VHSL: coaches to work with athletes almost year-round

This has the potential to change the entire landscape of the high school world.

quote:

Originally posted by 643baseball:
This has the potential to change the entire landscape of the high school world.

Not really, as VA has long been one of the more restrictive on coach/player offseason contact, and as such this simply puts VA in line w/most other states. Now if only the Northern Region would "butt out"...

Jess1, I tend to agree with you...

My question would be ...How does the high school baseball coach get around the fact that he cannot be at a showcase or a travel tournament for a whole weekend? Since the article clearly states that "high school coaches will be authorized to work with their athletes any day except Sunday."

Since most showcases are usually a weekend event (during the summer and fall) this would clearly be an issue.

I know some coaches will gladly take on the additional time with their kids but let’s face it how many coaches will be willing to put in a year’s worth of time for the same three month stipend?

What I believe will happen is that coaches will be involved more now in their summer and fall programs without haveing to be covert about it.

It will be hard to guess the impact until the regions come out with their own rules.

mathews41,
You voiced the key questions, save Swampy's Q.

FWIW, some states do restrict Coachs' schedule - they simply work around it by not being in the dugout (do some crowd watching @ larger showcases and you'll find a/the HS Coach in the stands or parking lots) on the specified off day.

My $.02 is that this won't have much (if any) impact on the "showcase" teams (and no, I won't get into "showcase vs. travel here :-), nor Legion. It will have a major impact on the 2nd tier "travel/showcase" teams as the presence of a given HS Coaching Staff will lend a great deal of prestige or influence to one team in a given area...

You're right, of course - many HS Coaches have exercised some influence over offseason teams in a covert fashion for years.

Unfortunatly, the Northern Region will undoubtly find some excuse to exercise/demonstrate their power by unduly restricting their own region - for reasons that would escape the rational person...

My first reaction was that this is great news, but then I also worry about this forcing kids to specialize even more. After reading the article, the coach at the end shares this concern. For example, while the article says spring football is unlikely b/c of insurance I can certainly see some programs organizing private insurance or having all parents sign agreements regarding their son being covered only under the parents policy in order to play spring football.

I wonder if we're going to hear the NFL's favorite offseason term (other than CBA) start to be thrown around: "organized team activity".

This isn't so big a change. Just gets the proxies out of the way. The "legion" and "wood bat" summer squads will just be out in the open now

I doubt it will affect the showcase arena for the following reasons:

1. College coaches would muh rather see a showcase team with multiple players that could be a fit for their university rather maybe 1 or possibly none.

2. There are very few high school programs that boast multiple Division 1 players.

3. Certain prestigious showcase tournaments are run by showcase team coaches and I doubt they would "invite" a high school team over a prestigeous showcase program. This also includes Perfect Game. Let's remember that this is a BUSINESS for some people and they will do everything they can to continue to make the money necessary to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads, even if it means making some high school coaches who choose to go that route mad.

4. High school coaches spend a TON of time in the off season with their players already (if you are in a program with a coach who does that). This time takes away from their family. A majority of HS coaches are fathers who spend a lot of time away from their kids. I doubt they will spend their "off" time running around every weekend for a couple thousand bucks that they are probably saving in child care by staying home with their kids.

Now I could definitely see more teams practicing and playing together during the week but a year-round expereince with your HS coach is probably not going to happen in most cases and I'm sure the players, parents and coaches are all fine with a little time away from each other. That's why it's called the "off-season"

I think it will be business as usual as well. It is a good rule as now coaches can do it or not. Why penalize players and coaches who want to get better? The players and coaches that want to excel have been doing so anyway and will continue to do so. Also, good high school coaches normally try and surround their off-season team with qualified coaches if they're not there. Now you will see who steps up to continue with year round gigs.

Coaches, players, and especially pitchers, have to know when not to overdo it and realize what players do if playing for more than one team. If a player plays for a good showcase team on weekends and plays for his high school team during the week then that is good. Reason being, when the better players are not there it gives the other kids a chance to step up or step back and the spring coach can get a better evaluation rather than two days of tryouts. Also, it gives the parent a first hand look and maybe a reality check on their son, whether good or bad. Players will play their way out or play their way in at the high school level.

