Don't compare football to baseball. Different animal.

 

Big college bb programs often in the spotlight that offer early very rarely take back on the offer but always keep in mind that nothing is really solid until he signs his NLI.

 

With the info you provided in a pm, your son being a junior, I think its all good.

The rules need to be changed. Since girls physically and mentally mature sooner committing as a high school freshman or sophomore is the norm. How many high school freshmen and sophomores know what they want out of college from an education standpoint? Colleges should not be allowed to go anywhere near athletes until they are juniors in high school. Then if they want the commitment junior year NLI's should be able to be signed junior year.

 

If a coach leaves a program or the program is put on probation the player should be able to opt out of an NLI (if not in college yet) or transfer (if in college) without penalty/sitting out a year. I'm sick of watching coaches like Calipari getting his program placed on probation and moving on to a better situation while leaving behind screwed student-athletes.

Jp24,

 

From my perspective, it is 4 major things that are causing this to happen in football and not baseball.  First is culture and business as usual.  This has been going on in football for a long time, and it has become such a mess that they can't stop it.  Second, is prestige and playing time.  Because there are so many moving parts with these commits/decommits it has a cascading effect on the players.  A 5-star commit to XYZ decommits then commits to another school where a 4-star recruit was already committed.  So, what does the 4-star recruit do?  Yes, he decommits and commits to another program.  Musical chairs.  Third, it is all about money & tv time.  Some programs have their own network and much more national TV exposure.  Some have coaching changes that will have alumni pouring money into the program (Ie...Michigan and Harbaugh) that will indirectly benefit the players.  The players are always going to go where the next biggest best deal is in their mind, but most lack the maturity (high school student) to determine exactly what that means.  In some regards, I think college baseball has a similiar problem with the number of transfers that happen after a student is enrolled.  I'm not sure if college football has as many transfers, but I'd sure like to know that.

 

Last, while some of this happens in baseball it isn't nearly as bad, because the supply of players (physical requirements) is so much more.   There are only so many 6'5" 320lb lineman to go around in a specific graduating class.  The physical demands of a specific position are pretty much cut in stone with football.  Baseball doesn't have those cookie-cutter positional requirements so the supply is so much greater.  

 

As always, JMO.

I wonder if this would be an issue if football went to 11.7 scholarships in a year. 

 

Additional dynamic in football:

 

The paired practices of (1) athletes decommitting and (2) coaches continuing to recruit "committed" players have become so prevalent in DI football that coaching staffs are routinely handing out many more offers than their 85-player limit could accommodate if players consistently honored their initial commitments. Knowing this, players become even more inclined to "reserve" their scholarship with College A; using it as a safety valve while they continue to look elsewhere (a predilection that the coaches from colleges B, C, D, ad infinitum are happy to entertain).

 

The huge stakes involved have created a perverse environment; one that's exploited by recruiters and the recruited, alike. The fact that we continue to use the word "commit" in association with the college football recruiting process is, itself, part of the perversion.

I have a hard time believing that other colleges are not going to recruit a kid because he committed as a freshman to somewhere else. It just seems like a reach to me. 

I didn't bring it up (Prepster did) but this is right on. College HC's DO recruit players who are already verbally committed somewhere else -- in football. I just read about a major D1 coach visiting the HS of a player who's committed to a rival.

 

I understand that baseball and football are different, but as has been said, using the word commit in football is a perversion. With all the stress and decision-making that's a natural part of the process for boys and their families as they try to make the right decision about where to commit in baseball, it's not helpful.

<rant>

 

I think I'm in the minority on this one, but the word "decommit" really rubs me the wrong way. We don't use words like depromise, depledge, or demarry. I don't blame the kids who withdraw their "commitment" to a school, because they didn't choose that language in the first place, the "industry" did. ("Letter of Intent" actually sounds like a less binding pledge.) But I think we are doing our kids a disservice to tell them that they have to use the word "commitment", for something that isn't.

 

The proposed DIII "nonbinding athletics celebratory signing form" sounds really silly, but at least it's accurate. In most cases, kids today are not making a commitment (before signing an NLI), they're really entering into a nonbinding agreement.

 

</rant>

MidAtlanticDad - I can see your point and its a different angle than I had previously thought about it.  I like it when someone gets me to view something from a different perspective.

