Skip to main content

230 replies

Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.

I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.


Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.
Last edited by J H
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.


I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!
S Skylark100+ posts
I have never heard of a doctor who diagnosed something such as a ucl rupture in a late teenager or college player to say- "yep, lil Johnny tore it seven years ago in a little league game and now his arm is shot".

Pretty much everyone and their dog knows by now that overuse "at any age" is the most harmful thing for a pitchers arm. For some it may be 40 pitches and for others it may be a 140. So many factors go into each individual case.

But merely because you are younger than someone else when you start pitching does in no way mean you will ruin your arm quicker. It would be interesting to find out when the average professional player started pitching when they were younger. I would tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers began pitching at a little league age. I would also tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers were no older than 11 or 12 when they started pitching.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
It is funny how those that put there sons out their early defend the position of too early not being a contributing factor to possible injury.

My son began at 8 with limited innings and allowed to throw a 2 and 4 seam only with a change up added after 10 and no cb in games until HS. If to do over again I think that we would keep him off the mound until late pre HS and not grade school. It was about winning but never about doing so at a price for injury. Pitching the few games a week they had was shared by all, almost everyone pitched on the team, no one person did more than others. One doesn't have to pitch early to learn what to throw in any count or situation, all that changes as the pitcher matures and eventually plays against better competition.


If you ask most mlb pitchers about it most will not allow their sons to pitch (or more innings) until 13 or 14 (and then maybe just start throwing off speed). Not until you or your son sustains injury does one fully understand the ramifications. How many ML pitchers have pitcher sons in the game? Anyone know?

Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what one does before they are in HS. Take it slow and don't worry about being the number one in your league. That is not going to get you a college scholarship.

After a players first season in proball, they are asked (or sometimes told) what they want to develop or what the organization wants you to use in games. The minor leagues is about development so why shouldn't youth bb be about that as well. In fact that is all it should be about. Young pitchers do not need 4-5 pitches in their arsenal, because you don't even need that when you get in the pros or college. I do believe this is big cause for injury, doing too much too young.
Last edited by TPM
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
…Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS….


Its pretty amazing how similar that is to what Mike Marshall’s been saying for many years, and how much more accepted its become. Its good to know that common sense still has a foothold in the game, albeit a shaky one. Wink
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?
Last edited by J H
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.

Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.

Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.

So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?

Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.

Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.

Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO

Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.

Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.

PG this is exactly what I was looking for. If you do not mind I will use (steal) this. Plus 1 if I could.
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
My son did not start pitching till he was in Middle school. And then he was really the third or fourth pitcher. Never had the velocity of the other guys. He didn't start being a regular in the rotation or relief until he was a sophomore.

When he was younger I always wished he would have pitched more. But as the years moved on, things worked out.

We still see his coach from 6th grade now and again, and he always comments, "I didn't know what I had." Frankly now looking back I am glad he did not.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?


You said you had scientific evidence. I dont care about opinion no matter who its from. Where is the study- the official scientific evidence in a peer reviewed journal? Find your article and we can debate it from there. As for your injury stemming from throwing at an early age? Since we are just throwing out opinions, I highly doubt you tore your UCL when you were 9 and it just never recovered but got worse through the years. From the papers I have read, it is almost impossible to tear your UCL when you are 9 from pitching. The required velocity just isnt there at that early of an age to cause the type of injury requring surgery. Now supposing your UCL was getting damaged through the years which more than likely wasnt until you were a few more years older than 9, it was more than likely due to "overuse" rather than just starting at an early age. You even stated that your doctor said it was from many years of overuse.

Do you honestly think you would have never ruptured your ucl if you had waited even a few more years? I highly doubt it.
Last edited by Skylark
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


Probably they were.

Being a LL pitcher doesn't guarantee you still will be pitching in HS or college.

I live in a state where the sun shines almost 365 days a year. That means a lot more games perhaps where you come from. As you are aware many pitchers from here get drafted and drafted high. Most of the pitchers in my sons grad class are not pitching anymore or have had surgery in some form of another that have set them back. And it's not always the arm.

The bottom line from what I see is that most pitchers break down at some point in their career. Hopefully it should be later than sooner. When the pitcher establishes himself as a prospect or reaches the higher levels. My opinion is that parents and players should do everything they can to make sure that injury doesn't occur at crucial times, that would be during the recruiting phase or in college, or in the early stages of milb before the player reaches the big field, this eliminates chance of making it by a huge margin unless the team has put a significant amount in your bank accout. Unfortunetly once you lose your spot it's tough to find your way back (ask Brian Wilson), no matter how good you are. For those that get to the pro level (and you have spoken about how your son desires to play there some day) it's a long climb up the ladder before you get to where you want to go for at least 90% of those that show the ability to get there, and injury doesn't make it any easier.

I am not here to argue but just to give advice on what I beleive should be a safe journey for young pitchers. Lots of good medical stuff going on but the bottom line is often injury ends careers.

I don't disagree that overuse is most likely a very big cause for injury. There is a huge risk involved in being a pitcher, the whole idea is to minimize that risk level to level.

JMO
Last edited by TPM
MidAtlanticDadMidAtlanticDad10,000+ posts
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."


They are all good articles and I also am aware of overuse injuries. The articles main evidence points to overuse which we all know as being the main factor in injury. There really is no direct link between when a pitcher starts throwing to injury. The only direct link we know of through the various studies such as ASMI's is pitchers who pitch year round who also pitch while fatigued or injured. This isnt an age related problem as to "when" pitchers start throwing but in actuality an "overuse" issue. Other factors such as improper or lack of conditioning, lack of proper rest, poor mechanics, poor diet and exercise also contribute to injury issues. Young pitchers who get proper rest, have good mechanics, not overused, etc, are in my opinion, much healthier when they do get older into high school and beyond. I hear it over and over again with parents of injured players or from older injured players themselves wishing they would have waited a few more years before they started pitching as if their "age" was somehow the main factor. I dont buy into it and I think it is an excuse for the true issues. How many of these injured pitchers pitched at some point through obvious pain? How many of them played more than 8 months out of the year? How many of them pitched in games while fatigued? How many of these injured pitchers were throwing over 80mph leading up to the injuries?

According to the studies, all of those things were the "main" factors leading up to surgery. Maybe they need to stress the real reasons such as I wish I hadnt allowed myself to pitch in that tournament with such severe pain or- I should have told coach to remove me in those games when I was so fatigued and tired. Or- I really shouldnt of played in all those expensive travel leagues year round just to hopefully get noticed.etc, etc, etc.

Back when my son was 11 I saw the writing plain as day and promptly put him on a different team that wasnt going to abuse his arm just for a win. Parents and players at "any age" regardless of how many seasons they have under their belt, need to be aware of the causes, symptoms, etc, that lead to injury. Those articles you posted are good articles. I HAVE read much of ASMI's work and believe most of their research. The trends they are finding are breaking down all of the previous myths we have heard in the past from myriads of parents and coaches. It all comes down to pretty much one word- "overuse". That can happen at any age. Injury has everything to do with overuse and not he age at when one starts throwing.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.


Just sayin that just because a kid starts pitching at 9 doesnt mean it decreases his chances later on as you seem to have implied earlier.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.

Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.

All are contributing factors to injury.
PreviousNext

Add Reply

Post
High Level Throwing

Driveline Baseball

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×