The showcase player has to get out there and be seen on college campuses. Please don't fool yourself into thinking that a flock of college coaches are going to come to your summer/high school/legion/travel/select game. The game has changed. You have to promote yourself and take charge of your future if you want to try and have one in baseball.

If kids want to play to more than one sport then they should. They have to figure out what they want to try and do. Some kids are blessed to play more than one sport at the high school. That does not mean they will play one at the college level unless they are a Bo Jackson (old school) type athlete and then you can write your own ticket. Thus, for the kids that want to specialize and concentrate (may need to to play at next level) on one sport then kudos to them! Maybe they do have their goals in order.

Jess1, curious as to what is a 2nd tier showcase/travel team mean?

Luv baseball, coach2, and matthews41.....good posts.

quote:

Jess1, curious as to what is a 2nd tier showcase/travel team mean?

As opposed to top tier (e.g, Canes/Stars/Renegades/FITB)

Not trying to "big league" anyone but who are the Renegades? I've never seen them nor heard of them.

At least on the surface, I find it hard to see how this (for the less reputable) couldn't evolve into some sanctioned and ongoing racket. Now before anyone indignantly tells me about how great VHSL coaches can be, I know, and I get it. Still, I thought that the idea was that the influence of certain programs would be held in check by establishing coaching limitations over the calendar year.

What is to keep a coach, then, from REQUIRING that prospective players play on his travel team? OR, from families currying favor with a coach (who may be younger in his career and maybe not as well to do). Expenses are what they are, but it seems to me that there could be an opportunity to either unfairly curry favor with (or be "punished" by) a coach out of the high school season for reasons that have nothing to do with putting the best high school team on the field during the high school baseball season.

Just my first reaction, but I would be curious to see if there are any other limitations put in place.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Not trying to "big league" anyone but who are the Renegades? I've never seen them nor heard of them.

They've been a good NoVa Travel Team for several years now.

I dont agree at all that restrictive rules should exist solely to prevent the extremely small minority of despicable coaches out there from organizing a "racket". Would an extremely small handful of coaches around the state attempt something like youre describing? Probably. Those guys will be exposed in time. IMO, the question that needs to be asked is: Would the VAST majority of HS basebaball players around the state benefit from this in some way? I think they would.

Its semantics though in Fairfax County because FCPS is going to end up agreeing with Ole Ball Coach 100% no matter what the rest of the state does.

Don't know what OBC has to do w/FCPS, but I do know a handful of HS coaches (extended family members) in States that are pretty "hands off" offseason teams, and they generally don't see much in the way of "rackets", rather, they support their best players' attempts to move to the highest level, and try to work w/the balance of their participants.
I'm sure there's a few who try to "coerce" participation, but such a move, IMO, is so counterproductive that it becomes, in effect, self policing.
Again, that's just my $.02...

This rule will not change anything for the true baseball programs. The quality programs have coaches that have a hand on their programs all year round. In the summer and fall the teams add players from other schools or the coach takes a copilot seat (never a back seat) to someone else as the "head coach" to get around the rule and play legion, travel or showcase. My oldest son played in a Feb - May baseball program all four years and it SUCKED! In the summer he played Legion for another school, showcase for another coach and in the fall he played for another private school program with their complete coaching staff and 90% of the spring team. In my opinion.....the top programs in tidewater (not sure about other areas)are good because the coaches encourage showcase teams for the top players, travel teams for develping players and year round conditioning and skills developement for all players. My experience has been that baseball is the only sport that still restricts and some what enforces season restrictions as a way for certain coaches and schools to shut down in the off season. Most coaches are over worked and under paid and if they are willing to spend the extra time to help my kid get better and maybe make that next level then I support it 100%. Under the current rules you already have the coaches that want your kid to take lessons from them and not play for anyone else regardless of their qualifications or opportunites they can provide to getting seen....the only way to change that is to change the coach!

