Has anyone had any success using weighted balls to increase velocity?
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Yes, as part of a more comprehensive program including functional & core strength, plyoball work, cardio conditioning, and work on mechanics. My son (age 15) has gained approx 8 mph since March. We attribute some of this to a throwing routine using 4-5-6 oz balls.
A couple of keys for you:
-- The research we have read says that you don't need to go any further than using 1 oz over and under the game weight ball (5 oz).
-- Whatever the routine you follow, always throw the light ball last. The research says that this produces the best results.
-- My son has found this to be helpful, without causing him to change his mechanics in any way.
We started using the routines in the book Fastball Fitness and then aapted them working with a local coach well versed in this. I would suggest you consider buying this book to learn more.
Good luck.
A couple of keys for you:
-- The research we have read says that you don't need to go any further than using 1 oz over and under the game weight ball (5 oz).
-- Whatever the routine you follow, always throw the light ball last. The research says that this produces the best results.
-- My son has found this to be helpful, without causing him to change his mechanics in any way.
We started using the routines in the book Fastball Fitness and then aapted them working with a local coach well versed in this. I would suggest you consider buying this book to learn more.
Good luck.
Hey coach there is tons of information out there on them. I have a PDF on a study if you want to PM me I will send it to you. Steve Ellis' site has some more links also, and I think Dr. Bagonzi' site has some material on them. You can also search through this site under weighted baseballs.
Here is some stuff:
http://www.baseballfit.com/weighted-baseball-training.htm
http://www.maxxtraining.com/article1.htm
I am going to do a program with my son this winter based on the chart below. I will be keeping very good records and will be checking his progress with my Stalker as a precursor of rolling the program out to our HS pitching staff.
http://www.webball.com/cms/page1299.cfm
From what I have read, you can expect a 2-5MPH gain depending on the individual.
Good Luck!
Here is some stuff:
http://www.baseballfit.com/weighted-baseball-training.htm
http://www.maxxtraining.com/article1.htm
I am going to do a program with my son this winter based on the chart below. I will be keeping very good records and will be checking his progress with my Stalker as a precursor of rolling the program out to our HS pitching staff.
http://www.webball.com/cms/page1299.cfm
From what I have read, you can expect a 2-5MPH gain depending on the individual.
Good Luck!
I am completely opposed to the use of weighted balls. I think it is an unnecessary risk to the pitcher in more ways than one. Here are two good reasons not to do it:
#1 A heavier ball may alter the arm slot sacrificing a consistent, repeatable delivery.
#2 The pitcher may adjust his mechanics and/or application of leverage to compensate for the additional (or lighter) weight. A good fastball is a kinetic chain and anything that impacts the fluidity of that chain is a risk not worth taking.
Bum, Jr. has never used weighted balls. He has gained velocity through hard work (using plyometrics, cardio, core and weight training) and by long-tossing.
I'm sure there are a ton of studies out there that "prove" weighted balls work. But as an MBA I can tell you I can prove ANYTHING with statistics, especially if I have an ulterior motive (want to sell you the training package or weighted balls).
Please! You just don't need to do this to succeed!
#1 A heavier ball may alter the arm slot sacrificing a consistent, repeatable delivery.
#2 The pitcher may adjust his mechanics and/or application of leverage to compensate for the additional (or lighter) weight. A good fastball is a kinetic chain and anything that impacts the fluidity of that chain is a risk not worth taking.
Bum, Jr. has never used weighted balls. He has gained velocity through hard work (using plyometrics, cardio, core and weight training) and by long-tossing.
I'm sure there are a ton of studies out there that "prove" weighted balls work. But as an MBA I can tell you I can prove ANYTHING with statistics, especially if I have an ulterior motive (want to sell you the training package or weighted balls).
Please! You just don't need to do this to succeed!
Please....don't plead. Let the people make an educated decision on their own.quote:Please! You just don't need to do this to succeed!