 

Still...when our sons told a coach they were coming to his school, to us, that was most definitely a "commitment" and I expected both parties to keep it.  Thankfully, they all did.

If we used accurate terminology, players wouldn't say, "I just committed to Big State U."

 

They would say, "I just sold a call option to Big State U. . . for nothing! Sure hope they exercise their option next November, or else I'll be up a creek."

Although football and baseball are different sports with many different priorities, it seems like baseball may be headed down the same path as football. Just a decade ago, how much college baseball was on tv? Except for the College World Series, I don't remember ESPN playing a whole lot of it. With the explosion of regional sports stations and college conference stations, there's now a lot of airtime to fill and a lot of money at stake. I can turn on my tv almost any day and find a college game. It may be a replay of a weekend game, but it's still there. With the increasing profile of college baseball, just based solely on air time, I wonder how long it will be until the same game of musical chairs is happening in baseball? I think, to some extent, it is already starting. There are several threads on this board discussing Frosh and Soph commits with replies about how it's non-binding and nothing is set in stone until the NLI is signed. It seems like the mentality that is pervasive in football has already started to creep into baseball.

I hope not. When 2015 son committed last Summer and he contacted the other schools recruiting him, the spigot turned off immediately. He has not heard from the other schools again.

 

Now, in the last 2-3 weeks, the JUCO's have begun contacting him. And that is a whole other story.

Having been through the commitment/decommitment situation, I would say it is definitely viewed as a commitment by the coaches.  Decommitting doesn't seem to be looked upon as a good thing.  It seems that when my son is contacted by a new coach, they always ask why he decommitted. 

 

My advice is to make pretty doggone sure of your commitment before doing so.  It will be a lot less hassle.

Actually, I feel the same way. For context, this must have been around 2010 for your son?

For #1 it would been 2003, for #2 - yes, Spring of 2010.

 

In our house, the 'commitment' woulda held the same weight today as then...and I'm not expecting that to change.  Same as you I suppose. 

 

Still, I liked your earlier post.

As someone who's son decommitted (funny when I type in this word spellcheck wants  to change it!). It was something we didn't go looking for. But going into his senior baseball season he was set as a recruited walk on (No NLI), He lit up the radar gun at a HS game in front of a couple MLB scouts who were looking at someone on the other team, By the end of that night, he had lots of calls. One particular college found out he had no NLI and made him a significant offer, his original college heard this and made an offer as well. Within 2-3 days it was like blood around a school of sharks. LOTS AND LOTS of people calling, He decided to "decommit". Which then all the other colleges interested came around. In the end 10 days later with another offer from his original choice- he RE committed to the original college.

 

It was pure craziness for both he and our family but in the end he is at exact same college with an NLI.

 

We are people of doing what you committed to as well, but in this case thousands of dollars are not being paid by me or him because of that 2 weeks

I remember your story, but IMO committing with no NLI does leave the door open for the player AS well as the coach.

Just out of curiosity, do you think that your son would be in the same position he is in now if he did not have a $$ commitment? 

 

Anyway, the reason son had a very hard time committing, was because we told him, "once you commit, than that's it".  So it took him quite a while to make his decision. because he knew also that this decision would have to be the one and only for 3 years at least (you could transfer than D1 to D1). 

 

The day after he made it, he called every program that had asked him to come visit or made a previous offer. Word travels fast, in a day or two everyone knew.  

 

Those Jucos caused a whole lot of issues, one coach told others son committed to his program (back then there was the draft and follow) which was not the truth, so be careful when they clal to speak to your player and know who you are dealing with.

 

My problem with the very young committing too early is that it lets them have an out if they desire, and for us, well that just doesnt fit into our value system.  Commitment is a very serious thing (for us anyway),  it's not just about baseball or sports.

 

I made a commitment with a good friend from work to go to a co workers home for a luncheon she was having. A few days before my friend told me she didn't want to go and to find some excuse no get out of it (as she had).  I couldn't do that, she didn't understand why, I said it was about commitment, and not sure if she got my point  or not but that kind of sums up how I feel. 

Wait - so you are saying the original school who he committed to early was holding out on him, not giving him the best offer and when they realized he was going elsewhere they stepped up to the plate? this shocks me...LOL I hope the sarcasm comes out loud and clear.

