Well then what's a coach to do?

Each has their own purpose. None is an exclusive answer. A well designed program will include drills, tee work, cage work, short toss, live pitching, etc. With each station designed to accomplish the appropriate purpose.

But then you knew that, CB...

Do what works for you and don't worry about what others say or do---Are you successful with what you do---that is all that matters

Right on TR. If this stuff doesn't work, then why are the pro's still doing it. Oh thats right, don't follow what those pro's are doing, they don't know what they're doing anyway.

Coach Ric

Did you get my PM?

So far, IMHO, CoachB25's concerns have been addressed but not answered. This might become a very valuable discussion if everyone would be more specific about what Texan described as the "appropriate purpose" for each station or piece of equipment.

Obviously, live pitching from a pitcher's mound to a batter is the best "practice" for game situation hitting. But that is not always possible. So, in the absence of that situation, what drills should a coach use to teach what things to his hitters? What equipment [tee, cage with machine, cage with live arm, 30 feet 3", cage with live arm 45", soft toss with partner, soft toss with machine, outside with baseballs, inside with whiffle balls, nerf balls, poly balls, and on and on] combined with what drills will provide the most benefit to a young hitter with what kinds of problems?

Those of us who work with hitters and are trying to do the best we can are interested in your comments.

TW344

TW344, thanks for understanding my intent. I believe some fellow posters are quick to be critical but slow to suggest a "better way." I was trying to pick the minds of those posters and find that "better way." I'm not the brightest bulb in the package. If you can help me do my job better then my players benefit. That's what I'm about. I think you're the same!

I thinks drill work is invaluable if done properly. I can't understand why some think it is a waste of time. We would never expect a fielder to just go out and play and do fine. We work on back-hands, gloveside, slow rollers, bouncers, double plays, etc,etc. Why would we not do the same with hitting. Each drill should have a focus and should help the hitter to combine skills to make a complete swing. I have not found standing at the plate and just hacking away to be of much benefit. My vote, drill away and use regular batting practice as a way to put into practice the skills that you develop and reinforce during drill time. Either one without the other is not the best, combine the two and you step in the right direction IMO.

The use of drills in teaching hitting is a controversial topic, for sure....

Here is the problem with MOST drills, in one word, IMO....Retention....Drills are a short-term memory tool.....There is much research done in the way of studies on this subject and it's well-documented......

Teaching in hitting is attempting to permanently change body movement....Retention is critical in this teaching process.....

Coach Butler

I try to have a team hitting plan. Within the plan will be some drills and converstations one on one that work toward the big picture.

I want to eliminate the bad swing mechanics with a simple approach to teaching.

The plan is to hit the ball hard with a flat trajectory. The plan is to have decent plate coverage and hit the away pitch to oppo field.

The plan is to have a low ball bias and lay off the FB up. We need to swing at pitches one ball outside of middle and down. We need to sit on that pitch early and not wait on the perfect pitch against good pitchers....it isn't coming.

If I can just accomplish this then hitting should not be our downfall and I can blame any failure on the pitching coach

Trying to build muscle memory with instant feedback repetitions is not the best teaching tool, IMO....Hitting stations and drills at practice is an example I would use to back up my statement.....If they worked, then why would players perform the same drills and use the hitting stations at every practice, every year?

We didn't learn how to walk with the use of stations or drills....

BlueDog,
I completely agree with you that retention is key to feeling the proper swing. That is why PROPER drills that reflect a swing that will be used in a game is essential. So much depends on the type of drill used. If you have a station set up to work at hitting the inside pitch and another to hit the outside pitch, then you are using two good drill stations. Players should understand the adjustments needed in the two swings and then practice. Finishing with some live throwing to put these into game situations is also critical. Research has shown that the key to learning a new skill involves repetition. That repetition over time causes actual physical changes in the brain. Therefore, drills are necessary, but be careful because if they do it wrong over and over then the brain is adapting to a new and incorrect way of doing something.

quote:

Research has shown that the key to learning a new skill involves repetition. That repetition over time causes actual physical changes in the brain.

Not really, Coach....The key to learning retention is understanding, not the repetitions......Repetitions do nothing to the brain....The understanding process does, though.......Repetitions and muscle memory are for the most part, myths.....

quote:

If you have a station set up to work at hitting the inside pitch and another to hit the outside pitch, then you are using two good drill stations. Players should understand the adjustments needed in the two swings and then practice.

Coach, in your opinion, what are the adjustments needed in the two swings you describe?

BlueDog,
"How the Brain Learns" David A. Sousa. A clinical expert in brain research would disagree with you.

