Watch out for this play!!!

Haha. My coach brags at the beginning of every single season on how much he used that EXACT play every chance he got and that it has never failed him through 15 years of coaching high school and legion ball.

I've known about this play for some time.  Don't think I've ever seen it live.  It is flat out cheating and no coach (HS or otherwise) should be so blatantly teaching kids how to cheat.

I have talked to umpires about it and they have told me that when it happens its about as angry as they ever get at a coach and they lose all respect for him.

As a former president of a youth league, we would have banned any coach who did something like this.  If our sons' HS coaches had ever done this (they did not - and one was one of the best coaches in America, I cannot imagine him doing such a thing), there would have been a very stern conversation between them and me.  Mighta been the end of our sons' time playing for any coach who would do this.  Period.

Yeah, there's actually some video of a college team pulling this a few years ago.  Fastest 2nd to home time ever recorded.  On the video the umps missed it and the opposing coach went nuclear and was tossed.

I agree with Justbaseball- simply cheating! No respect at all for an coach that would teach this and would not want my son' playing for them.

Kinda reminds me of old baseball movies I've watched.  Good for your son.  Very funny.

I've seen it done with the runner turning third on the edge of the dirt while not coming close to touching third. It's not a play I would have taught.

Every team should have one of these kids.  I'm visualizing the play, lol.

NYCTBaseball posted:

Haha. My coach brags at the beginning of every single season on how much he used that EXACT play every chance he got and that it has never failed him through 15 years of coaching high school and legion ball.

If I coached against this guy, he pulled this against my team and the umps didn't catch it I would probably end up fighting him.  Honestly I wouldn't fight him but the desire to do so would be there.  What I would do is report him to the state association / umpires association to let them know this needs to be addressed and have a supervisor of officials watch the game secretly.  Then I would let every single coach I know about him running this play and ask them to boycott playing his team.  There is no place for junk like this because it is flat out cheating.

I completely agree with JUSTBASEBALL and COACH2709, its flat out cheating not to mention teaching HS kids to cheat.  Just not right. 

Today - with video you'd think an eye in the sky or any number of people in the stands would make this an easy report to a Conference.  Player and coach should earn pretty good penalties.

I must say that my teams have never done this play or even practiced the play.  I was only told by an old school coach that would run the play.  There is only one coach that I would ever run this play against and I would probably tell the umpires afterwards my reasoning.  The coach that I would run this against is hated by all umpires and coaches in the area. He is ejected at least once every tournament, but just cant change his ways. He repeatedly is yelling out loud to his players, "spikes up, into second son."  My best memory is a dose of his own medicine to his son.  He would run a pick-off play with his son at SS.  SS would break early drop down with both knees and whole body in front of second base.  Runner would go to dive back and never make it to the base.  His son went to a big tournament with us and I told the kid to dont even think about using that play.  Anyways, we are playing against this team with one of my favorite players at second( farm boy I coached since he was 5, 9 years prior).  They tried it once on the pick, didnt work.  I yell at top of my lungs, if they try that again, take him out on the dive back, he has to allow you half of the base.  He yells across the diamond, my son is a linebacker, go ahead try it.  So,,, they tried again but SS was a little slow getting there and runner saw him dive back, runner at second dives back towards SS right at mid thigh as he is crashing.  SS goes down, runner safe, SS pops up and is trying to "walk it off" and he is severely limping around bag and 2B area.  Runner is standing at second with a smile of contentment.Needless to say they never tried it again, and the coach was quiet.  We never lost to that team, and later that year the son was pitching against us, farm boy goes yard, my son goes yard, and the next 2 batters hit the top of fence, the coaches son walked off the mound and handed the ball to his dad.  Lunatic coach's kid is a very good player that has signed to play college baseball, but our team had beat him mentally too many times after that.

Who gets to be arbitrator on cheating versus the little cheats of the game? Stealing signals is cheating. Getting intentionally hit by a pitch or a throw is cheating. Pulling a pitch back into the strike zone and fooling an umpire is cheating. Diving for a ball and rolling over it so the umpire doesn't see it on the ground is cheating. No! These are little cheats players learn. I've never seen a player say to an umpire, "I'm sorry sir. You missed the call. I was out."

Actually, I have seen a player tell an umpire, no I was out.  It was my son. He steals second, sweep tag came by as he dives.  Umpire calls him safe.  SS says, I tagged him out.  Umpire asks mys son, did he tag you, and he politely responds, yeh he tagged me.  Runner OUT.  We talked about that one afterwards, dont lie but dont surrender information if not mandated.

IDK, We ran that play in t-ball.  Along with the one where you just run to 2b after you hit it.   

How is stealing signs cheating?  IMO, that is a sign that the other team has poor coaching in the first place.  For example, in scrimmage games, etc. you make sure that the 1st base coach can't read the catcher's sign.  You make sure that if you signal, you have an indicator and brush off.  Some coaches are just lazy.  Where are the written rules saying that a coach can't steal signs and it is cheating?  There are written rules denoting the base path, the progression to score and missing a base is an out.  That makes cutting 3rd cheating and it is deplorable for any coach to teach that crap.  While no longer a baseball coach, when I was, I had earned a lot of respect in the area from other coaches.  Heck, I had mentored half of them.  So, you'd better bet I'd do my best to destroy the reputation of any coach who tried this against my team. 