I tend to agree, it will not greatly effect the showcase teams or events as the 2 premier showcase organisations run the showcase circuit (Canes and Braves). as for tidewater coaches, the good ones have been working with the kids one way or the other now they can be overt and covert. the bad ones (those doing it for the stipend not the game!) will not change. my .02 cents, School is about school, if its about baseball you may want to re-think, just my thoughts, not intended to offend anybody.

NOVA has "unofficial" Varsity/JV feeder teams that compete in the NVTBL. The teams are coached by a paid coach or a dad(s). The team is composed current players, minus the studs (in most cases). The teams are mostly composed of average HS players. The studs play summer/fall showcase with some of the elite orgainzations. HS coaches, although not coaching these teams, indirectly dictate certain positions, etc...... This is good for player development.

So, in a way, they have already been working with athletes year-round. Now it can be more overt.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ole Ball Coach, but rather than having a HS coach "require" that the ballplayers play on their travel teams, I think that most kids will automatically play for those teams, by their own choosing, in order to gain favor by that coach. This will occur whether there is any real advantage gained (by way of making the team or by way of playing time) or not.

Kids (and, more likely, their parents) will be afraid that if they don't sign up, they won't be "seen" by their HS coach, and ultimately won't get playing time during the HS season. And all it will take is for their HS coach to put one player in the lineup, or substitute one player into a game, for the rumors to start that "Johnny is only playing because he's on Coach's travel team."

I also agree with Jess1 that this may cause the demise for some of the "lesser" showcase teams in the state (although I wouldn't come up with the same four showcase teams he listed as being the "premier" level teams in the state, but that's an issue for another day).

FWIW,I only named 2 showcase & 1 travel team. FITB = fill in
the blank.
Agree @ "playing time"comments from parents, though.

I was trying to figure out which team's initials were FITB

Furiously Intense Travel Ball?

quote:

Originally posted by Jess1:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Not trying to "big league" anyone but who are the Renegades? I've never seen them nor heard of them.

They've been a good NoVa Travel Team for several years now.

I wouldn't put the Renegades in the same class as the Canes, Braves, Rookies, Mid-Atlantic or Stars. They have been a real nice NVTBL team for a few years, mainly at the younger ages (younger than "Varsity" level in NVTBL). Not knocking them at all. They do a nice job of getting their players ready for high school, but a bunch that have played for them have moved on to some of the "showcase" teams mentioned here. Same can be said for the Dragons. Both have had good success up to the 14/15U age group.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Furiously Intense Travel Ball?

Good one Swamp...

I think we may be overreacting. The rules change speaks to coaches working with players, not to the conduct of team events nor to the number of permissible practices/games.

To me this means the coaches can be present for off season conditioning workouts, e.g., monitoring the weight lifting programs, etc. I seriously doubt that anyone intends to open up sports to year-round domination by the HS coach.

Although, I hate to tell you, we already have the problem of the HS coach running an off-season travel squad and pretty much making it clear that players had better play for him or else. Although there is a rule against this, policing and enforcement are non-existent. The funny thing is that the better players learn to call the coach's bluff, because the last thing that coach wants is to get to springtime without his top 5 guys on the field.

I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I was using the 'Canes & Stars as examples of "Showcase" and the Renegades and any other, as an example of "Travel". That in no way even attempts to equate the two categories...

quote:

Originally posted by Jess1:
They've been a good NoVa Travel Team for several years now.

edited...the dead horse has been sufficiently beaten above.

I apologize for sidetracking the conversation.

On topic, many of the Tidewater coaches work with their kids and this rule will not change things, IMO.

The Northern Region coaches that I know have all stuck by the previous rule. Although some after-school, voluntary off-season weightlifting and other workouts have occurred, that has been the extent of it. There has been no direct (and very limited indirect) involvement with any travel teams that have more than 2 or 3 of their players on the regular HS roster. I think this rule change will allow these coaches to really ramp up their year-round involvement with this level of involvement.

