Interested to know what the rest of you teach concerning the vertical position of the hands prior to launch, in the baseball swing. What I am really interested in is the "why".
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If the hands are not vertical, then they are flat. That diminshes power and reduces a hitter to a slap hitter.
Following is another part of this week's email to my son:
"As I have mentioned, the more efficient your swing, the more you'll have to adjust your timing. Think about it. If your swing is quicker (more efficient) and you start at the same time as when it was less efficient, you are going to be early. We talked about the problems of being too early and losing momentum. That is irrefutable.
So, you have to control the stride...and be able to adjust the timing of landing it on every pitch based on what you eyes are seeing.
The equalizer in not being late is the "hand torquing", by keeping the hands moving the barrel into swing path (not forward, but that position from tip toward pitcher to lower "off shoulder" position right before shoulder turn). That moving of the barrel gives the barrel momentum when the shoulders tilt and turn and the hands begin to rotate.
It's like a sailboat race. Do you want to be the boat at the starting line at a stand still when the gun goes off? Or, do you want to be the boat that went backwards, away from the line and came back so that they hit the starting line the same time the gun went off. Even though they are both at the starting line when the gun goes off, the second boat has momentum and will have greater speed across the line.
So, it allows you more time to recognize pitch, and hit the ball with uninterrupted momentum.
Do you understand the concept of momentum? (Your bat is the boat...dead hands kill your bat...so, keep the hands torquing)
Do you understand what I mean by torquing the hands to move the barrel from tilt toward pitcher to lower position ready for tilt and turn? (the point between your left index finger and right pinkie is the torque point...as the rear elbow drops and the front elbow raises, you are doing that by turning on the hinge of the torque point)"
Following is another part of this week's email to my son:
"As I have mentioned, the more efficient your swing, the more you'll have to adjust your timing. Think about it. If your swing is quicker (more efficient) and you start at the same time as when it was less efficient, you are going to be early. We talked about the problems of being too early and losing momentum. That is irrefutable.
So, you have to control the stride...and be able to adjust the timing of landing it on every pitch based on what you eyes are seeing.
The equalizer in not being late is the "hand torquing", by keeping the hands moving the barrel into swing path (not forward, but that position from tip toward pitcher to lower "off shoulder" position right before shoulder turn). That moving of the barrel gives the barrel momentum when the shoulders tilt and turn and the hands begin to rotate.
It's like a sailboat race. Do you want to be the boat at the starting line at a stand still when the gun goes off? Or, do you want to be the boat that went backwards, away from the line and came back so that they hit the starting line the same time the gun went off. Even though they are both at the starting line when the gun goes off, the second boat has momentum and will have greater speed across the line.
So, it allows you more time to recognize pitch, and hit the ball with uninterrupted momentum.
Do you understand the concept of momentum? (Your bat is the boat...dead hands kill your bat...so, keep the hands torquing)
Do you understand what I mean by torquing the hands to move the barrel from tilt toward pitcher to lower position ready for tilt and turn? (the point between your left index finger and right pinkie is the torque point...as the rear elbow drops and the front elbow raises, you are doing that by turning on the hinge of the torque point)"
noreast,
You may want to check out some video of Mel Ott before you set those comments in stone. Just a thought.
You may want to check out some video of Mel Ott before you set those comments in stone. Just a thought.
To clarify my question, I am specifically asking about the vertical position of the hands in relation to the rest of the body. For instance, some may say the hands need to be "on an invisible platform" created by the back shoulder prior to launch. Thanks for the responses!
Mell Ott! What, pre-1950?
I assume you're talking about flat hands?
Got anything since 1985 to refute flat hands = slap hitter.
I assume you're talking about flat hands?
Got anything since 1985 to refute flat hands = slap hitter.
Some of this is just a mystery and I don't understand these concepts being presented as either the "MLB Swing" or as absolutes. I've never taught hands verticle and yet have teams that have put up tremendous power numbers. We've taught barrel of the bat past the ear and connection (No bat tipping etc. and more than a few have gone to D-I schools including more than my fair share last year.) We've definately never taught THT or any other concept but that's another argument.
quote:Originally posted by noreast:
Mell Ott! What, pre-1950?
I assume you're talking about flat hands?
Got anything since 1985 to refute flat hands = slap hitter.
Yep, flat hands. How about Terry Kennedy? No slap hitter there. If you have great vision, concentration, hand-eye coordination, leverage and a good swing path, you can hit any number of ways, and yes, even with power. BTW, I have stop action photos of Pujols with flat hands too.
Perhaps the "slap hitter" reference was just an exaggeration. It certainly isn't accurate.
I was speaking in terms of younger age hitters. That is the context with which I assumed the poster was referring, as no one here is working with MLB hitters. Kids who lay the back flat (pre-swing) and don't bring it to tilt tend to have less power.
Obviously, MLB hitters are physically able to do things younger kids can't do. They are stronger, and usually, athletically gifted.
That being said, Pujols does bring his barrel into tilt forward before launch.
Obviously, MLB hitters are physically able to do things younger kids can't do. They are stronger, and usually, athletically gifted.
That being said, Pujols does bring his barrel into tilt forward before launch.
quote:Originally posted by noreast:
I was speaking in terms of younger age hitters. That is the context wiht which I assumed the poster was referring. Kids who lay the back flat (pre-swing) tend to have less power.
Obviously, MLB hitters are physically able to do things younger kids can't do. They are stronger, and ususally, athletically gifted.
That being said, Pujols does bring his barrel into tilt forward before launch.