BD, you made some good comments on retention, but as for walking, yes we did learn by repitition, we kept doing it over and over until a wobble became walk. Drills done properly, with some one checking the hitter to see that practice will become performance is equally important. Not all drills work for all hitters in all situations, but its a coaches job to see who needs what, and when. There are several drills that have been described here, but a coach uses what he feels works for his hitters, and sometimes that means different drills for different hitters.
CoachB25, I like this one a lot. It teaches a hitter to catch the ball with the bat. Seems kids can all catch a ball going 85, but they can't put the bat where its thrown.
Have the batter in his stance and a thrower underhand a soft toss towards his front hip. The batter goes into his swing and catches the ball with his top hand and stops where he catches it. He should have his hips open and shoulders and top hand moving to the ball and then catching the ball. His head and spine should be over the ball with his eyes directly on it.
This does not correct a bad swing, it merely teaches the hitter to see the ball all the way to the bat, and I've seen it taught, used it, and have seen it help hitters.

quote:

BD, you made some good comments on retention, but as for walking, yes we did learn by repitition, we kept doing it over and over until a wobble became walk.

No drills involved to repeat...So, no repetition involved....We learned to walk by doing it wrong until we got it right....That's not what drills teach....In fact, it's just the opposite...

quote:

Not really, Coach....the key to learning retention is understanding, not the repetitions......Repetitions do nothing to the brain....The understanding process does, though.......Repetitions and muscle memory are for the most part, myths.....

Sorry BlueDog but I found something else I don't agree with on what you say. I know I dropped the subject in the hitting forum but I can't let this one go.

So lets say you have a kid who has been on the team for 3 years and is now a senior. he starts the preseason with a bad habit of "stepping in the bucket" (front foot moves away from straight line and goes toward 3B if RH hitter).

First - if understanding is what teaches players then how do you explain that this kid developed that habit? If he understands that stepping in the bucket is bad then why does he do it?

Second - when you see that flaw and you tell him - why is it on the next pitch he does it (although he may not do it as bad or he had to really think about not doing it) OR if he does correct it then 2 or 3 pitches later he goes back to stepping in the bucket?

Third - so when you are watching an infant learn to walk you see the parents holding the child by the arms with their feet touching the ground so he can move his legs in a walking manner is not a drill? What about when a child is learning to talk - the parents take the child and make them watch their mouth so they can start to mimic the mouth movements and learn to talk?

Those are not things you understand - those are things a child does over and over until they master it. Everytime they do it they find something that does not work and try to eliminate or perfect something. That is what drills do - they perfect things by focusing on something specific so you can put the whole thing together during the game.

Coach, did your drills teach this senior not to step out?.....If you think they did, did he remember not to do it?...

The fact is, unfortunately, performing your drills for three years did not teach this kid efficient body movement when swinging a bat......

quote:

Second - when you see that flaw and you tell him - why is it on the next pitch he does it (although he may not do it as bad or he had to really think about not doing it) OR if he does correct it then 2 or 3 pitches later he goes back to stepping in the bucket?

Coach, anything a hitter has to think about is something he hasn't learned.....

quote:

That is what drills do - they perfect things by focusing on something specific so you can put the whole thing together during the game.

The goal should not be to put the whole thing together during the game, Coach.....Drills are for the short-term.....Each week, you do drills so you remember what to do in the next game......

The goal should be for the player to learn and retain what he learns so he doesn't step in the bucket next year.....

BlueDog,
An honest question here. Just trying to pick your brain a little. It is raining, you have 1.5 hours in a gym with one batting cage. What would you do that day to improve your hitters? You have 20 of them. Also, if repetition is not important, is there a need to practice hitting at all. Shouldn't we be able to talk about it, understand what to do, and then just go do it in a game?

Coach, I don't need the cage.....

I would show them what proper posture to hit different pitch locations looks like....Then, with the use of a tee, I would let them fumble around until they could, hopefully, duplicate to some degree what I showed them....... And, I would explain how vision should function in the swing process....Because, chances are real good, they wouldn't know....

quote:

Also, if repetition is not important, is there a need to practice hitting at all.

Coach, let's understand what Coaches mean by repetition.....It's doing something the same way over and over to supposedly teach muscle memory to automatically perform the routine at some point later on.....

Repetition is not the only way to practice swinging a bat......

quote:

The key to learning retention is understanding, not the repetitions...... Repetitions do nothing to the brain....The understanding process does, though....... Repetitions and muscle memory are for the most part, myths.....

Dog, there is more to it than just understanding...repetition does have some affect on the brain otherwise how does one develop and explain bad/good habits as well as improvement. The longer they have been doing something wrong the harder and longer it takes to correct. Conversely, the longer someone has being practing something "the right way" the easier and better they become.

For instance, I've heard stories of MLB pitchers that went thru mechanical adjustments and yet even many years later throwing with new mechanics they said they would still revert to "old habits" at least a handful of pitches a game. Why, because they were throwing like that for years...

Repetition is practice...Unfortunately too many times kids are doing drills, working in cages whatever unsupervised and without proper direction. This is where the damage is done. With hands-on proper instruction these kids would see the benefits of repetition. JMHO

quote:

With hands-on proper instruction these kids would see the benefits of repetition.

