Weight lifting and pitchers

bacdorslider posted:

you do not have to throw 90 + at 15 or 16 to get a P5 deal or get drafted or play D1 ball.... You have to "project" and have the "skills"....... throwing hard means  little once you get in the funnel, velo whittles down the field  and helps to compartmentalize.....   you better be able to spin it or you will never play........ My 2013 topped out at 88-90 as a sr. in college  played D1 ball..... 

all this crap about getting kids to throw harder and harder , it's crap... sure you can get a 82 to 86 maybe a 86 to 90.... but they rarely keep the velo during the season...  

Kyle Wright ( Vanderbilt  5th pick in 2016 ) he was 87-89 in high school.... lanky 6'4  he was 92-94 as a jr. at Vandy of course he was 22 and filled out , be he was not lifting a weights and stressing out at 15.....  

I mean what's the end goal..... ?  College ball ?  pro ball?  ..... the minors is not what it's cracked up to be.... MLB is like winning the lottery..... baseball scholarships are 25 -50% percent in college.... 

Go ahead, tear up you body before you get  thru puberty.... spend countless dollars and enjoy the disappointment , because the numbers are just not there..... enjoy the time..... 

 

True....you see alot of sub 90's guys throwing in the CWS...

Also, what I am learning about the "Next Level" during my 2019's journey is "projection" is in the eye of the beholder.  

bacdorslider posted:

you do not have to throw 90 + at 15 or 16 to get a P5 deal or get drafted or play D1 ball.... You have to "project" and have the "skills"....... throwing hard means  little once you get in the funnel, velo whittles down the field  and helps to compartmentalize.....   you better be able to spin it or you will never play........ My 2013 topped out at 88-90 as a sr. in college  played D1 ball..... 

all this crap about getting kids to throw harder and harder , it's crap... sure you can get a 82 to 86 maybe a 86 to 90.... but they rarely keep the velo during the season...  

Kyle Wright ( Vanderbilt  5th pick in 2016 ) he was 87-89 in high school.... lanky 6'4  he was 92-94 as a jr. at Vandy of course he was 22 and filled out , be he was not lifting a weights and stressing out at 15.....  

I mean what's the end goal..... ?  College ball ?  pro ball?  ..... the minors is not what it's cracked up to be.... MLB is like winning the lottery..... baseball scholarships are 25 -50% percent in college.... 

Go ahead, tear up you body before you get  thru puberty.... spend countless dollars and enjoy the disappointment , because the numbers are just not there..... enjoy the time..... 

 

Bacdorslider,

What are you trying to say?  Your prospectus is interesting.  Hindsight is 20/20.

I am a firm believer that the best training in the world would only increase an athletes potential by a year or two before the funnel gives them the boot.  The problem is no one can tell you when that funnel will pinch you out.  Every athlete has a ceiling.  No matter how much training he/she receives.  

What's the end goal?  Having fun, learning life lessons, learning how to compete, being part of a team, building character, and discipline.  

The short goal is earning a spot/role in the next season.  This has been the same goal for many years.

Every year since 10u, I make it a point to go back one year and watch a game to give myself prospective.  Every year I look and shake my head realizing how trivial the prior year of baseball was/is and try to remember that during the current season.  I am sure when/if my son plays college baseball, looking back, that varsity HS baseball will seem so insignificant.  Which is why I do everything I can today to emphasize that throughout this whole journey the priority needs to be - Having fun, learning life lessons, learning how to compete, being part of a team, building character, and discipline. 

Taking lessons, lifting weights, putting in the work all falls under learn how to compete.  If it gets to the point of interfering with having fun than there is a problem.  

So all in all, no athlete knows the end destination.  Enjoy the journey.  If you are not enjoying the journey something is wrong.  

I think Baseball skills can be developed, most definitely. And strength can absolutely be developed. I also think we need to be realistic about things: strength training, and lifting heavy, is a huge aspect of most College & Pro training, from the smallest D3 to the World Series Champion's MLB team. If you make it to the next level you are going to be lifting heavy weights, at all but a very few exceptions of places. There are many many college Freshman who get worked so hard in their first few weeks of the Fall, who never really got in a good strength program prior to arriving in college, who end up falling very far behind everyone else. Better to get in a good weightlifting program before you get to college, in my opinion.

