IMO, the most important is velocity, with some among of decent accuracy in the FB. Son, a freshman, has been throwing FB only for a few years and in the last summer camp, the HS coach taught him a simple CU grip and son has been able to pick it up real fast. The HS coach told the campers that he was only interested in FB and CU, no other junks, and he used son to demo to others how it's being done, inside FB and outside FB. I was so glad to find out that the HS coach had similar philosophy, he was a former D1 player. The only other stuff I probably need to talk to him is pitch count and see where his philosophy is on pitch count.
How about we just leave it as the answer is BOTH?!?!
Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.
Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?
Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.
Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?
Accuracy without velocity = No Bueno
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
Velocity + accuracy… hmmm.
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
Velocity + accuracy… hmmm.
bballman,
Great comments, agree with your points. Have to admit it's always fun to see a great "pitcher" who knows how to spot his pitches and set up hitters.....all the better if he can do it while throwing 88-90+.
Great comments, agree with your points. Have to admit it's always fun to see a great "pitcher" who knows how to spot his pitches and set up hitters.....all the better if he can do it while throwing 88-90+.
quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
PG is right on.
There was a pitcher in the cardinals organization who was a non drafted free agent in 2006. His name is Brandon Dickson. If you look at his player page you will see that he had many awards and organizational ones as well for his stats.
He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.
Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.
As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.
BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.
Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?
Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.
JMO.
He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.
Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.
As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.
BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.
Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?
Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. My post was in reference to the OP “Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers”. There are certainly many out there have or had great velocity and were given an opportunity to prove their ability to control the game and command the strike zone, however there are many more out there that have, let’s call it, “above average velocity” for their age that hit everything except the strike zone.
It's a matter of choice and philosophy in my son's case. When he came up from LL small field to the big field, he wasn't dominant pitcher with his FB anymore. He could drop his arms to create more movements and go with CB and sliders to gain back the advantage, or continue to work on his FB, inside and outside FB pitch. We pick the later one, that is to continue to go with FB with placement and rely on the fielders to help out. In the long run, he will grow taller and stronger and will gain back his FB advantage over the hitters. So, IMO, it is what type of pitch one wants to focus on and work on and that's what he will be good at.
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.
Wow, makes you think. Makes sense though. When my son struggles with control, my advice is "just stride and throw, don't try to throw strikes, just throw it at the glove". I'm reconsidering my advice. Sometimes pitchers think too much and sometimes I think too much. 
Funny thing is he started the clinic by asking the following question. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'4 Americans that throw 85? His answer was as follows. In the Dominican they just tell you to pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can at the target while in American all they worry about is mechanics, hitting spots, and making things look pretty.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.
I find that very fascinating because he is the pitching guru for the cardinals.
Now I understand why those guys are told to throw as hard as they can and not worry about location. That can be pretty hard for a young pitcher trying to get noticed by his stats, but in reality, the guys (rhp) that have the velo get the call.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes.
I always gave son one baseball to pitch to me. If he missed, he had to run after it. Now, he can knock a fly off a ... well, almost.
If you want to throw harder you have to practice throwing harder.
@ Sultan, LOL, My son is 8 and I do the same thing.
@ Skylark, agree 100%
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
@ Skylark, agree 100%
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
ttpm---please be advised that mlkb pitcher would not be amlb pitcher if not consistently qaccurate
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:…I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
That could be true, but then again it may well not be. It would make a much better case if there were more proof than the anecdotal evidence from individuals, perhaps in the form of how players were trained relative to their performance.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
I am not sure I get your point, please explain.
I have seen young pitchers who have stellar ERA's but their velo for FB is just hitting 90, 91 get called up and get creamed, then you will see a 23 year old hitting 100 not as accurate get hitters out.
The higher you go up in velocity, the less accurate you have to be and you do not have to be 100% accurate to be a ML pitcher.
It's just an observation. I am in total agreement that if you teach the thought process to throw as hard as you can and not worry about accuracy for young pitchers they will figure it out later on.
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