From what I'm reading, this rule has been skirted by a lot of other high school coaches in the state, and interestingly, judging by some of these posts, it seems that a lot of people have known about it. I'm not naive enough to believe that it never happens, I just wasn't aware that it happened so much and so overtly.

(BTW, Swamp - I agree, your new travel team name is hilarious.)

For the record, my sons played in Fairfax county, and one of their coaches is still a friend of mine to this day. While I have followed high school ball a lot for the last fifteen years, I no longer have a kid in the system. I am just a fan, and that's about it.

A quick story. One of our (then) high school assistant coaches had been a hitting coach to one of our players as the young man was growing up (probably from about the age of 10). As the relationship spanned over time, the coach's and the player's family were quite close and the parents of the player made it a point to (lucratively) recognize his efforts as an instructor. I don't know if it was common knowledge, but if I knew about it, it couldn't have been that big a secret.

This young man wasn't a "stud"; the truth is, he wasn't really any better or worse than the middle tier of underclassman players at the school at that point. With a little extra exposure, like most ballplayers, he would (and did) get better. As a freshman, he "made" varsity as a DH and backup shortstop. Did he belong there? Maybe, but probably not (he was overwhelmed as most are that first year "up"), but it was a year (and exposure) for him that others wouldn't have.

Anyway, I spoke with my friend (his colleague) about this situation at the time and it was clearly the most uncomfortable I had ever seen him. He is no longer in the game, but was (and is) one of the most decent men I know. I forget the words, exactly, but he said that the only "protection" a coach had when putting a squad together was the belief that he was going to put the team on the field that gave him the best chance of winning. That was it.

Now, with the rules change, the majority of coaches are going to be able to do overtly what, apparently, they were doing already (of course, some still won't). And, I will grant that there isn't a lot of money in coaching a ball-club so they should be compensated if they take the time to put together a travel program. At what point, though, does the calculus change? I have no way of knowing how it came to be, but it seems to me the old rule existed to ensure this never became an issue.

Finally, it seems to me that the coaches that do things the right way and for the right reasons may have the most to lose in the long run. A coach that monitored things at arms length and without direct off-season responsibility is more likely able to say (and have people believe) that his was a high school baseball decision (does it mean he isn’t involved, though? of course not.) One who has to be "responsible" for their players year 'round is more likely to be viewed to have competing interests, especially if their decisions can be attributed to something other than baseball merit. My .02.

quote:

Originally posted by berryberrygood:
The Northern Region coaches that I know have all stuck by the previous rule. Although some after-school, voluntary off-season weightlifting and other workouts have occurred, that has been the extent of it. There has been no direct (and very limited indirect) involvement with any travel teams that have more than 2 or 3 of their players on the regular HS roster. I think this rule change will allow these coaches to really ramp up their year-round involvement with this level of involvement.

From what I'm reading, this rule has been skirted by a lot of other high school coaches in the state, and interestingly, judging by some of these posts, it seems that a lot of people have known about it. I'm not naive enough to believe that it never happens, I just wasn't aware that it happened so much and so overtly.

(BTW, Swamp - I agree, your new travel team name is hilarious.)

You have to be kidding here...do I need to name the NVTBL teams that are fully loaded with kids from individual HS's? (which I won't, other than in a PM, but it could not be more obvious) I have ZERO problem with these schools forming their "feeder" teams, even though most fail, but don't turn your head and say they don't exist in the Northern District...they do.

quote:

Originally posted by dblemup:
You have to be kidding here...do I need to name the NVTBL team that are fully loaded with kids from individual HS's? I have ZERO problem with these schools forming their "feeder" teams, even though most fail, but don't turn your head and say they don't exist in the Northern District...they do.

Yeah...this isn't limited to the Tidewater area. I personally know of teams in every region that bypass this rule.

1) The personal earning power of HS coaches can be enhanced by participating in and/or managing feeder teams. It seems to me that with the cat out of the bag, more coaches will gravitate towards this model: that's simple economics. As usual, follow the money.