As far as do I think he would have been in same position he is in for getting PT. Yeah I think so because he believes in his abilities and worked really hard last winter when he had no NLI. I think in the end they would have seen that whether it was in spring of HS because they were forced to or in fall because he was on their campus.

 

I know of 2 other boys getting significant time on this team that came without an NLI but now have one. Parents say way to much sometimes

 

The one thing I like very much about this program and still do is history shows if they tell you, you are on the team coming to college (walk on or NLI)- then you are. They have had 32-34 players on roster every year for as far back as I can see.  One of things I researched was to try to find commitments to team prior to going to college and if they ended up at his college. There were a couple that did not and I don't know why, but literally 2 out of something like 50 over a 6-7 year period. There are certainly players that do not stay for whatever reason after they have been on campus and on the roster. I assume it is the same old reasons, PT, to hard from an academics POV, Etc.

 

He has other friends that were walk ons that had 50 at fall practice and had to fight for just being on roster. Some made it and some did not. The ones that knew that up front were ok with whichever way it turned out, a few did not expect this, were cut and then angry.

 

This is not what I see at his college

The verbal is just that and is only as sincere as the person giving the “Commitment”!   The fact is that there are many variables that come into play during the recruiting process.   Whether a player’s skills change, HC/RC needs change or injuries all can change the “commitment “ sincerity by the coach or player.  Recruiting now starts as early as the freshman year and that has made the “verbal” more of an issue.   Buyers beware!

My baseball son "decommitted" and we were and still are 100% okay with that move. The PC at that school tried to humiliate my son with the whole, "you broke your word", "we honored our end of the deal" and on and on. When he said at the end of the conversation "If a HC calls me and asks about you, i will not have anything good to say", i was completely fine with my son leaving and think of it as a blessing. We have all talked about the leverage that these schools have the fact that they are grown men recruiting boys with dreams...for him to go that far, i was completely un-impresssed. Later on, well after the decision was done and he had committed elsewhere, we received what i assumed were emails sent after imbibing as he re-forwarded emails we had sent to him about our excitement to play there. #LAME

The supply-demand relationship is very different in baseball versus football.  Baseball has 11.7 scholarships for 35 players - this limited supply puts the power in the school's favor so players must behave (i.e., when they commit, they need to commit).  Football has 85 scholarships - with such a supply the balance of power shifts to the player, they hold the cards and can do what they like.

When I launched this thread nearly months ago, it was to better understand what "commit" really means. Because in football it clearly does't mean anything approaching "promise."

 

And it sounds like that may increasingly be the case in baseball, too. 

 

I'm not passing ANY judgment, Shoveit4Ks, because frankly, given how so many schools over-recruit, coupled with stories we've all read here, I don't think schools consider it an ironclad promise either. So what's good for the goose ...

 

That said, I wonder if you'd be willing to share the reason your son changed his mind. Again -- not because I would judge him or you at all, but because I suspect the reason is one that we'll see more frequently in the future.

 

Either way, thanks for sharing.

Sure thing. He changed his mind for several reasons. 

 

1. He wanted to play in the south, closer to home. The school he initially committed to was a B1G school.

2. He wanted us, his parents to be able to attend games and not be relegated to the B1G network to see him throw.

3. He got better, physically and on the field and his options changed for schools that fit his criteria.

 

I will say this...in retrospect, he should have waited and not committed. Everyone told us was to take the offer. It was he only D1 offer at the time. There isn't a handbook and we followed that advice. Probably would have waited had we known about this board as i am sure folks with experience would have said...be patient, keep working and pursue ALL options instead of taking the 1st (D1) one. I believe things happen for a reason. He just happened to have some divine intervention along the way and that allowed us to get some insight that i do not believe happens for most. I'll take the lumps for his decommitting because i know he is very happy where he is slated to attend this June. 

 

I will say, there are many RCs/PCs that know how to communicate with the kids or do it better..... then there are others who have a tougher time. My son never really had "that" feeling about the PC at said school in the B1G. The HC was 1st class in the way he communicated the change of heart by my son and i commend him for that.