As to "what's the point" if you are never going to be a P5 or MiLB guy:

1) There are many instances of kids getting into elite universities, including Ivy League schools, with Baseball that they never would have gotten into without Baseball. You mean to tell me that the kid throwing 78 as a HS Freshman with a 4.0 GPA shouldn't push himself extremely hard, get into a strength program and get himself to 85-86 where he can attend an elite school that will help set him up for life? C'mon man!!!!!

2) There are kids who might be considered a huge longshot to play P5 Baseball or Pro Baseball, who love the game and want to take that shot and develop every ounce of talent that the Good Lord blessed them with. By applying themselves with everything they have, not only do they afford themselves the opportunity to play the game they love for more years than they would have, but they develop an incredible work ethic that will stay with them the rest of their lives.

Personally, I believe in strength training for Baseball players. But it has to be done under the patient guidance of a skilled professional strength trainer, preferably someone who has at least been a college strength & conditioning coordinator. Heavy deadlifts, heavy squats, long toss, learning correct throwing mechanics and taking 2-3 months off every year from overhead throwing is what I believe in. And when I say "heavy deadlifts", under the guidance of a qualified strength coach, learning the proper technique of deadlifts, using a hex bar, that is going to take time. To get from a 95 pound deadlift for reps it might take a year to get to 225 for reps for 14-15 year olds. Then maybe add 10 pounds every month or two.... Etc etc

3and2fastball, I agree with you....  2018 has had a personal trainer for 2 years, and went to campus early to start workouts because he knew what the fall was going to be like.    I am not saying that lifting weight is a bad idea.... I am only stating that you have to know what you are doing at a younger age and have a goal in mind... for baseball... I believe I was reading that some of these young players are lifting with football teams, or the coaches are baseball and football coaches... and these players are running a risk of getting injured.

I also get a sense from new parents that if they are not following everything that some ex pro suggests, or a travel coach , whoever, that they are going to fall behind...... and that's not the case either. 

Players at this age change so much from season to season... have a goal and learn how to lift and what exercises will benefit you... one might  benefit one player and not another.  

I just hate to see 15 year olds and their parents to put all this stress on themselves 

AS for whats' the point.... poorly worded on my part, as I had one go to Tuft's ..... so I get what you are saying.

Meant to add:  this is a fantastic discussion.  I don't think there is anything wrong with having heated discussions about these topics.  Baseball is a topic we are all extremely passionate about.  And it is true, there is a ton of money in Baseball development.

Since Driveline was mentioned, I will say this and it is only my opinion.   I have some real doubts about the safety & long term effects of doing weighted ball training.   If I was going to have my kid do weighted ball training, the only place I would allow him to do that would be at the Driveline facility, under their guidance, with them monitoring every aspect of his mechanics and workouts.  

There is no way I'd want my kid doing weighted ball training at some random travel facility under the guidance of a 20 something kid fresh out of D2 ball or whatever... Just my two cents

As stated I'm a big believer in lifting weights, proper mechanics, long toss, and time off from throwing in order to build up throwing velocity.  I've seen it work.

bacdorslider posted:.... I am only stating that you have to know what you are doing at a younger age and have a goal in mind... for baseball... I believe I was reading that some of these young players are lifting with football teams, or the coaches are baseball and football coaches... and these players are running a risk of getting injured.

I also get a sense from new parents that if they are not following everything that some ex pro suggests, or a travel coach , whoever, that they are going to fall behind...... and that's not the case either. 

 

I agree 100% with both of those points, absolutely.  And with what you said about a kid being an individual.  What works for one might not work for another.

I'm not sure it has been said in this thread yet, but I actually believe that Baseball throwers are at a greater risk for injury if they aren't in a good lifting program. (!) 

Developing strength in the legs, strength in the back of the shoulder (developing "deceleration muscles" in the shoulder) will take stress off of the UCL and rotator cuff, again and strongly emphasized:  but only under the careful guidance of a qualified personal trainer!

