At some point in youth age baseball, pitchers need to focus on certain aspects of their game. one of those aspects is velocity. I have seen a few pitchers who never focused on velocity and ended up being pitchers in hs who dont get the nod on the bump because they just dont throw hard enough. That all stemmed from never focusing on that aspect at the youth level. Whether you have genetics or not, velocity must be cultivated and grown. Some just have more natural abiliry to add more than others with the same amount of work. Varsity pitchers who cant at least hover at a minimum 80Mph will never be good hs pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by HayBull:
The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.
HayBull,
You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.
Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54, and of those, 11 wins and 5 losses have been thrown by a pitcher who can even touch 90. That leaves a heck of a lot of room other kids not nearly as gifted have to make up for. Now for sure in some schools there are more players who can hit that magic number, but for the most part, having to learn how to win without a kid who can do that is pretty commonplace. Since its so common, even in HS, why not just accept it and make sure the other facets of pitching are as strong as can be?
quote:Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54,
Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.
If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.
Skylark,
I've actually seen HS pitchers that have been very successful throwing below 80 mph. In fact, there have been college pitchers that have been successful throwing around 80.
A while back I was at a AAA game and watched Jay Tessmer pitch. He was a closer that led the league in saves (google him). He topped out that day at 81 mph. Tessmer pitched in college at national power Miami and pitched briefly in the Big Leagues for the Yankees.
Truth is, anything is possible. There are always exceptions to the rule. Tessmer was a submariner, he threw a frisbee type slider as his main pitch. It was a very unusual pitch.
I agree that all things that help a pitcher should be worked on. Velocity, accuracy, movement, deception, etc. are all important. Often these things go hand and hand. From a mechanical standpoint, velocity and accuracy work together.
Every pitcher has a ceiling. This ceiling is based on natural ability and how much work is put in. Every pitcher should strive to reach his ceiling, whatever that might be.
The ability to throw harder than the next guy is important. The ability to throw with control is important. Everything is important! Sometimes position players with great arms and weak bat are converted to pitchers. Sometimes pitchers with great arms and lacking control are converted to position players.
So when it comes to velocity and accuracy... Why work on one when both are needed? We always hear people say, he is just a thrower, when describing someone with a great arm. Well, "throwing" is what pitchers do and they do it more than anyone. If you have the 5 best arms and I have 5 accurate soft throwers... I might win more games now, but as these pitchers develop, you will dominate.
So when you wonder why the pitcher who has more velocity and wins less games gets drafted or offered the big scholarship. It's all about the potential against a much higher caliber of competition.
Not everyone has the potential to throw with great velocity. But there is always a place for those pitchers who get the job done without good velocity. Be as good as you can be, that is what counts.
I've actually seen HS pitchers that have been very successful throwing below 80 mph. In fact, there have been college pitchers that have been successful throwing around 80.
A while back I was at a AAA game and watched Jay Tessmer pitch. He was a closer that led the league in saves (google him). He topped out that day at 81 mph. Tessmer pitched in college at national power Miami and pitched briefly in the Big Leagues for the Yankees.
Truth is, anything is possible. There are always exceptions to the rule. Tessmer was a submariner, he threw a frisbee type slider as his main pitch. It was a very unusual pitch.
I agree that all things that help a pitcher should be worked on. Velocity, accuracy, movement, deception, etc. are all important. Often these things go hand and hand. From a mechanical standpoint, velocity and accuracy work together.
Every pitcher has a ceiling. This ceiling is based on natural ability and how much work is put in. Every pitcher should strive to reach his ceiling, whatever that might be.
The ability to throw harder than the next guy is important. The ability to throw with control is important. Everything is important! Sometimes position players with great arms and weak bat are converted to pitchers. Sometimes pitchers with great arms and lacking control are converted to position players.
So when it comes to velocity and accuracy... Why work on one when both are needed? We always hear people say, he is just a thrower, when describing someone with a great arm. Well, "throwing" is what pitchers do and they do it more than anyone. If you have the 5 best arms and I have 5 accurate soft throwers... I might win more games now, but as these pitchers develop, you will dominate.
So when you wonder why the pitcher who has more velocity and wins less games gets drafted or offered the big scholarship. It's all about the potential against a much higher caliber of competition.
Not everyone has the potential to throw with great velocity. But there is always a place for those pitchers who get the job done without good velocity. Be as good as you can be, that is what counts.
any good hitter will tell you they prefer to hit against heat rather than junk
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.
Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.
For those of us who are fortunate to have players in D1 or pro ball I can tell you high school baseball was just as consuming, just as serious, as now. I can remember fretful nights worrying whether Bum, Jr. would make the high school team. Going back further, I can remember wondering if he'd ever find a good travel team.
This is the father of a kid who was dismissed at each level along the way.
High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet. High school baseball is an important test, a turning point in a young player's life (or career), and while I understand you having reservations about those of us who have seen our sons go beyond high school baseball don't think for a minute we are not so grounded as to remember how important those formulative years were.
I remember. I remember each game, the conversations, and even the box scores.