 

Commit means to commit. When my son first brought up decommitting we had a talk. It went like this. "Son, you know your mother will want you to stick with the sure thing, not get intimidated by the distance from home, don't worry about us and seeign you play and to chase your dreams with that school. You can be a part of the rebuilding process and probably play sooner. Me, well i agree with all that. But i also know what it is like to believe and bet on yourself take chances. I need you to be prepared to get ZERO offers and be fine with that. You may have to drop your expectations and start at the bottom and walk on somewhere. Are you prepared for that. He said yes Dad i am betting on myself."

 

So as to not imply that my son is "Rudy" from the movie...he signed when he was an 86-88 guy and touched 92 in his first varsity game in March, 3 months after committing. 3 more months, a few awards, an Elite 8 appearance and an incredible HS season later and he had changed. Friday night, he one hit Lambert and was up to 94 in the 7th inning of a CG shutout. He knew what he was doing, was honest with himself and is still chasing his dream. I love him for that.

 

 

 

I'm okay with his decision, i would hate for him to take a spot up there and be miserable when a local kid, who's dream it is to play there could easily get that opportunity and my son could play elsewhere, where he wanted etc.

 

 

 

 

 

I totally get it. 

 

Up to 94? DANG! THAT'S AWESOME -- and honestly, I think that changes things in a way even schools would acknowledge.

 

We were lucky. We found this board in time. My son didn't commit early (after freshman year, good offer, in-state top-ranked D1) so he was never in that same spot. Several people we respect urged him to commit, but he didn't love the school. 

 

AND ... many here said go slow.

 

So we did. And now, midway through his Jr. year, he verbally committed to his FAVORITE school. I don't think that's 'early.'

 

But danged if it isn't on the other side of the country

 

Oh well, as you say: Bet on yourself.

"I will say this in retrospect, he should have waited and not committed".

 

Good perspective.

 

 My sons favorite team was University of Miami. All his life he wanted to be a cane. One hour from home, favorite colors, spent lots of time playing on the field as well as watching.

Came time for the decision, he turned it down, and went to school 800+ miles away.

 

One other thought, shoveit4ks son is a perfect example that some guys develop faster and others later.  

 

The first thing that I always say to folks is you cant fight mother nature!

Actually decommitments are happening in baseball all the time. We have even seen PG All Americans decommit.

 

Some decommitments are a result of the college changing their mind.  Players then choose to be labeled decommits rather than the program no longer wants me. Others decommit for a variety of reasons.

 

Maybe the part or word that needs to be changed is "Commitment".  But there is a definite difference between signed with and verbally commited to. Colleges clearly understand that difference, often the recruit doesn't understand until it is too late.

 

Guess I have grown somewhat immune to all of this.  People (recruits and coaches) simply change their mind.  Sometimes for very good reasons and sometimes not. In the end it is extremely important that both parties made the right decision.

Sometimes there is a good reason to change your mind. The decision should be made in earnest and good faith on both sides, its ok, things do happen.  Thats why I am not high on very early committs.

 

But its never ok to let my kids know its ok to make a commitment just because you can decommitt. Maybe those all americans can do what they want because they are all americans. 

I cant tell anyone else how to raise their kids thats not ok for mine.

Shovelit, I am probably in the vast minority here, but I think it might be very prudent to not be posting comments about the response of the PC.  College baseball is a pretty small community in many ways and your son is clearly now a very big fish.  I don't think it would take much for anyone to know the PC in question.

So, let me sort of turn this around to paint the other side: our son is good friends with a RC who truly works his a$$ off. I mean he is everywhere during the off season and his approach is not much different during a college season.  He is a 100 hour per week guy and a great guy on top of everything.  Since he works at a very high academic school, he also has those issues to work within.

A few years back he found a position player who sounds a lot like your son.  The player was not heavily recruited and this RC saw him on a day when he was the only college guy there.  He loved him and saw a huge upside to a player who was very good but still somewhat raw and with a huge upside.  He worked with the HC and they made a major offer for that program, which was not fully funded at the time.

After some back and forth, the player gave his verbal that he was coming and he accepted the offer.

That RC was on cloud 9 for all his hard work being rewarded, but still at the risk of a 16 year old and his word.  That RC put in really hard work traveling to see this player and follow him when no one else gave a hoot.

Toward the end of the players HS junior season he put up numbers and created a buzz.  Other schools now expressed interest and the next thing anyone new the kid who gave his verbal was visiting a conference competitor, which got back pretty quickly through social networking.

