Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

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Bishop

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Originally posted by TPM:
I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.

Maybe you need to go back and read the OP again, because that’s what I was basing my responses on. And again, you characterize pitchers with a “slower FB” as throwing “off speed after off speed”, with what proof? Just because a kid tops out at less than 85 doesn’t mean he doesn’t base everything off his FB. In fact, I’ve personally seen very few HS pitchers who throw that way, even with FBs lower than 75. The other pitches work because of the deception and differences in movement and velocity, no matter how had the FB is thrown. Given all other things are equal, will they work better with a higher velocity FB? Of course, but that doesn’t mean they won’t work.

So what if “most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS”? Does that mean people like myself who aren’t or who don’t have kids in the game any longer should be ridiculed or not allowed to post?

Stats- I'm not really following the basis for your argument. The question was about a young pitcher's focus on velocity vs. accuracy. It didn't ask if a pitcher can be effective at the high school level with a lack of velocity.

No one is arguing with you about anything. Of course there are many high school pitchers that are extremely successful with low levels of velocity. And yes, the truth is that those kids will probably not get a look at the next level due to that velocity.

What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?

All phases of pitching are important. It's fun to watch a slower velocity good pitcher carve up a good hitting lineup. Have seen it any times. Often referred to as pitching below hitting speed. There's no debating the fact that winning games can be accomplished without great velocity.

There are opinions and there is proof. No matter what I might think, the proof is provided by studying the draft and recruiting at the top college level. That shows us what is most important. It doesn't mean the others don't count. It doesn't mean they are not highly skilled. It just proves what the higher levels want. What they think it takes to help their team.

Also, all things other than velocity are very important considerations. That is why we see pitchers capable of throwing 90+ actually pitching at lower velocities. It's because they are able to add movement, accuracy, deception, etc., by subtracting velocity. Even at that, it's not always the guy who touches the highest velocity that gets drafted first. Good at 93 can be better than bad at 96.

The highest velocity pitchers we have ever recorded at PG events were not the first HS pitcher drafted. Few years ago, there was a HS pitcher that touched 101. Not talking about Colt Griffin. This kid went in the second round, after some 15-20 pitchers were selected. All pitchers before him threw at least low 90s or better. If it were velocity alone, things like this wouldn't happen. It proves the other stuff is very important and it also proves a certain amount of velocity is almost mandatory when it comes to decision makers at a high level. Obviously things are different when it comes to being a successful pitcher in youth baseball or even high school or even lower levels of college baseball.

Now it's always possible that some would debate that these decision makers are wrong. But there's no question about how they operate. A little research can give us the answer to that. Maybe that will change someday, but for now... It is what it is! Speed counts... Running speed, bat speed, hand speed, fastball speed, even breaking ball speed. And when someone has the ability to throw upper 80 sliders or 80+ curve balls they're not going to pick the guy with a low 80s fastball?

Is there more to baseball than the higher levels? Absolutely! And it's all great! Should young kids hope and dream? Absolutely! Should they understand how it works? I think they should because they're going to find out at some point. Knowing what it takes and trying to get there can prove to be very valuable even if things don't work out. It's the only way to reach anything near your potential. When that happens it's a great accomplishment no matter how things turn out.

PGStaff--your org's databases contain the kind of data that could be woven into the narrative of a profoundly useful and insightful book, if you wanted to do it.

There's more to this than just numbers--it's how the numbers, expectations, trends, and hopes all fit together to tell one part of the always-evolving story of baseball.

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Originally posted by J H:
…What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?

I sure thought the OP was asking specifically about young players. It said his son had not focused on velocity, but rather “accuracy and throwing strikes”, and that now the boy was playing in college. But as soon as velocity creeps into a thread, the next thing that takes place is, everyone begins talking about scouts and ML contracts.

All I’m saying is, that kind of thinking does nothing for the enjoyment of the vast majority of players who don’t have the capacity to be in the top couple of percent as far as velocity goes, and it does nothing to help teams play or win ball who don’t have the velocity studs.

Stats,
I think that you are making more of this thasn actually there is.

There is no argument that a good HS pitcher doesn't have to have high velocity. And for sure not everyone has it.