These high school players, nearly to a man, are on the field to prove themselves worthy of going to the next level. Such is life. Fluid. Proud of the accomplishments of today but always thinking about tommorow and what might come. Because when you stop thinking about tommorow you fail to dream and in the end baseball--and life itself--is all about the dream.
The dream is always the next level. Having not achieved that level is not nearly as important as whether you tried.
Bum,
AWESOME!
AWESOME!
Bum- Unbelievable post.
Baseball isn't easy. It never has been and it never will be.
Baseball isn't easy. It never has been and it never will be.
Great post BUM.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.
You asked a question, then before getting an answer, automatically made the ASSUMPTION you knew exactly what I was saying. And of course, when trying to guess what someone has in their mind, as usual you’d be wrong.
quote:High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet.
Then why diminish what I have to say? If you’re saying I put no thought into what I say, I can understand, but I assure you, I seldom do that.
In the end, all I’ve said is that there is no reason to get obsessive about velocity, because there are many other ways to combine pitching skills to be successful.
As for remembering box scores, I have to admit you’re a better man than I. I kept score and did the stats for every single game my son played that I attended, from LL Minors through college, and I couldn’t remember a box score of any game even if a gun was held to my head. Maybe that’s because I don’t look at any individual performance as being indicative of anything, but rather look at them as they fit into the broader mosaic of relativity to show improvement or the lack thereof.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.
If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.
LOL! There isn’t really any secret to it, is there?
I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that a pitcher can be successful without the high velocity numbers. Even PG piped in and gave some good examples of low velocity guys that have been successful even up to the AAA level. Shoot, look at Jamie Moyer. He tops out at 83 or 84 and is successful in the MLB.
The problem becomes that the higher up the ladder you want to go, the more the people who make the decisions want guys who are high velocity. Whether that is right or wrong makes no difference. You can be 20-0 with an ERA under 1 in college, but if you are throwing 82, you will not make it to MLB. Is that pitcher successful? Oh yeah. Will he make it to the MLB? Pretty definetely not.
You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.
The problem becomes that the higher up the ladder you want to go, the more the people who make the decisions want guys who are high velocity. Whether that is right or wrong makes no difference. You can be 20-0 with an ERA under 1 in college, but if you are throwing 82, you will not make it to MLB. Is that pitcher successful? Oh yeah. Will he make it to the MLB? Pretty definetely not.
You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
…You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.
I’ve never disagreed with that, other than to say, nothing is absolute. But it has nothing at all to do with what a young pitcher(lower than HS), should be concentrating on, or what you do with all the kids past that who pitch but can’t hit those magic numbers. The amateur game isn’t supposed to be all about finding the next ML pitcher. Its supposed to be about opportunity and development for players.
No doubt that velocity is very important and creates more opportunities to succeed at every level but there are a few that make it to the big leagues. Although it takes longer with more outstanding results along the way.
The Phillies brought up a pitcher, Tyler Cloyd, late in the year. He had to get to 15-1 with a 2.30 era in the minors in order to be called up. In a year when the Phils pitching was injured and not very good. The reason...he tops out at about 88mph. IMO the Phils didn't trust a guy throwing 85-90 could succeed at the major league level. Never any glowing remarks from Phils brass about him. (every Sunday a local paper reviews the minor league teams). If he threw 94-96 he would have been brought up long before the end of August.
He went 2-2 with the Phils with a 4.91 era in 6 starts. There is no talk of him making the rotation next year.
My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.
The Phillies brought up a pitcher, Tyler Cloyd, late in the year. He had to get to 15-1 with a 2.30 era in the minors in order to be called up. In a year when the Phils pitching was injured and not very good. The reason...he tops out at about 88mph. IMO the Phils didn't trust a guy throwing 85-90 could succeed at the major league level. Never any glowing remarks from Phils brass about him. (every Sunday a local paper reviews the minor league teams). If he threw 94-96 he would have been brought up long before the end of August.
He went 2-2 with the Phils with a 4.91 era in 6 starts. There is no talk of him making the rotation next year.
My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.
Every once in awhile, something is written that seems musical. Seems like it should be a "Title" rather than simply part of a sentence. "Stats" came up with one in his post.
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
…My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.
And what does that have to do with young pitchers and what they need to do to experience success at the game?
It really amazes me that no matter how much I agree with what everyone says, because I hold the belief that the path BishopLeftiesDad took with his young son was a good one, I’m some kind of nut.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!
Or, as John Steinbeck might have said, "all the other stuff we don't understand".
quote:Originally posted by Bum:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
"The broader mosaic of relativity"
That is a good one!
Or, as John Steinbeck might have said, "all the other stuff we don't understand".
Another good post Bum!
I get the feeling, TPM, that no matter what we say there has to be a response. Contrarianism is so annoying.
But just to egg it on: VELOCITY!
But just to egg it on: VELOCITY!
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I get the feeling, TPM, that no matter what we say there has to be a response. Contrarianism is so annoying. …
Its truly amazing that someone can be described as being contrary to everything when he agrees with everything, but has the temerity to have his/her own thoughts as well. How does it feel to be a sheep, bleating the same kind of thing over and over with no thoughts of your own?
isit just me or is it heating up in here?