I never heard how that RC handled that with the recruit/verbal. I believe he called the RC at the competitor school and had a frank discussion. Personally, I thought the RC had every reason to be pi$$ed in a major way considering how much time, effort and projection went into the process on his side.  This is a RC who is a really good guy.

Sometimes where we sit makes a difference.

       
       

And he picked a great school to commit to. My son would love to play there eventually. He's only a freshman, so lots of time in front of him to develop and enjoy his high school career. I am also glad we found this board so we could educate ourselves on the process and timing. I can't tell you how many times I've heard parents and players talking about getting full baseball scholarships and laying out their entire recruiting plan as just attending college camps. As they say, knowledge is power.

Infielddad,

 

I agree it is probably not prudent in posing the PC's comments and actions.  I'm also in agreement that where you sit makes a huge difference.  Fortunetly or unfortunetly, I sit in the big chair writing checks for my three sons.

 

I was trying to teach my son(s) how to make business decisions related to college baseball and their future profession(s) based on cost/benefit and risk/reward as an 18 year old.  While he had many RCs tugging on his ear we were trying to teach him to think of his 4 year college future and profession out of college.....not necessarily the future of the RC.   While my son and I appreciated all the hard work some of the RC's did it was eventually our dollars and futures at stake...not a temporary friendship or sales pitch from a college baseball recruiter.  I'm not advocating for recruits to back on their commitments (quite the contrary) but I can see situations (if handled properly) where a wrong could be righted.  

 

At the end of the day, it is your son's future.  College baseball recruiting is a tough business with a lot of risk...you and I both know that.  You play by the unofficial rules of verbal committment  as best you can to honor your word and teach your kids what that means.  But, in the end you have to do what is best for you and you can't worry what others think..  

 

As always, JMO.

infieldad - I get that college baseball is a very small world.  Accepting that, what sort of issues should Shoveit's son be concerned about regarding this former PC?  Shoveit's son is a highly regarded pitcher going to pitch at a top school in a top conference.  Assuming he continues to perform, he'll be fine.  He will presumably have a nice college career that may or may not develop into a professional baseball opportunity.  Assuming he pitches well, it seems unlikely to me that a professional MLB scout will be impacted much by the opinion of an immature scorned pitching coach or his view of Shoveit's kid. 

 

The flip side is ths is a coach (the former one) that I would want to know more about if my son was considering this school.  If this man is so unprofessional and immature, wouldn't a future prospect want to know that?  Isn't it a window into how the coach conducts his business in all aspects?  I think it is.

 

In regards to your story about the RC your son knows - the glaring difference is that while he called the coach trying to poach his recruit, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he was badmouthing the kid.  I think it's 100% fine that he called the other school and gave the guy a piece of his mind.  Shovelit suggests there were threats to say things about his son in addition to emails that were unprofessional and inappropriate.  What I would really love to know is if this coach or university had ever pulled an offer on a kid or dramatically reduced their scholarship commitment.  I'd bet my mortgage money they have.

 

Maybe I just lack perspective or experience, but I think Shoveit's kid avoided a bad situation if this is the former coach's approach to handling adversity.

Once again, to me the biggest problem revolves around the word commitment. A commitment by definition means the same thing as a promise.  Most everyone wants to keep their promises and commitments. So that word "commitment" should be changed to decision.  I have verbally made my decision!

 

That is what really takes place on both sides.  Everyone realizes that bad decisions are made a lot.  When that bad decision is also a "commitment" it becomes a dilemma of sorts. I have changed my mind becomes a bigger issue Because now it involves more than a decision change, it involves your integrity.

 

Even at that, I would guess that we have all broken commitments at times.  Especially once we realize that the commitment was a mistake.  The question becomes... Do I live with that mistake or do I try to fix things?

 

Recruiting is a two way street.  The super prospect commits to the local college because he believes that is his only option.  Later he finds out every college in the country wants him.  He can honor his local commitment or he can go to Stanford at less cost.  At the time he made his commitment, he wasn't aware of the possibilities.  Now he is!  What do you do?

 

Once most people realize they made a mistake, don't they try to fix it If possible?

 

I have decided to go wrestle a Grizzly Bear. Wait, that is a bad "decision", I'm going to change my mind.  