Don’t anyone be dissuaded. Weighted baseballs have their place in training. You need to actually use them correctly before you pass judgment. Nothing about training with under and over load baseballs is secret, and nothing about them needs to be statistically substantiated to support an agenda. They are what they are. If you’re smart enough to adjust your body to support the extra weight, you will find that they actually help create more efficient mechanics to preserve the joints in the upper body. If you’re not smart enough to figure it out, then you need some advice on how to do it. 5 oz is not a magical number. You can throw a football, a softball and on and on. When the upper body is taxed with a weight that is higher than what is expected and or used to, then the release point is altered. You want to teach someone to accelerate the ball for a longer period of time?…..throw a heavier object with the same dimensions as the baseball, and you will be compelled to hang on and accelerate for a longer period. If you don’t hang on, then you will release too early and end up always high in the zone. And if you’re able to throw effectively enough with an early release, then sub max throwing mechanics are being embedded in the throwers brain and body. Teaching to accelerate the ball for a longer period is the objective, which by the way produces higher velocities. One way to teach this is to implement the use of weighted baseballs. As for the under weight, you need to be aware that this is more stressful on the arm than the over weight simply because the arm is able accelerate to a much higher velocity in a shorter period of time due to a decrease in resistance. But, the arm is able to experience what is required to accelerate from 0mph to 95mph. Can your arm support this acceleration? You won’t know unless you train to get there. Under and over weights in a well planned out stress workout is a must if you decide to go this route as a training system…..just like you would do with free weights to gain strength and stability.
Bottom line, timing issues are scrutinized and higher accelerating forces are attained with the use of under and over weighted baseballs.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I am completely opposed to the use of weighted balls. I think it is an unnecessary risk to the pitcher in more ways than one. Here are two good reasons not to do it:
#1 A heavier ball may alter the arm slot sacrificing a consistent, repeatable delivery.
#2 The pitcher may adjust his mechanics and/or application of leverage to compensate for the additional (or lighter) weight. A good fastball is a kinetic chain and anything that impacts the fluidity of that chain is a risk not worth taking.
This is why you stay within 20% of regulation weight (meaning 4oz/5oz/6oz balls).
quote:Bum, Jr. has never used weighted balls. He has gained velocity through hard work (using plyometrics, cardio, core and weight training) and by long-tossing.
I'm sure there are a ton of studies out there that "prove" weighted balls work. But as an MBA I can tell you I can prove ANYTHING with statistics, especially if I have an ulterior motive (want to sell you the training package or weighted balls).
Please! You just don't need to do this to succeed!
I will agree that weighted balls aren't the first thing one should turn to for increasing velocity but rather a final optimization once the more fundamental contributors to velocity have been exhausted.
quote:Originally posted by cap_n:Please....don't plead. Let the people make an educated decision on their own.quote:Please! You just don't need to do this to succeed!
Don’t anyone be dissuaded. Weighted baseballs have their place in training. You need to actually use them correctly before you pass judgment. Nothing about training with under and over load baseballs is secret, and nothing about them needs to be statistically substantiated to support an agenda. They are what they are. If you’re smart enough to adjust your body to support the extra weight, you will find that they actually help create more efficient mechanics to preserve the joints in the upper body. If you’re not smart enough to figure it out, then you need some advice on how to do it. 5 oz is not a magical number. You can throw a football, a softball and on and on. When the upper body is taxed with a weight that is higher than what is expected and or used to, then the release point is altered. You want to teach someone to accelerate the ball for a longer period of time?…..throw a heavier object with the same dimensions as the baseball, and you will be compelled to hang on and accelerate for a longer period. If you don’t hang on, then you will release too early and end up always high in the zone. And if you’re able to throw effectively enough with an early release, then sub max throwing mechanics are being embedded in the throwers brain and body. Teaching to accelerate the ball for a longer period is the objective, which by the way produces higher velocities. One way to teach this is to implement the use of weighted baseballs. As for the under weight, you need to be aware that this is more stressful on the arm than the over weight simply because the arm is able accelerate to a much higher velocity in a shorter period of time due to a decrease in resistance. But, the arm is able to experience what is required to accelerate from 0mph to 95mph. Can your arm support this acceleration? You won’t know unless you train to get there. Under and over weights in a well planned out stress workout is a must if you decide to go this route as a training system…..just like you would do with free weights to gain strength and stability.
Bottom line, timing issues are scrutinized and higher accelerating forces are attained with the use of under and over weighted baseballs.
I'd only add that deceleration forces are also increased so you back side needs to be able to support that deceleration as well.
Wow, cap_n, I'm trying to find which of your statements is most condenscending. Let's start with statement #1:
"Please....don't plead. Let the people make an educated decision on their own."
Who said they shouldn't?
