Weight lifting and pitchers

My son lifts at school where he does a lot of what some may say is football lifts but our weightlifting coach is also head baseball coach.  Works a lot on legs and does some arms and shoulders but stays away from heavy shoulder lifts with true baseball players, especially son.

We also work 2/3 days a week after school on core with stretching exercises to open hips and 20lb slam ball to work on core and waist mobility.    I have watched several college teams and they lift pretty much the same way the football team does except a few things during off season.  Reducing heavy weights during season.  I'm also interested to see what the guys who have been there say.  Especially interested in comments on pitchers.

I'd listen to his private PC. Way to much can go wrong in a HS weight room; egos, contests between players, poor supervision leading to poor form which leads to injury, players in differing stages of puberty cannot be doing the same exercises, and more. (Even in college these things happen.)

Especially for pitchers, individually constructed strength programs can really help. (Just look at the differing body types: a HS "stringbean" needs a different program from a guy with a "catchers" build.)

Until physical maturity, I believe flexability is way more important then a big tush.

Well, without seeing what the workout routine is, it would be impossible to say.  My guess is that he is probably at least partially right.  I would suggest doing some research on do's and don't's for conditioning/lifting for baseball players, specifically pitchers.  There is some conflicting info out there but it will at least give you a base to work from.  It is fairly common for college programs to have separate lifting programs for P's as opposed to what the position players do.  It is also fairly common that baseball players in general are recommended to stay away from certain types of lifting that football players do.  Unfortunately, it is also not uncommon for the HS group lifting to be very generic and more likely specific to football lifts vs baseball specific.

The P coach may also be concerned about timing.  I don't think you want a guy to come out for a full on bullpen and lesson immediately after a full on lifting session.  Part of your research should be going straight to the P coach and asking specifically what the concerns are.

Of course, if you do the research and confirm that some of the lifts are not good for baseball P's, then you (your son) still have the challenge of figuring out how to address this with the baseball coach conducting the team lifts.  We'd need more info for that 

Some of your research can be done by searching some related threads here and/or asking that specific question...  there are some really knowledgeable folks here with that topic.

PS - and just as i finish posting I see that one of them posted in front of me... ask him specific questions!

All good thoughts, although I'll add one more caveat. Make sure the PC knows what he's talking about when it comes to a specific program, as well. Just because he gives lessons doesn't mean he's well-versed in it. Most are, I've found, but I had one kid who's pitching coach (yes, an old MLB guy) told him he wasn't allowed to lift over 50% of his body weight on any lift. So make sure you do your research on your own. 

Several things to consider here before an appropriate decision can be made.

#1: What level of instruction is going into the lifting program? Is the baseball coach in charge, who may or may not have a clue how to do proper squats, deadlifts, cleans, bench or whatever the program is, or, is a qualified strength coach with a quality background involved?

#2: Is the program in synch with bullpens for pitchers & the throwing program? Whatever that may be.

The dangers here are many. Heavy overhead lifting combined with regular throwing can be a potential problem. Improper lifting technique can result in serious injury.

If these programs are not administered by someone(s) with pro level advanced knowledge, & administered on an individual basis,  I would advise your boy to stick with the leg & core workout portion of the lifting program & go extremely moderate or skip the upper body portion if he is going to be full swing throwing throughout.  

My son who played baseball in college at Ohio State a pitcher. He was drafted in 2013 by White Sox, played in WBC for team Israel, was traded to Diamondbacks this June. A reliever since being drafted. Still playing but on DL for first time since being drafted. In high school had a private pitching coach. Was told lower body only for weight lifting and stretching and core only for upper body. Was told to swim by both PC and at Ohio State. My son was also quarterback in high school. Very conflicting on weights. He did do football weight training against PC advice. End of story at age 15 got stress fracture in pitching arm which led to proximal humourous fracture. Shut down whole year. Arm specialist at Cleveland Clinic said his injury was due to weight lifting for football. Was doing dead weight lifts. I say no from experience. There is a happy medium that needs to be figured out. 

