velocity and a solid offspeed pitch. But if all you have is a good offspeed pitch or two, your career ends in h.s. Period.

Learn to compete with the fastball first. Fastball is as its name implies: Fast.

Thanks for all the feedback. I have a lot to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!

Yes, but I remember h.s. baseball very well. Nearly every parent watching their son pitch at that level talked about their son making it to the next level. If we can assume the kid wanted it to, there were a lot of false hopes. At that time, I could look at the mere mechanics of the player and know that was not going to happen.

Decide. If you know baseball will end after h.s. great, throw all the junk pitches you want. If you think there's a chance, even a small chance, of competing at the next level, you need to learn how to compete with the fastball first and foremost.

And to get the most out of the fastball, you need solid instruction.

What I'm saying is don't think you're going to impress some scout with your knuckle ball or slurve when your fastball is 78. Even if you're 15-0 no one will care.

quote:

Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:
I currently do not have any young players, but I am asked this all the time, because I have a son pitching in College.

When he was young did we worry about velocity?

I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught.

Bishop,
Not sure exactly what age group you are referring to when you talk about working with young players but I think I can relate. Early on, I handled things similarly (focus on accuracy) with LL and early teen age kids. Now, I don't think that was the best path and I do things a bit differently.

Generally, with that age I think it is best to teach mechanics, then effort, then location, all in a fairly short timeframe. From there, continue to refine, understanding that they are all interlinked. Long toss w/ proper mechanics is an important piece as well. This puts a young player on a path that allows them to maximize their velocity potential down the road when specific conditioning and natural growth are added to the mix.

I thanks you all for your input.

I get these questions because my son plays in college with aspirations to play beyond.

I think most of the people asking hope the same for there son.

I will probably be updating my advice and telling with peoples suggestions.

After reading every thing I believe Cabbage Dad's last post probably sums up best what I have taken from this thread.

I will also stress, as I already do, to have a good weight program. But this is another discussion.

Thanks a lot for all the responses.

Bum yours were especially helpful. Why most of these kids may never get to college I would still like to provide the proper advice to help them achieve it.

Bum,

Sure, almost all parents of all pitchers talk about their son pitching at the next level. So what? Almost all parents of all hitters do the same thing. What percentage of them is going to play at that next level though? As my dad said, “Wish in one hand and doo-doo in the other and see which one fills up first”. The fact remains that the percentage of innings thrown by HS pitchers who throw 85+ leaves one heck of a lot of innings to pitch.

And why is it that saying velocity isn’t the highest priority automatically means throwing nothing but “junk pitches”? What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence? If you do, you’re kidding yourself, and you don’t know much about the game.

Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence?

I agree. But, the margin of error at the next level is exceedingly smaller. And the "stuff" that profiles to be above average in high school isn't always above average at the next level. Coaches and scouts are aware of the talent parallels and actively seek out high school talent as such.

quote:

As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.

I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.

I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Bum,

you don’t know much about the game.

This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Bum,

you don’t know much about the game.

This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

Bum,
that is just really too funny!

Whereas velocity is king to get to the next level, I have never heard of a prospect in hs who doesnt work on his control and the movement and quality of all his pitches. My son really struggled this year with his breaking ball and spent a lot of time both in games and in bullpens on learning to better control it. Of course his main overall concern is keeping his arm healthy and building fastball velocity to get him better options of playing at the next level. But, in truth, he spent more time this year on his breaking ball than anything else. Why? Because 75% of hits and runs were coming off of hung sliders. Here is what I have noticed-

Higher velocity in HS pitchers is almost always accompanied with said pitcher to also have above average general control and above average quality in his offspeed pitches. They all go hand in hand. Good HS pitching prospects spend more time working on all facets of their game.

That's right, Skylark. The top pitchers learn to locate their fastballs but they also develop their other pitches. Unless your fastball is 90+ out of h.s. you still have to have an offspeed pitch for D1 colleges to be interested. After all, they are paid to win NOW not develop. The pros would most like be interested, though. They have time to develop a pitcher out of h.s.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.

I love it when great minds like yours throw out of context quotes out there, then make some kind of comment that makes it seem as though the person you quoted is some kind of fool. The comment you quoted was in reference to what came before it, not a statement in and of itself, and you know it.

So why not just comment on the entire statement? Do you believe all 99% of all HS hitters in that situation will pound the ball deep over the center field fence or not? Why do you believe pitchers of all kinds of skills and potentials can’t have tremendous success in HS?