My kid knows that if he ever sets foot in the High School weight room I will take away his phone and ground him for a few weeks.  Which may sound funny but I'm dead serious!

so i'm confused  all I hear come signing day  is he's a multisport athlete,   also played football yada yada yada.    If that is the case I'm assuming all of these kids lifted with the football team,  the whole 9 yards.    I know the football players at our school are required to lift with football team last period and they are allowed to go to to baseball practice after school.  

gunner34 posted:

so i'm confused  all I hear come signing day  is he's a multisport athlete,   also played football yada yada yada.    If that is the case I'm assuming all of these kids lifted with the football team,  the whole 9 yards.    I know the football players at our school are required to lift with football team last period and they are allowed to go to to baseball practice after school.  

You are correct.  And some high schools do have highly qualified strength coaches.  Definitely not at my son's high school.

"you have to know what you are doing at a younger age and have a goal in mind"

As a parent of a 13yo Freshman who is still adapting to his ever growing body, I can't agree more.  While his HS has great resources for physical fitness, it scares the beejeesus out of me that he could end up hurting himself. I made sure this fall he went to a professional trainer (who is also a DPT) who has a very detailed plan for his strength and conditioning development that included well supervised training with a strong focus on technique. I am very fortunate to have the resources to provide him with this training, but I know there is still a chance for injury 

I think some pitchers can benefit from strength but not everyone. Some hard throwers are really jacked but others are really thin. I have seen super thin kids who never touched any weights throwing upper 80s and super jacked guys who could hit balls 500 feet having embarrassing throwing arms (Frank Thomas, khris davis).

But you can't say that lifting will make you slow either, there are thin guys like sale but also jacked guys like Chapman.

Damn! This got good!!!!

Dominik85 posted:

I think some pitchers can benefit from strength but not everyone. Some hard throwers are really jacked but others are really thin. I have seen super thin kids who never touched any weights throwing upper 80s and super jacked guys who could hit balls 500 feet having embarrassing throwing arms (Frank Thomas, khris davis).

But you can't say that lifting will make you slow either, there are thin guys like sale but also jacked guys like Chapman.

 

 

Have you seen how much Chapman sweats when he is on the hill? There is something odd about that, like maybe there is something else going on with him to attain that velo. Just my opinion. Guy looks like he has a hose under his cap on the hill. Weird. No other pitcher I have seen sweats like that.

GaryMe posted:

Dominik85 posted:

I think some pitchers can benefit from strength but not everyone. Some hard throwers are really jacked but others are really thin. I have seen super thin kids who never touched any weights throwing upper 80s and super jacked guys who could hit balls 500 feet having embarrassing throwing arms (Frank Thomas, khris davis).

But you can't say that lifting will make you slow either, there are thin guys like sale but also jacked guys like Chapman.

 

 

Have you seen how much Chapman sweats when he is on the hill? There is something odd about that, like maybe there is something else going on with him to attain that velo. Just my opinion. Guy looks like he has a hose under his cap on the hill. Weird. No other pitcher I have seen sweats like that.

He could have hyper-hydrosis. 

I deleted a number of posts in this thread because I didn't like seeing two very well respected members going after each other over what I think was a misunderstanding of what each was saying.

We may now resume the discussion of pitchers and weight lifting.

My perspective is that stronger is usually better, but strength programs should be supervised by competent trainers.

Ok. I’m probably about to get bashed but oh well. To many people on here that think they know more than the high school coaches. I doubt that many high school coaches do anything that would hurt kids. Yes there are exceptions but it’s not the rule as you guys make it appear. Everyone does not have  a personal trainer and pay big bucks to make them feel like  they are doing the right things. Look at the influx of foreign players. They don’t pay out all that money. They are simply out working our kids. Working more and working harder. Every expert out there has an opinion that they will be glad to charge you for, but most are unproven. The only proven method is to out work your competition and hope your genetics cooperate. Everyone thinks they have to have a personal strength coach, batting coach, pitching coach, and nutritionist. I call bs. 