CoachB25 posted:

How is stealing signs cheating?  IMO, that is a sign that the other team has poor coaching in the first place.  For example, in scrimmage games, etc. you make sure that the 1st base coach can't read the catcher's sign.  You make sure that if you signal, you have an indicator and brush off.  Some coaches are just lazy.  Where are the written rules saying that a coach can't steal signs and it is cheating?  There are written rules denoting the base path, the progression to score and missing a base is an out.  That makes cutting 3rd cheating and it is deplorable for any coach to teach that crap.  While no longer a baseball coach, when I was, I had earned a lot of respect in the area from other coaches.  Heck, I had mentored half of them.  So, you'd better bet I'd do my best to destroy the reputation of any coach who tried this against my team. 

Look at the big picture in my statement. Not one small point. Who decides what's cheating and what isn't. Your question is a perfect example.

Does the coach who teaches that play get to stand in the batter's box and face the pitcher who is ticked off at what was just pulled? 

Personally, I'd expect to get thrown at if I was the next batter.

Not saying throwing at a batter is right - just saying it wouldn't surprise me at all.

CoachB25 posted:

How is stealing signs cheating?  IMO, that is a sign that the other team has poor coaching in the first place.  For example, in scrimmage games, etc. you make sure that the 1st base coach can't read the catcher's sign.  You make sure that if you signal, you have an indicator and brush off.  Some coaches are just lazy.  Where are the written rules saying that a coach can't steal signs and it is cheating?  There are written rules denoting the base path, the progression to score and missing a base is an out.  That makes cutting 3rd cheating and it is deplorable for any coach to teach that crap.  While no longer a baseball coach, when I was, I had earned a lot of respect in the area from other coaches.  Heck, I had mentored half of them.  So, you'd better bet I'd do my best to destroy the reputation of any coach who tried this against my team. 

I like this line of discussion because it creates an interesting debate regarding where lines are. 

Real world comparison for CoachB25's position on stealing signs is that it is bad IT security by the opposing Manager.    

Let's say you hack a network and steal data, designs etc. because the company has bad data security in other words - they were bad IT Managers, CEO's etc. so too bad for them.  I eat their lunch make millions and they lose and go out of business.

How would the police, SEC or FBI view this?  Fair game or crime?  Plenty of laws on the books regulating commerce and this is a clear crime.  Baseball rule book has fewer pages in it and it is only a game after all so the topic is not addressed. 

Does it make this right or acceptable?  CoachB25 says no rules so fair game - others say unsporting play and cheating.

This thread started with a base runner cutting a corner and now we are talking about stealing signs or otherwise grey areas.  It is fair to say that all of this comes down to individual sensibilities.  One person's black and white perspective to right and wrong will conflict with another's more flexible stance on individual situations and what is in the rules/laws.  It is worth noting that Lawyers make a wonderful living arguing these concepts in courts.  

My feeling about this is that sign stealing is unworthy below HS.  HS is probably fair game but I'd lean toward over the top.  The level of competition might influence my thinking.  College and Professionals better have their acts together.

Fascinating post Luv.  Your analogy is interesting, but like all analogies, flawed.  Corporate officers and inventors generally use 21st century means of confidential data transmission. They don't stand on a field openly communicating with sign language, as baseball players and coaches do and have done for more than a century.  

I think the problem with "stealing signs" is semantic.  Since they are out in the open, your opponent can't steal your sign, he can only observe it.   So it's up to you to encode the sign so that he can't parse its meaning. If you don't, that's on you, not him.

(note that it's baseball so there are plenty of exceptions based on unwritten rules, as well as what's acceptable in different age groups and levels)

If "stealing" signs is considered cheating, then I might argue that giving signs is cheating.  If you are a really good team, then you might actually want the other team to "steal" the initial signs - then simply switch up signs and you are good to go.  Switching sports to football - is it cheating for the QB to markedly change his cadence?  If he doesn't, the defense will soon "steal" his cadence and get better jumps.  

My take on issues like this is that if one team is using a legal (or not illegal) method to gain an advantage (giving signs in this example) then it is fair game that the opposing team work to disallow any advantage (stealing the signs in this example).  

Please don't get caught up on "is stealing signals illegal?" It strays from the point of "who is to decide what is illegal and what isn't?"

The best way to handle this is the following.  When you play this team you set up a video camera in order to catch the play.  You then inform the umpire crew prior to the game that they run this play and you have a video camera set up to capture it.  You go to tell them that if they do run this play you are filing a protest on the game and using video evidence to support your protest.  I guarantee they catch it!  Not sure if the protest will be upheld but, the umpires will be keeping an eye on it.