Thank you

I've been lifting weights for 30 frkn years and my son is a pitcher.  I didn't have him touch weights until the winter of his junior year.  Focus was legs and decelerator muscles.

Your son is a freshman, I'd chill with the weightlifting 

Good advice so far.

IMHO, Find out that the routines are and go from there. I have access to my son's college routines if you need to see what his school did.  He is a sub 6' RHP. PM me

15 can be early, my son started (seriously and religiously) at 16ish or so and the results were impressive. He was also an NSCA All American in baseball at college this past year and was the 1st baseball player ever to do that there.

Lifting weights matters for pitchers.

I think there's a ton of opinions around weightlifting for pitchers, with very few clear answers.  The key at your sons age is to build the discipline and desire to put in the work.  Taking him out of the weight room is a bad idea, IMO.  I've never met a HS Freshman that couldn't benefit from a football workout . . .

Also, follow as many baseball training folks on Instragram as you can.  Most put out some really good, free information, and the more you learn, the better you'll be able to decide what you feel is best for your son.  There is certainly debate on the types of lifts, however I've found NONE of them that say stay out of the weight room, or focus on legs only for HS kids.

If you feel your son is a D1 prospect, the stronger, the better.  If not, then perhaps you have another year or so before strength becomes important.

Your pitching coaches reluctance to work with your son because he lifts weights is the most concerning part of your post.  For me, there's many red flags in that statement.

Just my opinion, if your son is 15, he should be lifting.  Pitcher or position player.

Follow Eric Cressey, Kyle Body (Driveline) and/or Mike Reinhold.  Read their stuff.  All well regarded as far as working out pitchers.  I got the Eric Cressey "Sports Performance" package for $89 or something a year plus ago.  Well worth it.

Just before freshman year of HS, I got my son a few sessions with a personal trainer to do nothing but teach him correct form on squats, deadlifts and variations of each.  Because at some point he would be unsupervised in a gym with other numbskulls just like him.  At least if he did something stupid, it would be with correct form.

For the last couple of years, when not in the grind of the summer season, my son sees a personal trainer once a week (Danny Arnold w/Plex https://www.plexathlete.com/pro-athlete) and works out three times a week on his own at a gym following an Eric Cressey workout.

Son is a Junior in HS now, and is a pitcher.

I believe a big problem with these questions is understanding the base starting point from which it comes from.  As someone else stated, I have seen very few 15yr olds that have a solid base to work from.  Most would benefit greatly from just about any lifting program.  Until that base strength is built, specializing seems like putting the cart before the horse.  

My son is now a senior and in the off season he has pretty much always done weightlifting at school along with after school baseball workouts( mostly speed, agility, yoga, med ball core, etc). He has never had a problem. He does not do dead lifts, clean and jerk, or over head presses unless it it really light weight. He rarely if ever does maxing out,  he generally tries to do more reps than the position players but with lighter weight. Never done a velocity program, but does do some long toss with other school pitchers in the off season. Velocity has continued to increase from low 80s as a fresh to low 90s this past summer.  I think weightlifting is fine but he should talk to the coach and explain that his primary focus is pitching and if he is knowledgeable, then he should allow some modifications which are pretty widely accepted for pitchers. 

GO44Dad has it right. 

Most Dads over think this and most pitching coaches are clueless when it comes to modern weight training for pitchers. More good is going to come from weight training than bad IMO. The single best lift for pitchers is the dead lift, but it does require technique, second best is a clean. (no jerk)  Build lower body strength and watch the velo go up with it. 

BOF posted:

GO44Dad has it right. 

Most Dads over think this and most pitching coaches are clueless when it comes to modern weight training for pitchers. More good is going to come from weight training than bad IMO. The single best lift for pitchers is the dead lift, but it does require technique, second best is a clean. (no jerk)  Build lower body strength and watch the velo go up with it. 

I'd have to agree with you and a couple of others. I thought all ballplayers were lifting now. 