What seperates MLB hitters from the rest?.....How did they get to be the best?..Do you think it's because they got hands-on proper instruction?

quote:

Why, because they were throwing like that for years...

If this is the reason why, do you not think they would revert to "old habits" more than a handful of pitches a game?...Even the greatest pitchers throw mechanically unsound pitches every game.....Just as the greatest hitters swing like buffoons, sometimes.....It's a human thing...

Somehow, MLB hitters rose above all this block training and figured it out.....

There have been many great College hitters who couldn't do it.....Even though they very much wanted to.....And, it wasn't for lack of repetitive swinging practice.....

quote:

with the use of a tee, I would let them fumble around until they could, hopefully, duplicate to some degree what I showed them

BlueDog, it sounds to me like this might be your version of a drill!

Changing body movement patterns has more to do with age than how long someone has been doing something....

The older we get, the harder it is for us to learn.....

quote:

BlueDog, it sounds to me like this might be your version of a drill!

It's my version of learning.....Where this differs from a drill is that they only have to do it close to efficient one time......Then, they can stop.....No repetitions to build what you call muscle memory....

I agree that muscle memory is a poor term. I don't use that term. Where I feel drills can help is in the area of establishing a proper swing and reacting to pitches. Science has shown that muscle memory is not what occurs. What actually is occuring through repetition is that new neural pathways are developed within the brain. These help the body to react in a manner established through patterns. These pathways are developed about 6 hours after an activity is completed. Reinforcement after that 6 hour time, improves that pathway. An example of what I would like to happen is that my players practice seeing (vision is very important as you pointed out) an inside pitch and make the necessary swing. Through repetition the brain then creates a pathway that when the player sees this pitch the brain will control the actions of the body to replicate that swing. This goes to the area where you talk about letting the brain work for the hitter. This can only take place if the brain has deveoped a strong pathway in which to affect the body.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! I leave the website for 37 hours and all kinds of great stuff are going on. Great discussion guys. If someone can't learn from this, they just don't want to learn.

THANKS to everyone and keep it going.

TW344

Muscle Memory? I use that phrase all of the time. I throw hundreds of pitches each night in batting practice. In our summer camp, I put on a throwing demonstration where I turn away from another coach who has a glove on and then spin and throw. I have them place their glove where ever they want and I tell the kids that if they practice with a purpose, they can achieve anything. I might have missed that glove by 8 inches once in 20 years. Is this because I'm a superior athlete? Just_Learning will crack up at the thought. No, I believe it is because I throw to locations so much curing BP that I have developed that muscle memory. We want the same with hitting and so, that is why it has to be monitored so closely. BTW, and since we are on the topic of repetitions, I was onced asked if I would feel embarassed if I missed that target/glove. My response was that I've never thought about missing it. Of course I believe, "Repetition is no fun but it's the reason we have won." JMHO!

quote:

What seperates MLB hitters from the rest?.....How did they get to be the best?..Do you think it's because they got hands-on proper instruction?

Swing movement efficiency is what separates the best from the rest...How they got to be the best is by trial and error as well as practicing those movements over time...

quote:

If this is the reason why, do you not think they would revert to "old habits" more than a handful of pitches a game?...Even the greatest pitchers throw mechanically unsound pitches every game.....Just as the greatest hitters swing like buffoons, sometimes.....It's a human thing...

They would revert to their "old habits", not necessarily mechanically unsound...Why, because their previous mechanics were so deeply rooted in them over time that they still had tendencies to throw the old way.

Can't compare pitchers to hitters in this sense as pitchers are in total control of their movements and such are not influenced by outside forces i.e. timing issues...hitters on the other hand are trying to hit a moving ball being thrown by a pitcher who's objective it is to upset their timing...thus hitters will look foolish mechanically at times.

NYdad, what I'm trying to get you to understand is this.....Hitters must figure it out, first.....Then, and only then, IMO, they can move on to better swing efficiency levels....

They've got to remove the thinking process.....Now, you're on the right track with your trial-and-error comment....

quote:

They would revert to their "old habits", not necessarily mechanically unsound...

If they weren't mechanically unsound, then, why did he make the attempt to change 'em?.....

quote:

There have been many great College hitters who couldn't do it.....Even though they very much wanted to.....And, it wasn't for lack of repetitive swinging practice.....

You think maybe it's because their swings didn't translate to wood at the major league level along with the other 95 pct of amateur hitters...Most difficult to effectively change someones mechanics at such late stage after all those years of repetition. JMHO

quote:

If they weren't mechanically unsound, then, why did he make the attempt to change 'em?.....

Dog, I don't have to tell you that mechanics are very subjective...you can take a kid to 10 pitching coaches and he'd get 10 different theories..