 

I have "committed" to go wrestle a Grizzly Bear.  Oh no, I made a "commitment"!!!

 

It's that word commitment getting in the way.  

 

If I'm coaching a college team, the last thing I want is a bunch of recruits on campus that wish they were somewhere else.  If I am one of the recruits, the last thing I want is the coach wishing I wasn't there.  So sometimes a player "decommitting" or the coaching staff pulling an offer, is actually doing everyone a favor in the long run. It's just hard to see it that way at the time.

OK

Sent from my iPad

Got to agree with PG whole-heartedly. The word "commitment" sounds too morally binding and means different things in different sports. In football, we've come to understand it to mean, "I think I'm going to the U of X. I'm leaning in that direction quite heavily, but if you have an offer, you should give me a call." In baseball it has always been considered more solid and most coaches homor those commitments. Which makes little sense to me. In football, scholarships are 100%, so I can see a coach being upset if a kid chooses Auburn over Alabama on signing day morning after commiting to 'Bama. the scholarships are the same $$ and the opportunities are about the same. However, in baseball, what kind of douche coach gets upset when he gets a "commit" from a 16yo Sophomore at a mid-lavel D1 for a 25% scholly, then has a monster junior season and gets an SEC or ACC 50% offer? heck, congradulate the kid on his hard work, offer more if you've got it, promise him playing time nd if he still wants to de-commit, wish him well.

Great post by PGStaff on "commitment."

 

There was a time long ago when a couple that wasn't ready for a formal engagement would have an "understanding" that they intended get engaged and married when they were old enough and sufficiently settled.  The "understanding" was contingent on both parties living up to its expectations regarding continued affection, progress in careers, and good behavior.

 

That's really what a "verbal" is, isn't it?

 

It is odd that players make a "commitment" before they sign a letter of intent. Seems backward, somehow. Intention should precede the commitment, shouldn't it?

 

If we extended the nuptial analogy, the right sequence would be:

Verbal = Understanding.

NLI Signing = Engagement.

Enrollment = Marriage.

 

In this analogy, commitment doesn't happen until you reach the altar.

 

So transfer = divorce

 

sorry couldn't help myself Swamp

LOL! and a greyshirt request is a "trial separation."

9and7dad,

I debated long and hard about whether to post in this thread or not.

For the PC in question, I don't know whether he is a really good guy and coach, similar to the one I mentioned, who made a bad choice in his reaction, or whether his reaction is a mirror of that PC as a coach.

Unfortunately, on a message board, we only get one side of the picture.  It seems to me that anyone in your situation or those with upcoming recruits would want to know, first hand, rather than from a message board.  Again, I am not saying Shovelit did not accurately depict the reaction. My point is the coach I know had a very similar reaction, for many reasons, but is a very good person and coach and one I would certainly entrust with the future of our son, if we had a do-over!

As to college baseball being a small world, I have no idea about what the future might hold for either that PC or Shoveit's son.  My personal preference is to post on this site just like I approach the game of baseball, from the realization that baseball almost always humbles every player/participant.  I fully appreciate how the future appears for Shovelit and his son so far as baseball is concerned.I also know that the future in baseball is a very, very long journey from this point.

Perhaps the paths will never cross again. Perhaps what was/is posted on this site will be meaningless.

It is just my perspective but while I don't believe the response of the PC was appropriate, I also question whether it is appropriate to post them here, when the coaches identity won't be hard to learn.

Right now, it is the right arm and velocity in throwing a baseball which, in baseball, by and large defines the player.

While, to others such as yourself, that might seem to paint a picture going forward, to me it also shows how  uncertain that future could be.

To finalize my point, I was not at all being critical of the decision Shovelit and his son made is withdrawing from the verbal. Those are personal choices as the last post clearly notes.  I fully support that a family and player have to make the best choices based on the information available to them and what is most meaningful.  When we get down to it, Swampboy  summarized the verbal so well when he posted that it is nothing more than the player giving a school an option on his college baseball future which the college can choose to exercise at some point possibly far into the future.  Understanding I am not much of a fan of them, I appreciate they are  part of the process and increasing every day in baseball.

At its core, my point is that if that reaction of the  PC is truly meaningless going forward, why drag his reaction into the discussion, which Shovelit already acknowledged.