For a second there, after reading all the "no lifting " replies, I thought I was back in the 70's. That was the thinking back then. I don't believe that a player has to spend all his time lifting weights...there are all kinds of other ways to train...but they have got to be training their body for strength, flexibility, and explosiveness. 

  My boys are naturally very thin, and need to eat like horses and weight train just to put on a few pounds. Speed is their gift. They have to work like hell to get some heft. Other, heavier set players might need less weight training, have to watch their diet, and do some yoga or dance classes(don't laugh till you've survived a stretch class) to get more fit and agile. There is no one size fits all, but, in general, I don't know of any serious Baseball training program that doesn't involve at least some weight training.

   The only thing I don't hold with is a using a lot of protein powder/supplements for kids under 18, and none for kids under 16. Never mind the "harder stuff", which is unfortunately around, too. You pay the price by not getting as big, but I simply don't trust that stuff.

You'd be hard pressed to find elite Pitchers who don't lift.  Deadlifts & Squats are a staple, building that lower half.

I do subscribe with the notion that Baseball players shouldn't bench press, and instead should do dumbbell presses.

I would be surprised if there is a Power 5 school that doesn't have their pitchers lifting some very serious weights!

I was surprised to read comments about deadlifts being good. I have seen some injuries, which could be from bad form/poor supervision. But I always heard to stay away from deadlifts and do leg presses, etc instead. May need to update my reading list.  As usual, mostly good advise on here, and good to see different viewpoints to keep informed. 

My son started lifting this year. I admit I bullied him into documenting his progression and more recently his nutrition; what and especially when. Luckily his rising soph cousin is a "fitness phreak" (my feeble attempt at their vernacular) so he is drinking the koolaid and sees how important tracking progress is to his overall development. At least for me there still are ways to influence a PITA belligerent teenager

3and2Fastball posted:

You'd be hard pressed to find elite Pitchers who don't lift.  Deadlifts & Squats are a staple, building that lower half.

I do subscribe with the notion that Baseball players shouldn't bench press, and instead should do dumbbell presses.

I would be surprised if there is a Power 5 school that doesn't have their pitchers lifting some very serious weights!

Deadlifts and squats are high risk exercises and should only be done w/ proper supervision (which hardly ever takes place n HS).  A better solution is using lighter weights for these lifts.  There is no reason for a baseball player to ever do any Olympic style weight lifting or any max lifting, IMO & in the opinion of the prominent ortho surgeon who performed a double microdiscectemy on my son when he was 17 due to an injury caused by this exact issue (no supervision of weight lifting at his HS).  Leg strength is essential (especially for pitchers) but there are plenty of ways to get there without a high risk of injury. The goal for any baseball player is to gain strength without losing flexibility.  Too many "strength coaches" don't seem to understand that.  I am a big proponent of having pitchers lift weights - but it needs to be done with the proper goal in mind.    

You absolutely need to learn how to correctly lift from a qualified instructor.  My kid works out with a former Big Ten strength coach.  I wouldn't let him near a high school weight room.  When he lifts on his own, with me supervising, he never goes heavier than 75% of max.

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

You'd be hard pressed to find elite Pitchers who don't lift.  Deadlifts & Squats are a staple, building that lower half.

I do subscribe with the notion that Baseball players shouldn't bench press, and instead should do dumbbell presses.

I would be surprised if there is a Power 5 school that doesn't have their pitchers lifting some very serious weights!

Deadlifts and squats are high risk exercises and should only be done w/ proper supervision (which hardly ever takes place n HS).  A better solution is using lighter weights for these lifts.  There is no reason for a baseball player to ever do any Olympic style weight lifting or any max lifting, IMO & in the opinion of the prominent ortho surgeon who performed a double microdiscectemy on my son when he was 17 due to an injury caused by this exact issue (no supervision of weight lifting at his HS).  Leg strength is essential (especially for pitchers) but there are plenty of ways to get there without a high risk of injury. The goal for any baseball player is to gain strength without losing flexibility.  Too many "strength coaches" don't seem to understand that.  I am a big proponent of having pitchers lift weights - but it needs to be done with the proper goal in mind.    