Yes, he does, but he didn't when he first came up. At different times in his career, Cal Ripkin didn't tilt forward either. I'm sure there are many more, but as I've alluded to on here before, I think the hitting Coaches of the day have more to do with why the MLB swing has changed than the need to do so. I will agree though, that forward tilt does add power and the ability to wait longer. I really don't see a need to do that in younger hitters though. JMO
Funny thing is, my son did lay back rearward in LL, and was a terror (at 5' 1" 99 lbs) leading league in every possible stat. He continued that way until around junior HS.
Hitting coaches got him away from it. He still hit for power.
Then, they kept "teaching" him and taught him not to be a hitter. That's where I had to figure this mess out. I do like the rhythm it has given him, and that it has gotten him away from the "dead hands", which became his biggest problem at the level of better pitching when he was looking fastball and got something else.
But, I can concede that different things work for different kids.
Hitting coaches got him away from it. He still hit for power.
Then, they kept "teaching" him and taught him not to be a hitter. That's where I had to figure this mess out. I do like the rhythm it has given him, and that it has gotten him away from the "dead hands", which became his biggest problem at the level of better pitching when he was looking fastball and got something else.
But, I can concede that different things work for different kids.
ryno -
The way I like to think about it is that the loading sequence of the arms is the same for overhand throw/pitching as for mlb hitting pattern.
Kids should learn both a high level throw and hititng together becasue in the throw they will learn the basic loading sequence then carry this over to hitting.
In hitting both hands grip the handle and take turns /alternate which moves the handle more actively.
In throwing, you have the hands in near the center to turn back in the windup (inward turn)
then you break the hands with symmetric internal rotation and lifting of the arms as the hips ****.
This loads the hips and hands, then you wind the rubber band (coil the torso) by turning the stride leg open as the throwing arm comes up (synched external rotation of back arm and front leg).
In hitting, the sequence of loading is the same:
1 - inward turn, hands passive or hitched down in towatrd center belly button.
2- hips **** as back arm internal rotation and lifting leads loading. Lead arm comes in near body .
this tends to give the vertical hand position.
3- hands **** as back elbow comes up/peaks
4- rubberbandwinds as handle is torqued, hands go up and over, shoulders stay back, hands stay back with shoulders, rubber band winds as lead leg then hips open.
These synched upper and lower joint sequences are largelky the same and necessary to load right fot swinging and throwing.
More alternating/back anf forth in hitting with both hands on bat and hitting then unloads in a very different way, like torquing the handle and throwing the bathead with the monmeutm of the body.
The way I like to think about it is that the loading sequence of the arms is the same for overhand throw/pitching as for mlb hitting pattern.
Kids should learn both a high level throw and hititng together becasue in the throw they will learn the basic loading sequence then carry this over to hitting.
In hitting both hands grip the handle and take turns /alternate which moves the handle more actively.
In throwing, you have the hands in near the center to turn back in the windup (inward turn)
then you break the hands with symmetric internal rotation and lifting of the arms as the hips ****.
This loads the hips and hands, then you wind the rubber band (coil the torso) by turning the stride leg open as the throwing arm comes up (synched external rotation of back arm and front leg).
In hitting, the sequence of loading is the same:
1 - inward turn, hands passive or hitched down in towatrd center belly button.
2- hips **** as back arm internal rotation and lifting leads loading. Lead arm comes in near body .
this tends to give the vertical hand position.
3- hands **** as back elbow comes up/peaks
4- rubberbandwinds as handle is torqued, hands go up and over, shoulders stay back, hands stay back with shoulders, rubber band winds as lead leg then hips open.
These synched upper and lower joint sequences are largelky the same and necessary to load right fot swinging and throwing.
More alternating/back anf forth in hitting with both hands on bat and hitting then unloads in a very different way, like torquing the handle and throwing the bathead with the monmeutm of the body.
quote:More alternating/back anf forth in hitting with both hands on bat and hitting then unloads in a very different way, like torquing the handle and throwing the bathead with the monmeutm of the body.
Mr. guerry,
THIS is what I understand as hitting! You are talking about the second handle torque or uncocking of the wrists in this quote, correct?
Ryno, are you talking about that moment, when the shoulders begin to rotate?
If I'm reading your question correctly, you are referring to the moment when the hands are turning, and coming out of forward tilt.
As the rear elbow is dropping, the hands reach a verticle position relative to the shoulders. As the shoulders turn, and the rear elbow continues to drop, the relationship between the hands and the shoulders do remain verticle (not to ground, but with shoulder plane) until hands unhinge and deliver the barrel to the ball.
If I'm reading your question correctly, you are referring to the moment when the hands are turning, and coming out of forward tilt.
As the rear elbow is dropping, the hands reach a verticle position relative to the shoulders. As the shoulders turn, and the rear elbow continues to drop, the relationship between the hands and the shoulders do remain verticle (not to ground, but with shoulder plane) until hands unhinge and deliver the barrel to the ball.
I am referring to the vertical position of the hands in relation to the rest of the body at the end of the stride, prior to heel drop or rotation.
OK, someone please help me with this. Bat held vertical would mean vertical hands, correct? Bat lying on shoulder with hand at shoulder hieght, batt horizontal, would mean horizontal hands, correct. Which is preferred?
How do you have vertical hands and the bat perpendicular to the spine?
How do you have vertical hands and the bat perpendicular to the spine?
quote:Originally posted by deaconspoint:
OK, someone please help me with this. Bat held vertical would mean vertical hands, correct? Bat lying on shoulder with hand at shoulder hieght, batt horizontal, would mean horizontal hands, correct. Which is preferred?
How do you have vertical hands and the bat perpendicular to the spine?