Statement #2:
"If you’re smart enough to adjust your body to support the extra weight"..
Statement #3:
"If you’re not smart enough to figure it out.."
***
You know what cap_n, you and Roger Tomas are dishing out pure B.S. that IMHO will injure kids' arms. You're the same clown who discouraged LONG-TOSS in a previous post.
Parents of pitchers, don't buy into this hocus-pocus. And if I plead it is for the kids you forsake.
Get lost.
"Please....don't plead. Let the people make an educated decision on their own."
Who said they shouldn't?
Statement #2:
"If you’re smart enough to adjust your body to support the extra weight"..
Statement #3:
"If you’re not smart enough to figure it out.."
***
You know what cap_n, you and Roger Tomas are dishing out pure B.S. that IMHO will injure kids' arms. You're the same clown who discouraged LONG-TOSS in a previous post.
Parents of pitchers, don't buy into this hocus-pocus. And if I plead it is for the kids you forsake.
Get lost.
Geez...
I do think weighted balls are a useful "tool" to help increase velocity. Just like long toss. They can also be useful to correct mechanical problems (such as arm action and timing issues). Just like long toss.
But you need to know how to use them and be smart about training with them.
Here’s an example:
After taking a month and a half off of throwing last fall, my son began his off season throwing/training program. Understand during this time of was active rest and he was still weight training, and doing regular exercising to stay in shape.
3 months prior to his HS season he starts incorporating his throwing program into his training. After a good "warm up period" of a few weeks he is gradually ramping up the use of weighted balls.
Being smart about his progress with this training (making sure to keep his arm care at the forefront of his throwing work), and using feedback (radar gun and video) he is steadily gaining arm strength, and becoming more mechanically efficient.
By the end of his training (and the start of his HS season) he is touching 94mph and his arm never felt better. He gained 7mph in less than a year and went on to have a dominating year (both spring and summer ball).
So I think that weighted balls had some impact on his velocity. Also his training and arm care made it possible to support that arm speed. This is key.
It is important to continue to maintain your arm and be smart about how many innings you pitch just like any other pitcher should watch for.
Many people don’t like the use of weighted balls, but just like anything else, if you don’t use something correctly it could be potentially dangerous.
My .02
I do think weighted balls are a useful "tool" to help increase velocity. Just like long toss. They can also be useful to correct mechanical problems (such as arm action and timing issues). Just like long toss.
But you need to know how to use them and be smart about training with them.
Here’s an example:
After taking a month and a half off of throwing last fall, my son began his off season throwing/training program. Understand during this time of was active rest and he was still weight training, and doing regular exercising to stay in shape.
3 months prior to his HS season he starts incorporating his throwing program into his training. After a good "warm up period" of a few weeks he is gradually ramping up the use of weighted balls.
Being smart about his progress with this training (making sure to keep his arm care at the forefront of his throwing work), and using feedback (radar gun and video) he is steadily gaining arm strength, and becoming more mechanically efficient.
By the end of his training (and the start of his HS season) he is touching 94mph and his arm never felt better. He gained 7mph in less than a year and went on to have a dominating year (both spring and summer ball).
So I think that weighted balls had some impact on his velocity. Also his training and arm care made it possible to support that arm speed. This is key.
It is important to continue to maintain your arm and be smart about how many innings you pitch just like any other pitcher should watch for.
Many people don’t like the use of weighted balls, but just like anything else, if you don’t use something correctly it could be potentially dangerous.
My .02
Who're you calling clown? That would be "mister clown."quote:You know what cap_n, you and Roger Tomas are dishing out pure B.S. that IMHO will injure kids' arms. You're the same clown who discouraged LONG-TOSS in a previous post.
Whoa...........all I'm saying is that an over and under weighted baseball throwing routine is not a bad thing and if utilized correctly, the routine can be very beneficial. In order to realize the benefits, you actually have to employ a program, even if it's one you make up. No condescension was aimed at you....I was very surprised you read it that way....then again, I don't know you.
I made my own weighted baseball long before I heard of the ones you can buy. I had not read about programs utilizing them either. Once I started throwing the weighted baseball, I realized it was a mistake and I put the thing away...............until a few years later and several thousand throws later, we picked up the use of a weighted baseball throwing training system. The system made me realize I didn't know how to throw efficiently. It was then that I found the valuable benefits of the over and under weight training with weighted baseballs. Training correctly will increase upper torso strength as well as fine tune throwing mechanics...... if one's brain has the capability to figure out how to preserve the body to prevent injury. In other words, if you don't know that a late hand through the zone is how you throw, then yes, you will hurt your arm.....until you fix your arm action timing.
