Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:… I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught….

There’s a component to the answer that is very very seldom discussed. Just how much would velocity increase if all the madness centered purely on it was forsaken, and nature was allowed to take its course.

I’ll agree that velocity can be “manufactured” at early ages, but what does that really do other than put those with extremely good velocity at much more risk of injury because they’re in much more demand?

And in the end, how does anyone really know that a player who eventually throws say 94 as a 20YO wouldn’t have gotten there no matter what he did to maximize his velocity from 8 to 19?

The part of it that has always kinda made me shake my head in wonder is, when great pitchers are talked about, it isn’t that they suddenly learned how to throw hard, in fact its quite the opposite. Its when they learn that other things like control and movement are mixed in, that they’re spoken of as PITCHERS rather than THROWERS. Of course there’s a huge individual component to it.

I tend to think that velocity is something that will come naturaly. I believe there are things that can be done to help that along, but being able to throw 90+ is either in the genes or not.

I think focusing on accuracy is the right answer. However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. If you don't have accuracy, you won't last very long on the mound. If you are up there walking guys and hitting guys, no matter how hard you throw, you won't be given a chance.

Mechanics are very important. I think the correct mechanics will serve to help minimize the chances of injury, improve accuracy AND improve velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
…However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. …

Far too many folks wrongly ASSUME that if someone like you or I doesn’t kiss the velocity ring, we think its not very important, but usually that’s far from the truth. As you noted, velocity is important, but there are other things that go with it. Personally, I’d like a guy who throws a 100+mph FB, an 80mph CU, a hook that breaks 3’, a sinker that drops a foot and breaks to the pitching hand side another foot, and are all thrown at 80%+ strike percentage.

Sadly though, that only describes what some parents BELIEVE is true about their son. In truth, it describes no one, but there are a lot of different ways to get to a high level of success, and for every pitcher its slightly different.

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the input.

Velocity and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. They are complementing factors. The same training that focuses on core strength, balance, and proper mechanic maximizes both velocity and accuracy.

BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.

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Originally posted by Bum:
… BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.

What evidence is there proving that, other than what people think is true. One only needs to look at a pitcher who throw ‘pus’ and is expected to get pounded around, but doesn’t, to see that low velocity isn’t a guarantee of anything.

The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.

I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.

Here's the other thing. I believe you are correct about getting to the MLB level when you are throwing in the 90's. However, as a youth pitcher, if you are out there playing tournaments and you can't throw a strike, you won't be out there long. If you focus on mechanics and accuracy as a youth, those attributes will serve you well as you move up the ladder.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying velocity isn't important. To get into the MLB and into many college programs, it is imperative. However, we are talking about advice for youth pitchers. Velocity will come with age and strength - along with decent mechanics. I still say focus on accuracy with the caveat that velocity is important as well.

Velocity determines if you're a MLB prospect.

When or how that velocity happens doesn't make much difference.

Accuracy, movement, and everything else separates those who have the necessary velocity. A few might sneak by without the necessary velocity.

There really is no reason to think otherwise. Among all those so called "Radar Gun Lovers" is the scouting community. In fact, it's the scouting community that purchases most of the Radar Guns.

Every report turned in will include one thing... Velocity. No reports that mention, good control, good curve ball, good change up, with no mention of velocity.

There is still a place for those who are good pitchers lacking velocity. But very few of these type pitchers will be draft picks or recruited at high level DI colleges.

Those of us that believe in the importance of velocity, didn't just decide on our own. We are just following what is going on.

Remember this, there are many examples where the velocity comes late. My own son went from mid 80s in HS to mid 90s a couple years later. Went from no DI interest to serious pro interest in one year.

There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.

This is correct. Bum, Jr. long-tossed year-round, even in winter but also regularly received mechanical training from a D1 college pitching coach (not the coach of his eventual school, who nearly ruined him). All of the training, core work, long-tossing, band work, and plyometrics led to the same goal: Increased velocity AND command.

Like I said earlier, velocity and accuracy are two sides of the same coin. I'm not sure why people automatically assume the kid that throws hard can never find the strike zone. Actually, especially in college and beyond, the harder throwers are more likely to also have command.