Why stop at running from second to home?  Break into the little league clubhouse at night, change the official scorers sheet on a 9yo all star game pitch count and then turn them into district after the kid pitches again in his next game.  That'll teach them for working hard at the game while your team spends time on very silly plays.

Hacking into someone's computer is against the law both state and federal.  I don't understand the comparison.  I know people who have been fined and imprisoned for hacking.  Some of you know per this site that there was a hacker involved making threats who was caught.   Stealing signs is not against the law or the "Official Rules of the Game" as established by the National Federation of Coaches.  Cutting corners while running the bases and not advancing base to base violates the Official Rules of the Game per base running.  (National Federation approved Rule Book)

Umpire's perspective: 

Put me down as skeptical that this is an effective strategy at any level with competent umpires.

In our association, in two-man mechanics with a runner on second only, the plate umpire has responsibility for the touch at third on an infield grounder.

So the premise is flawed. Coaching the runner to cut across the diamond as soon as the base umpire starts moving from C toward first shouldn't work. It's still happening in front of the plate umpire.

An uncontested touch, even when it's not in line with your primary responsibility (fair/foul in this case), isn't a heavy lift as long as you know your responsibilities, have a sense of timing and use peripheral vision.

I readily acknowledge that it is possible to miss the precise moment the base is touched if it happens at a crucial time in the fair/foul decision (i.e., when the ball rolls dead or a defensive player touches it).

But a trained, attentive umpire will track the runner's progress from second to third with his peripheral vision, and he'll know if the blatant act described above occurs. 

Regarding the idea of warning the umpire before the game: that conversation will never get started. I have one pregame discussion--at home plate with both coaches present. I will not entertain a private discussion with one coach on how to do my job.  I can't imagine any of the high school coaches in our area being so rude as to attempt to instruct me.

I also cannot imagine it happening to a crew in our association without an immediate teaching email on the subject being issued by our association leadership. Especially if video exists. If it ever worked in a high school game in our area, word would spread so fast that nobody could pull it off again for about ten years.

Regarding the video and the appeal/protest.  If a team appeals a missed base, the umpires make their ruling, and it's not subject to a protest, even if there is indisputable video evidence. And if a coach tries to introduce video evidence during the game, he gets ejected. So that's not happening either.

My biggest basis for skepticism is the risk-reward for the coach. The only time it might make sense to attempt a sac bunt with a runner on second only is with nobody out and when that runner represents a potential tying or lead run. 

If the ploy doesn't work, instead of a runner on third with one out, you have the bases empty with two outs.

Why in heaven's name would a coach risk throwing away the tying or go ahead run with such an easily detected ruse? 

I can't even remember the last time I've seen a team bunt in a runner on second, no outs situation. Teams with runners on second and nobody out generally try to hit through the right side and give themselves a chance at a big inning. 

Not saying it can't happen. Not saying it hasn't happened. However, I am saying I don't believe any coach above daddy ball employs it successfully on a regular basis.

I've tried to tip off baseball and basketball officials to dirty tricks the other team may pull.  Don't like it. It's being told how to do their job. However, it did get a basketball ref to start watching a player a little more closely after the first recognizable offense. The kid did exactly what I said he would do.

RJM posted:

I've tried to tip off baseball and basketball officials to dirty tricks the other team may pull.  Don't like it. It's being told how to do their job. However, it did get a basketball ref to start watching a player a little more closely after the first recognizable offense. The kid did exactly what I said he would do.

When I officiated football and worked a wing position, I never had a problem with coaches saying things in the heat of the game like,"The TE is holding," or, "The DT is lining up in the neutral zone every play." It was easy to say, "I'll keep an eye on it," and move on.

It would be an entirely different matter for a coach to approach me before the game for the purpose of informing me of his suspicion that the other coach will attempt to cheat in a certain situation and of warning me that he will be taking video of the event. Such an attempted conference would be a non-starter.

Oh damn,  I thought this was lighthearted conversation.

I'm not for cheating nor have I ever told my son to cheat.  But just the thought is funny as hell. 

@swampboy:  I saw a Legion coach do it about 6 years ago...  I recall it because it happened against my middle son's team.  The coach was also a former college coach and has been known to work the rules and understands the umpire mechanics.  I can guarantee he set the play up earlier in the game asking a player to bunt down the first base line just to how the umpires handled the play.  Then when he *needed* the run later in the game he employed the "strategy".   Suffice to say my son's team was "hot" about what happened and didn't forget it even years later.  The umpires of that game got the word out and I doubt he ever successfully ran that play again.  Was it worth it for 1 run? I doubt it. Neither team made playoffs...  But one team was branded as cheaters.

Go44dad posted:

Why stop at running from second to home?  Break into the little league clubhouse at night, change the official scorers sheet on a 9yo all star game pitch count and then turn them into district after the kid pitches again in his next game.  That'll teach them for working hard at the game while your team spends time on very silly plays.

Sounds like Bill Bellichick. 

I would rate a pitcher intentionally throwing at a batters head a worse offense than cutting across the diamond and missing third base on the way to home.