From my experience, and every strength coach, article and research I have have looked into.  Olympic lifts INCREASE mobility.

real green posted:

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

You'd be hard pressed to find elite Pitchers who don't lift.  Deadlifts & Squats are a staple, building that lower half.

I do subscribe with the notion that Baseball players shouldn't bench press, and instead should do dumbbell presses.

I would be surprised if there is a Power 5 school that doesn't have their pitchers lifting some very serious weights!

Deadlifts and squats are high risk exercises and should only be done w/ proper supervision (which hardly ever takes place n HS).  A better solution is using lighter weights for these lifts.  There is no reason for a baseball player to ever do any Olympic style weight lifting or any max lifting, IMO & in the opinion of the prominent ortho surgeon who performed a double microdiscectemy on my son when he was 17 due to an injury caused by this exact issue (no supervision of weight lifting at his HS).  Leg strength is essential (especially for pitchers) but there are plenty of ways to get there without a high risk of injury. The goal for any baseball player is to gain strength without losing flexibility.  Too many "strength coaches" don't seem to understand that.  I am a big proponent of having pitchers lift weights - but it needs to be done with the proper goal in mind.    

From my experience, and every strength coach, article and research I have have looked into.  Olympic lifts INCREASE mobility.

They do but they are technical lifts that can be harmful when performed incorrectly. My son started learning how to perform bodyweight movements in middle school so was able to hit the ground running as frosh in high school which included the used of olympic lifts.  Also played both football and baseball so lifted with football team most of the year. However, I am also a teacher/coach in the building so was able to monitor his technique when performing all strength training. I eventually had him stop racking the clean because he struggled to get under the bar (catching it low) and was putting a ton of stress on anterior shoulder. There are modifications that can be made to olympic lifts to make them safer for overhead athletes which includes the use of hang cleans, high pulls, etc.

I would also agree with a number of responses in that high school weightrooms can be a little scary. I am so thankful that I was able to be a part of his training to prevent bad technique and injury but know that is not the case for most of you.

Also a note in regards to deadlift...definitely a great full body movement when performed correctly. Highly recommend the use of trap bar which decreases forces on low back. Make sure your son understands how to hip hinge properly and really important that he learns to create tension by starting to pull on the bar (without lifting it off the ground) and never....never jerks the bar off the floor. Definitely a recipe for pissed off biceps and anterior shoulder pain and/or injury if it is continuously done incorrectly.

Not going to lie, I still remind him to focus on performing the movements correctly and to avoid getting in a competition with other players. Most of the bad technique I have seen in weightroom is when younger athletes are trying to compete with the veterans who are older and are more physically developed.

I have to admit the lack of supervision during lifts scares me in the HS gym. My kid school has a very impressive gym and they have multiple sports programs that require lifting and they have a former NFL player as the S&C coach and  I am sure he is qualified but it still worries me

I suggested following Eric Cressey earlier.  Here is his general answer to adapting football lifting programs to baseball players.  BTW, his full baseball program has traditional deadlifts at 70 - 80% of max and many variations of one leg deadlifts.

Go44, that's a great gem... hadn't seen it put in simple straight forward terms like that before.  

Agree 100% on Hex Bar/Trap Bar for Deadlifts.

The 90 MPH formula by Josh Heenan pretty much covers the strength needed to stay injury free and have the strength to throw and hit very hard. Driveline Baseball and Texas Baseball Ranch both promote ballistic training as well. There is more than one right way to do it. However, I’ve found that lifting heavy with good form in the 3-8 rep range has helped the most. Also, trap bar deadlifts are definitely the way to go for baseball players. Also, don’t discount all football lifts. For example, the power clean is a great exercise to increase explosiveness when done right.