Since you appear to be unaware of the benefits, stating that this training will injure arms is, as you put it, pure B.S.
I knew this was going to get things going when I saw this post yesterday.
BUM: I have tremendous respect for how you worked with your son and I am essentially following in your footsteps with my boy. That said I have done a lot of reading on the subject and from what I have gathered over/under weighted balls can help in developing additional velocity if properly managed as one component of a training program. You cannot do them with out the core, weight training, long toss, etc and expect success. You can also not haphazardly go out and use them and there are specific programs you should follow. You can get confirmation on this if you do some research on the material from Dr. Bagonzi, ASMI, Steve Ellis, Coop DeRenee and others.
Over/under training is now a standard tool in speed training for sprinters as well as other sports where speed and power are required so it makes perfect sense that they would work in baseball. There are programs for both throwing a batting that are accepted by those who have done significant research into the training methods.
You are also correct that you can succeed without them.
I am starting next week with my son on a program and I am going to personally work with him to insure that we are doing it properly. I am also not sure how much more we will gain with them vs just doing long toss since just doing long toss and working out during the same period would have some impact. I have a Stalker and I am going to baseline him this week prior to getting started and will track it bi-weekly. Admittedly there are too many variables to say that by doing this we gained X MPH on a sample size of 1, but the studies done with control groups say you can expect a 2-5MPH gain over a control group. I will keep you informed on our progress.
BUM: I have tremendous respect for how you worked with your son and I am essentially following in your footsteps with my boy. That said I have done a lot of reading on the subject and from what I have gathered over/under weighted balls can help in developing additional velocity if properly managed as one component of a training program. You cannot do them with out the core, weight training, long toss, etc and expect success. You can also not haphazardly go out and use them and there are specific programs you should follow. You can get confirmation on this if you do some research on the material from Dr. Bagonzi, ASMI, Steve Ellis, Coop DeRenee and others.
Over/under training is now a standard tool in speed training for sprinters as well as other sports where speed and power are required so it makes perfect sense that they would work in baseball. There are programs for both throwing a batting that are accepted by those who have done significant research into the training methods.
You are also correct that you can succeed without them.
I am starting next week with my son on a program and I am going to personally work with him to insure that we are doing it properly. I am also not sure how much more we will gain with them vs just doing long toss since just doing long toss and working out during the same period would have some impact. I have a Stalker and I am going to baseline him this week prior to getting started and will track it bi-weekly. Admittedly there are too many variables to say that by doing this we gained X MPH on a sample size of 1, but the studies done with control groups say you can expect a 2-5MPH gain over a control group. I will keep you informed on our progress.
Bum,
The NPA has studied the use of weighted balls not only from a results perspective but also from a mechanical perspective using high speed video. They have verified what you said about a heavier ball altering the arm slot (or release point). But they also concluded that staying within 20% of regulation weight alters the arm path by an insignificant amount and, therefore, is not an issue.
Note also that I said the use of weighted balls should be used after optimizing everything else first. The implications of this are that, since most young kids are NOT optimal, the use of weighted balls by young kids is not really appropriate. This is, of course, my opinion.
I don't think our opinions are as different as you think. Mine are certainly not BS as you say.
As for cap-n's post, I believe the main point was that the body adjusts the length of the "lever" (i.e. the arm path) to protect itself as dictated by the weight of the throwing implement. I agree with that. I also agree with his point that underweight balls put more stress on the arm than do overweight balls which is contrary to what most people seem to think.
The NPA has studied the use of weighted balls not only from a results perspective but also from a mechanical perspective using high speed video. They have verified what you said about a heavier ball altering the arm slot (or release point). But they also concluded that staying within 20% of regulation weight alters the arm path by an insignificant amount and, therefore, is not an issue.
Note also that I said the use of weighted balls should be used after optimizing everything else first. The implications of this are that, since most young kids are NOT optimal, the use of weighted balls by young kids is not really appropriate. This is, of course, my opinion.
I don't think our opinions are as different as you think. Mine are certainly not BS as you say.
