tpm uu must be kidding
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm uu must be kidding
Kidding for what TR? You want to explain what it is you are trying to discredit me for.
I read somewhere once if you asked a ML pitcher how many balls landed where he intended them to actually go, he will tell you about 2%. I am talking average player, not the guys getting paid the big bucks to be more accurate.
You might want to ask a ML pitcher you might know if they would agree with that or not.
TR, is this the same thing like pitchers don't have to throw a bull pen at showcases because they might hurt themselves?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
Looking back, it seemed like eldest son and I did it the Dominican way. When he was 7 and 8, he would drag me to the park on weekends and asked me to be the batter and he pitched to me as hard as he could. He beamed me countless of times until I had enough and said one more time we will go home. Still remembered the bruises below and above my knees when I could not skip fast enough. Since then I have retired as a batter, don't like the feeling having a ball screaming toward me with only a bat to defend myself, just play catch.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries
Nov 19, 2012 3:53 PM
Pitching, Resting what's the best route to take?
So which is it?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
I guess what I'm saying is there is a "range" there where the fastball speed is immaterial, perhaps 88-94, and location is far more important. Once things ramp up, to 95-96+ location is less important. (Perhaps 93-94 is plus velocity at the lower levels.)
Since most pro/MLB pitchers, save closers, are not 95-96 on a consistent basis, the art of pitching is still a critical factor at the pro level. 3 solid pitches for starters, 2 for setup and closers. And for closers, velocity is critical.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
Velocity may not matter until one reaches the big field, as I have noted I have seen more accurate guys stay behind while the higher velo guys move forward, especially for releivers, as we know starters need to be more diverse.
Also why hitters progress and some do not, they get to a point where they can't hit the FB.
It's been a good discussion.
We have gotten away from the OP's original inquires which is what young pithcers should work on, and what goals to work towards that will get them beyond HS, college.
young pitchers swhould work on location and movement
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Awesome post!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
quote:
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite.
I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc..
Not really sure what you meant. Could you explain a bit better?
Not to speak for PG, but an example of my own was once in a league game, the coach had my son throw nothing but changeups for three innings. He just wanted him to get used to the feel and grip in a game situation. Work on location and movement. This was a 12U league. It helped his pitching a lot. It was in the teams best interest for him to throw something else. 
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc…
Are you saying that: “was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc.” when he was in a game that was lost too?
It seems to me that simply playing the game is a part of that development whether the final result was a win or a loss. As far as I know, just before the 1st pitch of a game is thrown, there are very few times when the main goal of either team is to lose the game. Even the worst of teams want to win, even though they may not expect to win. The main issue it seems to me, is how “important” the win might be.
FI, if it’s the 4th game of the WS and one team is down 3 games to 0, its obvious that winning the game is much more important to that team as it is to the other one. Likewise, if it’s the 4th game of the HS season and it isn’t a league game, a “grudge” game, or a long time rivalry, the outcome of the game isn’t as “important” as if it were.
All games have a different value, and they should. A lopsided win against a very weak team isn’t nearly as fulfilling as winning a close game against a very strong team. In fact, a close loss to a very strong team may well be much more fulfilling than that lopsided win.
In the end, each game is really nothing more than another step in the journey, and all games shouldn’t be expected to be given equal weight. Just play the game, because whether or not your team wins, the sky won’t fall.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.
At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.
91 mph righty a senior this year 36th round orioles..he really put on the mph's over the last two years..big kid projects well
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
I have seen this many, many times in youth baseball. There are numerous "stud" pitchers around in the early years that were so obviously overthrown, or WAY too many curveballs that are no longer playing because of arm issues.
When we went to Cooperstown, there was a kid from a nearby town that threw complete games in back to back to back days. His dad was a coach for the team and let it happen. In fact encouraged it. I don't even think he lasted until HS before his arm was done.
Conversely, my son only threw 10 innings all week with a 0.00 ERA. He was obviously the best pitcher on our team and we would have won much more with him on the mound, but we (myself and the head coach - I was the pitching coach) made the decision to not over throw him. We felt it was much more important that he stay healthy than for us to win at Cooperstown.
It happens all the time. Some people are ignorant of the dangers and some people know, but choose to ignore it. Many times those people tend to think that it will not happen to their kid. Somehow they are different.
I think perceptions are changing, but there are still those out there who will want to win at all costs. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win. It's the "at all costs" that's the problem.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Okay, I see what you are saying. We took our kid off a team when he was 11 because we thought the coaches pitched him too much. Our kid threw a lot back then, more than pretty much anyone else around. He did however gain the uncanny ability to throw any pitch he wanted for a strike. That came from throwing a lot at an early age under pressure I believe. So, it wasn't all bad.
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