Amen, brother

wareagle posted:

Ok. I’m probably about to get bashed but oh well. To many people on here that think they know more than the high school coaches. I doubt that many high school coaches do anything that would hurt kids. Yes there are exceptions but it’s not the rule as you guys make it appear. Everyone does not have  a personal trainer and pay big bucks to make them feel like  they are doing the right things. Look at the influx of foreign players. They don’t pay out all that money. They are simply out working our kids. Working more and working harder. Every expert out there has an opinion that they will be glad to charge you for, but most are unproven. The only proven method is to out work your competition and hope your genetics cooperate. Everyone thinks they have to have a personal strength coach, batting coach, pitching coach, and nutritionist. I call bs. 

The imagery of island locals knocking coconuts off of trees with rocks as part of their throwing program or making cardboard mitts  to play in craggy fields is no longer true.  In the carribean, elite players go to sponsored academies and train like there is no tomorrow like soccer and tennis academies. Of course anyone with elite athletic genetics can still succeed without personal and/or customized training, however having those resources greatly improves the chance of success, no different than taking a prep class for college entrance exams.

wareagle posted:

To many people on here that think they know more than the high school coaches. I doubt that many high school coaches do anything that would hurt kids. Yes there are exceptions but it’s not the rule as you guys make it appear.

Coming from a high school coach, I want to thank you for sticking up for high school coaches! 

Many many many high school coaches are life-long learners that apply new age technologies, techniques, and philosophies to their coaching. However, there are many who do not, and I fear people who generalize by acting like they know more than the high school coaches may have had an experience with a coach who was not a life-long learner. For that, I am sad. Sad that their kid did not get the opportunity to play for someone who was truly devoted to their players and the game. 

Strength programs at high schools are difficult and should be programmed with intent and detail. From my experience, it is wise to separate freshmen from the rest and use that first offseason to build the technical foundation for what is to come in the next 3 years (your serious freshmen will most likely be training with a local facility already, so you won't be missing out on development opportunity by making this a technique-centric program). With the sophomores-seniors you have to identify who is training outside of the school program and with who. It is a good idea to connect with those local trainers/facilities so that you can monitor workload and bridge your terminologies. All coaches should be somewhat familiar with the work of Eric Cressey and Kyle Boddy as it relates to training pitchers, stay within their recommendations and you can't go wrong. If you have the time to put kids through 3-day/week throwing programs like DriveLine, you should be using something like motusTHROW to monitor UCL stress. Otherwise, recommend them to a local facility that does. 

Comments on the OP:
All athletes should be lifting their freshmen year. They should be lifting as heavy as their technique will allow. If at any point their technique fails, the weight should go down.

*This post is my opinion. It is simply what I believe to be true. 

Also ironic that so many are concerned about risks of training when appropriate training, including the use of heavy weight (with proper technique), has been proven to reduce injury. My son spent a majority of his time working out with football team until his senior year. I have no doubts that he avoided at least a couple of serious injuries due to his dedication to the weightroom.

Learner posted:

wareagle posted:

To many people on here that think they know more than the high school coaches. I doubt that many high school coaches do anything that would hurt kids. Yes there are exceptions but it’s not the rule as you guys make it appear.

Coming from a high school coach, I want to thank you for sticking up for high school coaches! 

Many many many high school coaches are life-long learners that apply new age technologies, techniques, and philosophies to their coaching. However, there are many who do not, and I fear people who generalize by acting like they know more than the high school coaches may have had an experience with a coach who was not a life-long learner. For that, I am sad. Sad that their kid did not get the opportunity to play for someone who was truly devoted to their players and the game. 

Strength programs at high schools are difficult and should be programmed with intent and detail. From my experience, it is wise to separate freshmen from the rest and use that first offseason to build the technical foundation for what is to come in the next 3 years (your serious freshmen will most likely be training with a local facility already, so you won't be missing out on development opportunity by making this a technique-centric program). With the sophomores-seniors you have to identify who is training outside of the school program and with who. It is a good idea to connect with those local trainers/facilities so that you can monitor workload and bridge your terminologies. All coaches should be somewhat familiar with the work of Eric Cressey and Kyle Boddy as it relates to training pitchers, stay within their recommendations and you can't go wrong. If you have the time to put kids through 3-day/week throwing programs like DriveLine, you should be using something like motusTHROW to monitor UCL stress. Otherwise, recommend them to a local facility that does. 