As for cap-n's post, I believe the main point was that the body adjusts the length of the "lever" (i.e. the arm path) to protect itself as dictated by the weight of the throwing implement. I agree with that. I also agree with his point that underweight balls put more stress on the arm than do overweight balls which is contrary to what most people seem to think.
BOF.. your post is an example of respectful disagreement. Roger Tomas.. sorry.. I really like your posts and appreciate all of your input, despite what I said earlier. Thanks.
However.. I think you are making a mistake in using weighted balls. Bum, Jr. gained nearly 10 MPH in just over a year without them.
The key to a good fastball is a combination of good mechanics, arm speed, and efficient utilization of the kinetic chain (related to mechanics but also incorporating timing). BOF, the very best pitchers look like they're low-80's and actually hitting 90 (defining an explosive fastball).
A fluid delivery, optimizing the kinetic chain, creates a "bullwhip" effect. If an untrained person picked up a bullwhip, he would simply flail and flail and accomplish nothing, but one properly trained with the whip can easily saw a pumpkin in half with an easy wrist snap. It is all timing.
Does the bullwhip artist use weighted whips?
The most critical component of the kinetic chain, then, is timing, and vascilating between varying degrees of weighted balls serves nothing but to disrupt that timing for a pitcher. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
This is the last I have to say on this subject. But I stand firm in my vigorous opposition to the use of weighted balls.
However.. I think you are making a mistake in using weighted balls. Bum, Jr. gained nearly 10 MPH in just over a year without them.
The key to a good fastball is a combination of good mechanics, arm speed, and efficient utilization of the kinetic chain (related to mechanics but also incorporating timing). BOF, the very best pitchers look like they're low-80's and actually hitting 90 (defining an explosive fastball).
A fluid delivery, optimizing the kinetic chain, creates a "bullwhip" effect. If an untrained person picked up a bullwhip, he would simply flail and flail and accomplish nothing, but one properly trained with the whip can easily saw a pumpkin in half with an easy wrist snap. It is all timing.
Does the bullwhip artist use weighted whips?
The most critical component of the kinetic chain, then, is timing, and vascilating between varying degrees of weighted balls serves nothing but to disrupt that timing for a pitcher. Pretty dumb if you ask me.
This is the last I have to say on this subject. But I stand firm in my vigorous opposition to the use of weighted balls.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
The key to a good fastball is a combination of good mechanics, arm speed, and efficient utilization of the kinetic chain (related to mechanics but also incorporating timing). BOF, the very best pitchers look like they're low-80's and actually hitting 90 (defining an explosive fastball).
A fluid delivery, optimizing the kinetic chain, creates a "bullwhip" effect.
I agree with you BUM:
We faced a kid last year throwing 91 and you would have never known it except that my gun was reading 89-91……..plus all the kids walking back to the dug out.
However with the fluidity you must also poses the necessary strength and power. You get this through various training methods. This is just another training technique. We are also talking about a few oz. either side of the standard 5 oz weight.
BTW if “bullwhippers” were getting scholarships and multi-million dollar contracts for being the best bullwhipper they might develop better bullwhip training techniques…say that fast three times
Billy Bullwhip signs $3.57M contract and bullwhips the Seattle Bullwhippers to the American League Bullwhipping championships
I just can't help it.....
coachbyrd- the notion that weighted baseballs as a training tool is a waste of time and dangerous is pure BULLWHIP!
coachbyrd- the notion that weighted baseballs as a training tool is a waste of time and dangerous is pure BULLWHIP!
Cute, cap_n. But that's not a pile of bullwhips you're standing in.
Bum,
I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of good timing.
I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of good timing.
i don't think anyone can discount weighted balls in there training routine.that said they need to be used correctly.
most kids of my time threw weighted balls everyday. they were water logged and taped up.but wieghted non the less.
we threw everyday rocks, ball's, whatever.
Dr bagonzi has done some great research with kinetics,weighted balls, long toss, etc. worth a read.
most kids of my time threw weighted balls everyday. they were water logged and taped up.but wieghted non the less.
we threw everyday rocks, ball's, whatever.
Dr bagonzi has done some great research with kinetics,weighted balls, long toss, etc. worth a read.
I was wondering when the most common form of overweight "training" was going to surface....thanks!quote:most kids of my time through weighted balls everyday. they were water logged and taped up.but wieghted non the less.