But we won two world wars with pushups, situps and jumping jacks.  And no stretching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_N7SHxmgH0

Go44dad posted:

But we won two world wars with pushups, situps and jumping jacks.  And no stretching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_N7SHxmgH0

More Bob...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54yzXfNXXaQ

cabbagedad posted:

Go44dad posted:

But we won two world wars with pushups, situps and jumping jacks.  And no stretching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_N7SHxmgH0

More Bob...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54yzXfNXXaQ

 

Too funny.  Big Ass Belly + Cleveland Browns = Don't Listen to a Thing he Says!!

I see nothing wrong with proper weight lifting. Even bench. It’s about form, however most kids who think they have great form are sadly mistaken.

after my tommy john done by a top doctor, I was told multiple times that putting on muscle will add more stability. Ofcourse flexibility, mechanics, and  all that plays a part, but I firmly believe the stronger I can make my shoulder, arms, back, and legs, the less stress I’ll have on my elbow.

A 15 year old high school pitcher who wants to get better needs to start getting stronger.

A pitching coach may or may not be qualified to oversee conditioning. 

Check out Kyle Body and Eric Cressey's sites. Find a local guy who a disciple of one of them, and you won't go wrong. 

Best wishes,

Strength always plays.  Get stronger, throw harder.  My son is a D1 pitcher and a very strong guy, he back squatted 460 the other day and deadlifts 515 like its a loaf of bread lol.

His younger brother was 85 from the outfield, started lifting and working on flexibility and now hes up to 91.  He turned 17 in July.

If your son wants to talk to him, im sure hed be happy to share some tips with him.  He can holler at him on twitter @28_tyler_28

Having witnessed 13 to15 year olds throw 90+ mph (and one 12 year old at 85), it makes me wonder how much dead lifts and Olympic lifts play into velocity? Maybe Kyle will chime in on this......

Not that I am aware of. However, there is Josh Heenan's 90 MPH formula that many follow in attempts to gain velo.  I think it is important that athletes and coaches understand that the deadlift is not just about building leg strength. The DL is a full-body lift that primarily targets the posterior chain to include the gastroc/soleus, biceps femoris, glutes , erector spinae, trapezius, lattisimus dorsi. Anyone who has ever performed heavy DL's will tell you that overall body soreness is very common after an intense DL session. If you want your son to get stronger in all of the right areas to improve overall performance and avoid injury, I HIGHLY recommend DL's. Just make sure you know how to train them and don't give your son any wiggle room with poor technique. Train with lower weights until he becomes proficient. Also important to note that there are numerous studies showing a correlation between strength and straight line speed and change of direction.

Great quote from Cressey that provides additional benefits of strength training which would include DL: "Biggest regret I hear from college athletes? They should've started strength training sooner. Getting stronger is a game changer for performance AND the ability to acquire new skills. If you're 21 and just gaining strength you should have had when at age 16, you're way behind."

coachld posted:

Not that I am aware of. However, there is Josh Heenan's 90 MPH formula that many follow in attempts to gain velo.  I think it is important that athletes and coaches understand that the deadlift is not just about building leg strength. The DL is a full-body lift that primarily targets the posterior chain to include the gastroc/soleus, biceps femoris, glutes , erector spinae, trapezius, lattisimus dorsi. Anyone who has ever performed heavy DL's will tell you that overall body soreness is very common after an intense DL session. If you want your son to get stronger in all of the right areas to improve overall performance and avoid injury, I HIGHLY recommend DL's. Just make sure you know how to train them and don't give your son any wiggle room with poor technique. Train with lower weights until he becomes proficient. Also important to note that there are numerous studies showing a correlation between strength and straight line speed and change of direction.

Great quote from Cressey that provides additional benefits of strength training which would include DL: "Biggest regret I hear from college athletes? They should've started strength training sooner. Getting stronger is a game changer for performance AND the ability to acquire new skills. If you're 21 and just gaining strength you should have had when at age 16, you're way behind."