2) Having said that, the last thing anyone wants is to force a decision to be made by families between the HS coach's out-of-season team and a showcase or travel team. You don't want to bifurcate, rather, you want to cooperate where off-season workouts compliment the players' team schedule, whether it is showcase, travel or feeder. Forcing a decision alienates, while embracing the change in rules has the opportunity to provide greater opportunities to advance skill sets.

I don't think that this is going to be akin to s****r where the studs ignore the HS squads to play on the upper level club or academy teams, but you really don't want to start going down this path.

If there's any pressure to participate in "feeder" teams, it will be applied to the average HS player. Additionally, those kids will be "encouraged" to receive professional instruction from their bud$. The four or five studs will still play for the elite showcase programs.

We play summer/fall for an organization outside our high school circle. If we are "highly encouraged" to participate in a coach's "feeder" team, I know which team we will drop first.

No, Blemup, I am not kidding here. What I said was that the HS coaches I know in this area do not coach their HS feeder or franchise teams, even indirectly. I am cetainly aware that there are a lot of NVTBL coaches that are HS coaches, but those that I am aware of are careful to be sure to stay within the limits of the rules as far as player participation. If you know of coaches that have been violating this rule, and have been coaching what amount to feeder or franchise teams, feel free to PM me. Also, it's a good thing you have zero problem with this, because it's a guarantee that it will now happen at all schools (and BTW, I am in favor of this because at least it levels the playing field to some extent between the coaches that have been skirting/ignoring/violating the rules, and those that have been more honest).

Redbird, I'm sure there are teams in every region that have been doing this, and I intentionally did not single out the Tidewater area in my post. Again, I said that I'm not naive about this, that I had heard about these things happening, but that I'm a little surprised in reading all the previous posts on this thread that is has apparently been rather blatant with a lot of programs.

Finally, I agree totally w/ Joemkting's remarks.

I have never had a problem with a coach doing what OBC described. If a kid wants to take extra lessons, and pay the coach, then that's perfectly alright with me, so long as that coach does lessons for all players, not only "his own." By and large, these guys are underpaid for their HS coaching, and this is an excellent way to earn a few extra bucks. None of these guys are getting rich off of this. And I think there is a world of difference between this and overtly (or secretly) coaching a team full of your players in the offseason. The reasons for and against this have been thoroughly discussed in all of the posts on this thread.

I agree, a great discussion.

To be clear, I am not saying that high school coaches shouldn't get get offseason baseball work (run teams, offer instruction, etc.). I am saying that they shouldn't coach their own high school players doing it. Even believing the best in coaches (who I agree don't make that much for the time they put in), the opportunities for conflicts of interest, IMO, are too amplified.

quote:

do I need to name the NVTBL teams that are fully loaded with kids from individual HS's?

Why do that when one can go to NVTBL's site & read the descriptions there?
FWIW, the Northern Region has had more severe restrictions on Coach involvement in most sports than the rest of the Commonwealth. Rumor has it that the NR will continue this practice...
I just don't see this "new rule", by legalizing already common practice (and bringing VA in line w/most other states), having much practical/real world impact, especially on the better teams/organizations.

Good point, OBC. 100% agreed that there are a lot of opportunities for conflicts. In a perfect world, the conflicts wouldn't happen, but we all know that we don't live in a perfect world. And as we can see by the previous posts in this thread, there are always coaches out there that will brazenly ignore the rules, regardless of how stringent or lenient those rules are.

As every good ole boy knows....If you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin...!!!

I'm not sure that I agree totally with the statement that kids will be afraid that if they don't sign on with their coaches team that they will fall out of favor. Many of the more elite players have been with programs like the Canes/Stars/Braves for a while or have worked their way up into them and they know that while their HS program is important that it is these other squads that are really what gets them out there and seen. So I doubt that they would give that up simply because their HS coach might get upset. I just think that the Showcase circuit is such a powerful player in moving a kid to the next level that the top kids will not think twice. And do you really think that most HS coaches would drop that star player simply because he didn't play for him in the summer? It might affect the next tier down but not the top talent... Just my $.02