What I got out of the OP's post was what was more important advice to give to a young pitcher, do you work on developing accuracy or work on developing speed and of course you work on both. And of course it isn't just about having a FB, but secondary stuff as well. My opinion is, in order to have really good secondary stuff, you have to have a good FB to work off of. Therefore, my advice is and has always been work on that pitch and learn about the importance of throwing it hard, even if all you ever do is pitch in HS.

This board isn't all about just making the HS team anymore.

I understand that you had a pitcher that was very good in HS but did not make it beyond, for various reasons. What were they? Maybe he wasn't interested?

You can't tell me if you interviewed a pre HS or HS travel team you won't get anyone telling you that they are not interested in playing beyond HS.

FWIW, the cardinals just protected 4 pitchers in their system for the 40 man roster out of possibly many that even held better ERA's and w-l.

What would you suppose the reason was? It could be the same reason a college coach recruits a pitcher with higher velocity over one that relies more on his breaking stuff to get people out.

JMO.

TPM,

It seems you just can’t help yourself, slipping back into the velocity above all mindset, but believe me I do understand. FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery. And FWIW, he pitched the same way in college he did in HS, relying on control, command, and using his FB only as a setup pitch, not an out pitch. In his final year in HS he was clocked as high as 89, which for a 5/9”/135# 17YO isn’t really all that bad.

But back to my original point, what about the 95% of players who never get to throw a 90+ FB? What are the chances that if they got the same number of opportunities that the 5% got, some would eventually prove to be just as effective? And that’s all I’m saying. I really don’t understand why so many people seem so afraid of simply giving opportunities to those pitchers who get batters out without all the hoopla a high K rate, especially when they are the norm.

We didn’t have even 1 pitcher on our roster this past season who could touch more than 84mp, but we came within a game of a section championship, so its not as though what I’m suggesting isn’t possible. It has only to do with maximizing the chances to win at the current level, without having stud pitchers.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery.

So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?

Where did he go and what was his record in college?
Share. He pitched 4 years in college?

Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?

I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.

Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.

Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.

This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.

Part of the problem here is that I don't believe it was ever stated what level a youth pitcher wants to attain. The OP stated that he is the dad of a college pitcher and often has parents of younger players that ask him if they should be focusing on accuracy or velocity. There is no question, you want to make it to MiLB or MLB, you need to be hitting 90 - at least. It is the majic number. So, what I see this has become is a matter of - if you want to be a successful HS pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to be a successful college pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to make it beyond college, what do you need to do? And there are obviously 3 different answers to those three questions.

I think different people have made valid points for each one of those categories, so I'm not going to go through all of them again. My son is a college pitcher who has yet to hit 90. I often tell him to keep working hard because if you want to go beyond college, you will need to hit at least 90.

Of a more general nature in answer to the question is the philosophical debate of whether high velocities can be attained by hard work and mechanics, or if there is a certain degree of genetics involved. There is also the question of how do you know if you have the genetics, unless you nuture your talent and do everything you can to attain that max velocity that is in your genes.

One more question is how young should a pitcher try throwing as hard as they can in order to throw with maximum velocity. I think if you start too young, you risk injury due to immature musculature, tendons and bones. So, if what I think is true, do you start with working on accuracy? And if so, what age does it become safe to focus primarily on velocity? Is it at 12yrs old, freshman in HS, or junior in HS? To be honest with you, I'm not sure. I know if your goal is to play pro ball or major DI, it needs to be sometime before junior year in HS. Or if I'm wrong, do you start at 7 years old trying to just throw as hard as you can?

I think bottom line is a balance of the two. As I stated in my first post, work on accuracy and mechanics, but don't forget that velocity is important. I will add that - at a certain point in your development, depending on your goal - velocity becomes paramount and that must be worked on HARD, or you will not reach the pinnacle - MLB.

That's my ramble and JMHO.

Good post with good points bballman.

I can't see telling young players throw as hard as you can, but rather concentrating more on the FB and mechanics at that age rather than other pitches.

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Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.
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Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably. In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself. Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.
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In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.

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Originally posted by TPM:
So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?