If my memory serves me correctly, Kyle mentioned in a post that DLs may be a good way to reduce injury potential, but did not see any mention of a direct relationship to velocity enhancement. Have not seen any correlation of that from Cressey either.  I know the Florida Baseball Ranch turns out 90+ guys frequently and there is not a focus on those lifts. On the other hand, Driveline, Top Velocity and Cressey incorporate those lifts into their training protocols and get fantastic results!

Maybe like you said, the "overall body soreness" is the indicator that the muscle groups associated with throwing are stregthned ????  Currently assesing the "risk vs reward" of those types of lifts for my son.

you do not have to throw 90 + at 15 or 16 to get a P5 deal or get drafted or play D1 ball.... You have to "project" and have the "skills"....... throwing hard means  little once you get in the funnel, velo whittles down the field  and helps to compartmentalize.....   you better be able to spin it or you will never play........ My 2013 topped out at 88-90 as a sr. in college  played D1 ball..... 

all this crap about getting kids to throw harder and harder , it's crap... sure you can get a 82 to 86 maybe a 86 to 90.... but they rarely keep the velo during the season...  

Kyle Wright ( Vanderbilt  5th pick in 2016 ) he was 87-89 in high school.... lanky 6'4  he was 92-94 as a jr. at Vandy of course he was 22 and filled out , be he was not lifting a weights and stressing out at 15.....  

I mean what's the end goal..... ?  College ball ?  pro ball?  ..... the minors is not what it's cracked up to be.... MLB is like winning the lottery..... baseball scholarships are 25 -50% percent in college.... 

Go ahead, tear up you body before you get  thru puberty.... spend countless dollars and enjoy the disappointment , because the numbers are just not there..... enjoy the time..... 

bacdorslider posted:

you do not have to throw 90 + at 15 or 16 to get a P5 deal or get drafted or play D1 ball.... You have to "project" and have the "skills"....... throwing hard means  little once you get in the funnel, velo whittles down the field  and helps to compartmentalize.....   you better be able to spin it or you will never play........ My 2013 topped out at 88-90 as a sr. in college  played D1 ball..... 

all this crap about getting kids to throw harder and harder , it's crap... sure you can get a 82 to 86 maybe a 86 to 90.... but they rarely keep the velo during the season...  

Kyle Wright ( Vanderbilt  5th pick in 2016 ) he was 87-89 in high school.... lanky 6'4  he was 92-94 as a jr. at Vandy of course he was 22 and filled out , be he was not lifting a weights and stressing out at 15.....  

I mean what's the end goal..... ?  College ball ?  pro ball?  ..... the minors is not what it's cracked up to be.... MLB is like winning the lottery..... baseball scholarships are 25 -50% percent in college.... 

Go ahead, tear up you body before you get  thru puberty.... spend countless dollars and enjoy the disappointment , because the numbers are just not there..... enjoy the time..... 

 

Wait, what? You think Driveline, TBR, etc. is crap?

bacdorslider posted:

you do not have to throw 90 + at 15 or 16 to get a P5 deal or get drafted or play D1 ball.... You have to "project" and have the "skills"....... throwing hard means  little once you get in the funnel, velo whittles down the field  and helps to compartmentalize.....   you better be able to spin it or you will never play........ My 2013 topped out at 88-90 as a sr. in college  played D1 ball..... 

all this crap about getting kids to throw harder and harder , it's crap... sure you can get a 82 to 86 maybe a 86 to 90.... but they rarely keep the velo during the season...  

Kyle Wright ( Vanderbilt  5th pick in 2016 ) he was 87-89 in high school.... lanky 6'4  he was 92-94 as a jr. at Vandy of course he was 22 and filled out , be he was not lifting a weights and stressing out at 15.....  

I mean what's the end goal..... ?  College ball ?  pro ball?  ..... the minors is not what it's cracked up to be.... MLB is like winning the lottery..... baseball scholarships are 25 -50% percent in college.... 

Go ahead, tear up you body before you get  thru puberty.... spend countless dollars and enjoy the disappointment , because the numbers are just not there..... enjoy the time..... 

 

That's what I meant when I said chill with the weights, he's a freshman, but your way was more effective.  Ha!