Comments on the OP:
All athletes should be lifting their freshmen year. They should be lifting as heavy as their technique will allow. If at any point their technique fails, the weight should go down.

 

*This post is my opinion. It is simply what I believe to be true. 

Great post Learner!

Baseball training is evolving faster than most coaches can keep up with. You have to respect the HS coach who tries to stay abreast of these new techniques, as well as, those who understand that a player belonging to a facility that possesses and employs the latest training technology is really a blessing for not only the player but also, the HS team.

Why is it that people are so quick to believe the opinion of a private pitching coach instead of the high school coach?

Let me tell you about my experience with this and a conversation I had with a highly respected orthopedic surgeon just this past spring. I think the kid's dad would be just fine with me telling this story BTW.. We had a kid whose elbow hurt so dad wanted to see a "doctor who deals with baseball injuries." Sure, no problem. I got him set up with an appointment with "The Elbow Guy" at the Andrews Institute based here in Plano, TX. MRI showed some minor damage but not surgery-worthy. Doctor said that he needed to see a PT who deals with baseball injuries. Regular PT was going to focus on the elbow and the elbow only and he didn't need that. He was straight-up told that in order to get his elbow back to normal, he needed to put on muscle mass. I'm telling you... I was in the exam room with the son/dad and the doctor. Straight up, told him to get into the weight room. 15 year old kid had never stepped foot into the weight room because "my baseball coaches told me not to."

Every high school athlete needs to spend some serious time in the weight room. PERIOD.

Scott Munroe posted:

Learner posted:

wareagle posted:

To many people on here that think they know more than the high school coaches. I doubt that many high school coaches do anything that would hurt kids. Yes there are exceptions but it’s not the rule as you guys make it appear.

Coming from a high school coach, I want to thank you for sticking up for high school coaches! 

Many many many high school coaches are life-long learners that apply new age technologies, techniques, and philosophies to their coaching. However, there are many who do not, and I fear people who generalize by acting like they know more than the high school coaches may have had an experience with a coach who was not a life-long learner. For that, I am sad. Sad that their kid did not get the opportunity to play for someone who was truly devoted to their players and the game. 

Strength programs at high schools are difficult and should be programmed with intent and detail. From my experience, it is wise to separate freshmen from the rest and use that first offseason to build the technical foundation for what is to come in the next 3 years (your serious freshmen will most likely be training with a local facility already, so you won't be missing out on development opportunity by making this a technique-centric program). With the sophomores-seniors you have to identify who is training outside of the school program and with who. It is a good idea to connect with those local trainers/facilities so that you can monitor workload and bridge your terminologies. All coaches should be somewhat familiar with the work of Eric Cressey and Kyle Boddy as it relates to training pitchers, stay within their recommendations and you can't go wrong. If you have the time to put kids through 3-day/week throwing programs like DriveLine, you should be using something like motusTHROW to monitor UCL stress. Otherwise, recommend them to a local facility that does. 

Comments on the OP:
All athletes should be lifting their freshmen year. They should be lifting as heavy as their technique will allow. If at any point their technique fails, the weight should go down.

 

*This post is my opinion. It is simply what I believe to be true. 

Great post Learner!

Baseball training is evolving faster than most coaches can keep up with. You have to respect the HS coach who tries to stay abreast of these new techniques, as well as, those who understand that a player belonging to a facility that possesses and employs the latest training technology is really a blessing for not only the player but also, the HS team.

 

Amen. It took a few years for us to get all of our coaches on board with the idea that private training facilities who are doing it the right way are our greatest allies, not our enemies. But once we did, the culture flipped almost overnight.  The amount of trust we've developed with our players is due in large part to our willingness to work with private instructors, not against.