I’ll never know if he’d have been drafted or not, but there are other pro venues besides the MLB.

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Where did he go and what was his record in college?

Why should I share that? All you’d do is pick at it trying to make me look foolish and him bad.

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Share. He pitched 4 years in college?

No.

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Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?

We have a pretty good idea why he needed surgery, and throwing too many cbs had little or nothing to do with it.

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I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.

You can say anything you want to people, but even those parents with the lowest expectations huddle around a radar gun when their son is being “shot”. That’s why I seriously doubt you had “no clue” until he hit 90.

You’d be surprised at how much I know about you, and to tell the truth, since you want to know what my boy’s record was in college, that pretty much tells everyone how much importance you put on a “W”.

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Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.

What percentage of players do you believe attend big tournaments, camps, and showcases? 0

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Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.

That’s correct. But it also doesn’t mean they weren’t better pitchers either.

[/QUOTE]This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.[/QUOTE]

And there it is. You thought it was about reaching the pro level, and I thought it was about what was most important to teach youngsters. So because we had different understandings of what the discussion was about, of course you’re always right and I’m always wrong.

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Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably.

You couldn’t be more wrong. We won only one game with him on the mound against any team playing better than .500 ball, and of his 4 losses, all were against teams playing sub .500 ball.

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In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself.

I am honest with myself because I have no kid on the team to sway my thinkin gone way or the other. In fact, when he was playing 3rd, the defense was weaker than when his FR replacement was in there.

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Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.

As I said, I have no reason not to be honest with myself, and can say with all certainty that while you are likely correct in the majority of cases, in this particular case you couldn’t be more wrong.

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In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.

Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.

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Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.

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You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions. But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.

Stats,

Actually a few people filled me in on info on your son. I guess it helps to understand a lot about why you do post the way you do.

What other pro venues besides MLB could have drafted him?

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Originally posted by TPM:
Actually a few people filled me in on info on your son. I guess it helps to understand a lot about why you do post the way you do.

What other pro venues besides MLB could have drafted him?

Since “a few other people” know so much about me and my son, why don’t you ask them? Just a hint. Don’t always trust what “a few other people” have to say about someone or something like this.

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Originally posted by smalltownmom:
You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions. But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.

Here’s what people more often than not seem to forget. In order for any off-speed pitch to be successful, it has to be measured relative to what the “speed” is that defines it. IOW, when you say off-speed, its only relative to what “on-speed” is. So in that sense, the FB is still the main basis of success, no matter what velocity it is.

The top pitchers in h.s. in our area generally were also hard throwers. Bum, Jr. focused on velocity, definitely, but also had a superb curveball. 125 k's in 59 innings in h.s.

The fastball becomes more important as you move up. Not because of velocity because at the higher levels they ALL have velocity. But because if you've never learned to compete with the fastball, learned how to command it, it will be pounded.

The top varsity pitchers around here, and I presume it is the same nationwide, all throw in the low to mid 80's with the elite throwers all in the upper 80's and low 90's. All of them whom I have seen who would ckassify as good or elite varsity pitchers, have at minimum, decent control coupled wirh at least one or more above average offspeed pitches. So I am a little unsure what exacly is being debated. For to be good in varsity ball one must have all three attributes to succeed regardless of their ambitions after high school. Good velocity, decent control, and at least one offspeed pitch. THOSE THREE ATTRIBUTES MUST OF COURSE BE WORKED ON before they get to HS varsiry ball. Whats most important? They are all coupled together and should be evenly applied getting to and through varsity hs ball. All good varsity pitchers can play beyond high school, it just depends mostly at tgat point your own ambition and talent kevel.

Every year around here I see kids who are upper 80's throwers who go to jc or other smaller levels of ball because either they lack control, grades, or basic ambition to go higher out of hs. I saw one kid in particular who thought for sure he woyld get drafted but lacked the control, emotions, etc. that would have got him there. He instead went to a small college.

wWe all know, as has been posted already, that velocity is a key factor in different options after high school. But, other factors do play a big role also as I have seen. Guys with lower velocities going to better college baseball programs becauae of their higher ability to control their pitches and better grades, etc.

The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.