Think about it this way. If you implant the idea into a youth pitcher to not focus on velocity, just work the corners, work on the offspeed pitches.. for what? Only to be told later you're not good enough to go to the next level (due to lack of velocity)? What's the point.

The primary focus HAS to be on velocity. Get that velocity first, and then learn to harness it and refine it.

I was looking at Bum Jr.'s travel team alumni roster this morning. It is chalk full of 86-87 guys that never took it to the next level. It also contained names of guys that were 88-90 in h.s. that are now in pro ball. Velocity was the difference.

BTW I am talking about h.s.-level pitchers, not 12 and 13 year old kids. I know two local guys that threw 90 at age 15 who eventually blew out their shoulders. So any parents of younger kids, CAUTION.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.

Putting thoughts of playing MLB aside, better velocity will get you into a better college program. A better college program may lead to better instruction, and possibly a chance to advance in the game.

I agree with both PG and BUM. We've had some heated discussions here about this and what advice to give young pitchers. Velocity, and more reliance on the FB, whether accurate or not.

Too many young pitchers using off speed and breaking stuff, then they get to HS and they see the guys throwing heat (and not as accurate) getting opportunities while they don't. And as PG mentioned, sometimes it comes later for some than others, never stop working on your FB, your mechanics, conditioning.

Most of those guys throwing heat in MLB didn't all have it in HS or college.

As TPM and others have suggested, this is a perrenially recurring topic.

TPM, PGStaff, and Bum have a tremendous amount of experience between them and their analysis and opinions of this subject lead to very similar conclusions....this is potent agreement and it rings true.

For most, some of the important levels of baseball to consider after youth rec ball are:

1. JV HS ball (if you were any good in rec ball, you should get a reasonable chance to play JV HS ball...that's where the honeymoon seems to end).
2. Varsity HS ball (played at many different levels)
3. College baseball (played at many different levels)
4. Pro ball (played at many different levels)

I fully agree with the group here that says: An appropriate level of velocity is, with only a few exceptions, the prerequisite for making a transition to the next level, wherever you happen to be on the spectrum. Experienced scouts and coaches at every level know what velocity ranges work for their programs...it is the young players and/or their parents who often have the hardest time matching up their current ability to the various levels of opportunity in baseball.

The few exceptions to the "velocity uber alles" idea might include a demonstrated outstanding ability to get good hitters out w/ a specialty pitch or unusual delivery.

PGStaff said it well....whether you like it or not, every type of pitcher scouting report includes a number for FB velocity. Whether you think it's fair or not, it is very important to have a clear idea about what factors the next-level coaches and scouts take into account when making their judgements about you.

I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder

My son has set his own personal goals each season on what he wants to achieve. The biggest goal he has for each season is gaining a certain amount of velocity. His ultimate goal for hs is to throw and touch 90 his senior season. Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder.

How refreshing to hear that and not get how better it is to be successful throwing off speed.

I think sometimes when we try to instill that winning is more important over development that often happens. For a young player, it's ok not to be accurate, it's ok not to be the best because of wins. Those players often are the ones who find it very frustrating that being accurate wasn't always in their best interests.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
…Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.

If its so easy to throw a ball with a great deal of accuracy and movement, why is it that more pitchers can’t/won’t/don’t do it? I posit its because throwing with accuracy and/or movement is a skill rather than the blind luck of genetics.

stats,

I think we're going to see a profound backlash against invoking genetics as a too-easy explanation for physical performance (or lack thereof)...within reasonable boundaries, of course.

We seem to have quite a number of internet experts invoking the immutability of fast-twitch/slow-twitch muscle ratios these days without much obvious evidence that they really know what they're talking about. Meanwhile, successful athletes in every sport appear to work smart, work hard, and work continuously toward their goals....mostly outside of the public eye. Out of sight/out of mind, and with no special concern for the potential limitations of their fast-twitch muscle ratio.

One of my son's great coaches has always tried to instill this simple philosophy, "Do the right thing, even when nobody is watching".

It took awhile to figure out the full meaning of that simple idea....my first impression of it was too limited, I admit.

Stats,

No one is saying throwing accurately with movement is "easy". Yes, it is definitely a skill. A very important skill, that becomes much more important at higher velocities.