Sometimes common sense prevails over scientific knowledge.
Not all children at 8,9,10 are biologically created equal. Lots of growth plate injuries out there and reported here the past few years.
So yes age absolutely can be a contributing factor, maybe not the only one but can contribute.
Those past LL where do they attend? Are they future pro prospects?. How many past World championship LL play the game at the pro level?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.
Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.
All are contributing factors to injury.
I agree there are lots of contributing factors and that age does come into play in cases of overuse. My son started pitching at 9. Every year he was always one of the hardest throwing pitchers for his age. Each year as he increases in velocity we watch it all the more closely because injury is most likely to occur the harder they throw. Not very many kids need surgery who throw below 75mph. My son has always had a 4 month break from pitching every year, some years more than that. I am confident to this point that we have done a good job of protecting his arm and giving him plenty of rest opportunities. Some seem to strongly argue that just because one starts pitching earlier they are at higher risk for injury when they get to high school and beyond. Take my son for example- Why should this theory hold true? Its as if people think that at this point his arm is already injured or weakened dramatically. After all, that is the only way the theory would hold true. But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
Skylark,
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
littleleaguers should worry about location ie control and not velocity
quote:My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
Two things here. First, 62 at age 12 is pretty darn good. Second, you knew his velocity at age 12?
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:…But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
Here are a couple flaws in your argument.
1) Every kid is different.
2) There is no generally accepted definition of what “overused” is.
The main problem is the lack of empirical evidence. You have your story, I have mine, and millions of others have theirs, but there’s darn little anyone could scientifically sift through to try to come up with answers. The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.
I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.
I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
Great discussion here, I could learn from you all of your experiences. Looking back, all those wins and accolades were immaterial in LL, and parents should pay extra attentions to arm care as the little kids would not know the consequences at such a young age. The kids usually try to please the adults and as a result would play hurt when told to, they are too young to speak up. Still remember when son came to me about pain in the elbow when he was young. He then showed me if he throw when this other arm slot, it would not hurt, etc.. I let him pitch another game or two but the problem was still there. So I read as much as I could and sprung into action. No more pitching, had x-ray, PT, and MRI at the end just to make sure everything was ok. Then rest for another 6 months. Each time when son was asked to join a travel team, I hesitated. I was told many times that son should join the best competitive tournaments as much as possible but I still hesitated. Looking back, I am glad that I did hesitated and son did not join any of the travel teams. My take of the debate is that the younger the kid start pitching, the more closely the parents need to pay attention to overuse. Take every pain and ache that the kid is complaining seriously. Don't tell them to rub should sand/mud/dust on the arms and everything will be ok - it doesn't work scientifically.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:quote:My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.
Two things here. First, 62 at age 12 is pretty darn good. Second, you knew his velocity at age 12?
Coach of his first travel team had a radar gun on all the kids. I know, in retrospect it seems dumb.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
LMAO, Swampboy.
really
/
/
We have to keep in mind that if there is 12 year old baseball, there will be 12 year olds pitching.
What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)
The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.
The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.
Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)
The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.
The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.
Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
Son threw hard at a young age. He threw harder in middle school and harder in HS and harder in college and much harder now.
I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.
My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.
Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.
Skylark,
You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.
Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle.
I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.
My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.
Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.
Skylark,
You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.
Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle.
quote:I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.
Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.
I had a story on that. There was a kid, a good friend of my son, that is fairly big and his family(including grandparents) is a big into baseball. At the end of a LL season, I kind of saying to them that he would dominate next year when he grow even bigger. The grandpa said he would be training off season to get better. Next year, the kid came back and was throwing sub-marine. I was horrified but I gently asked where he had learned that. His parents said he was taking lessons from the pro and the pro recommended sub-marine so he could be more effective. It's probably a case of trying to win at all cost, but the sad part was that as the season went on, he became less and less effective. He barely pitched in the all star games. That is probably why some said being a stud at a young age would not translate to being one in HS/college. If done properly, it could translate to one, again depending on the growth rate, genes and working hard.
Swampboy,
You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.
You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.
You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.
As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.
For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.
I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.
I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.
As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.
For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.
I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.
I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
quote:Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,
If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.
I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.
Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
My personal opinion is that youth age pitchers who train right, are not overused, and throw at a healthy level are more prepared, more conditioned and more injury resistant when they do get older. If anyone knows me, they know I am about te most **** person around when it comes to proper conditioning and protecting and educating pitchers. They would also know that I advocate a lot of throwing and less of actual pitching. My firm belief is that pitchers are most susceptible to incurring injury when pitching in games especially with short rest periods in between outings. I would love to see more coaches adopt shorter pit c h counts for pitchers and substitute in its place more short practice bullpens and off days for general throwing and conditioning drills.
I long for the day when they will have some type of portable MRI machine or something that could cheaply and quickly look at the integrity of muscles, ligaments, bones and tendons right there in the dugout/ clubhouse. You could pretty much eliminate over 90% of pitching injuries at the college and pro level.
Each kid is different, but coaches and often times- parents do push their kids to pitch when the injury factors are greatly multiplied. You see this especially if lil Johnny is talented and plays in multiple leagues, plays year round and also attends lots of showcases and camps. Kids need to be taught from an early age that they themselves are ultimately in control and that they need to have a certain level of knowledge and fear instilled in them to know when the risk factors begin to dramatically multiply and that they need to shut the arm down. There are days now when my son will flat out tell the coach he isnt throwing or even take himself out of games. They completely respect him for that.
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?
Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?
You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?
You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?
I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.
Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.
There have been myriads of pitchers who threw hard at 12 and were also still pitching at 22 who only needed a knife to cut their steak. You certainly have to show proof that that youth pitchers are actually damaging their arms just because they throw at an early age.
