What advice would you give to your son

I'll turn it around and say this.

Anytime as a coach that a player of mine has received a "better" opportunity to play...maybe for a super-elite team or a team that fits his style better or a team with more of his friends on it...regardless of prior commitments I have done everything I could to encourage him, make him feel good about moving on and/or helped him make the jump.

Youth/summer-HS/travel baseball is NOT about me winning games (although I like to win VERY much!)...its about helping players develop and move on to better opportunities if they arise.

I would (and have) done the same for my own sons.

The only thing I would say is had he Already made the Commitment to the earlier team.
That's when it get's sticky.
I believe in following through with your Commitment's.
Now if you can play for both without to much of a hassle??

IMO - The kid gave his word to play for that coach. He should fulfill his committment.

If the kid goes through life backing out of prior committments every time a seemingly better offer comes up - he will ultimately wind up in the trash heap.

IMO.

I like Justbaseball’s answer because that is the way I would handle it. I would not get upset with a coach if a coach started another player over my son and by the same token I would not expect a coach to be upset if my son selected another team over his team. Sure you consider all things but a verbal agreement to play next spring would not be overwhelming to the point that I would pass on what appears to be a great opportunity for my son. Of course this is coming from a person (me) that fired my business partner’s wife and remained his partner and his friend for over 20 years. You do what you think is right and if there are problems because of what you did then so be it! This is not about emotion or honor or tribal mentality this is about opportunity for your son. I would be surprised if any coach worth his salt would not give his blessing to such a move. When opportunity knocks you better answer the door or you could end up in itsinthegame's trash heap.
Fungo

To commit to playing so far into the future, Is the sticky point I'm talking about.
If the season is going to start in a month and you already gave your Verbal Commitment.
Then you follow thru with that Commitment.

That far into the future, Than you might want to take a second look.
Alway's leave your option's open.
That's why I like this site.
Advice that you can choose to use, Are not use.

quote:

This is not about emotion or honor or tribal mentality this is about opportunity for your son.

I once had this very conversation about Honering Commitment's

Already signed up for a College Camp, and a Small Elite camp.
2 week's apart.
Then get an invite to a Top Notch Showcase World Series in the same time frame.
I told that person about Honering Committment's.
And he said basicly, Commitment's one thing, Opportunities another.
And I have to agree with You, Never let a Geniune Opportunity
pass you by.

But we Honored are Commitment.
Something's are more Important than Opportunity. EH

I know I am going to ruffle some feathers on this one...so be it.....for those coaches (and I was one of them), I am confident MANY of us play who is hot and sit who is not.

Some comments:
1) How many of you, make a "commitment" to your employer? If you were offered more money, better benefits, opportunity for advancement would you say "NO" I have made a commitment to my current employer? I would venture to say many of us would move to the better opportunity.
I wholeheartedly agree with justbaseball's comments.
2) Let's go back to TPM's scenario. She stated current coach was a good guy, taught little but relied on him a lot. What happens when the player in question stays with the current coach, but a "stud" player moves in and plays the same position? Do you (as a coach) play the guy who stuck with you...or the move in stud? I know they will be answers both ways......
3) While it doesn't always happen, what about the player who commits to a team, and then finds out about two months before summer season that the coach is not able to field a team, folds the team and now your son is high and dry? (this happened to us) What then?

Bottom line, most people want to do better for themselves. If you better yourself with a better opportunity, MOST coaches will wish you the best.

There is no commitment until practices have started. Then I believe the kid should stick with it til the end of the season. We all move on in life. By definition, life is not stagnant, it's ever-changing.

I believe a kid should play at the highest level he's physically and emotionally capable of playing (where he's actually enjoying the experience). And you know what? Playing time is not a factor in the decision. The player will get better just practicing with and being around these better players. Think about it. How many balls are actually hit to the kid in the course of the game? Two, maybe three? Practice is where men are made.

According to some answers, giving up a commitment might be ok if there is a better opportunity available.

So if a recruit commits to a coach and a better opportunity comes along, he should back out of his commitment?

That sounds fair if the coach can do the same.

What kind of coach would expect a kid to stay with him when he has a better opportunity in front of him? Isn't the job of a coach to try as hard as he can to help a kid? Sometimes this can mean letting him go. Any coach that is more concerned with who he has on his roster than what is best for the kids on the roster I have a problem with that. As for the player and what he should do I will just say this. Call up the coach and tell him about the opportunity. Tell him that you wanted to be up front and honest about the situation. Tell him you appreciate the opportunity that he gave you. Tell him you want to take advantage of this opportunity. If the coach gets upset and angry then you have found out all you need to know about this guy. He wants you for his sake not yours. If he tells you that he is excited for you and wishes you the best then you have had the opportunity to play for a great guy. Coaches do not own the rights to players. Hey what if your son stays with the old team and goes into a slump or starts getting hit hard eveytime he takes the hill? What if he puts him on the bench. Is that coach being disloyal by doing that? What if the old coach goes out and picks up some more players and your son ends up on the bench? Again is he being disloyal? Coaches have to care about what is best for the players first. Not what they want. Sometimes it is the same thing. And sometimes it is not. Thats life , thats baseball.

quote:

So if a recruit commits to a coach and a better opportunity comes along, he should back out of his commitment?

Happens all the time. Can you say "draft" and "transfer"?. Depends on how good the opportunity is! "Many who would not take the last cookie would take the last lifeboat."

Sorry, I didn't mean that.

Let me rephrase.

If a recruit verbals to a coach and in between that verbal and signing he gets a better opportunity and offer from another school it's ok to change mind?

Let me clarify my post. Im talking about a summer league coach or a select type team which I think the original poster was talking about. Im not talking about a verbal to a program etc. I do think that there is a big difference.

Of course that player was mine. When he got the phone call to come play for another team, he knew it would most likely be a better over all experience. He asked what he should do, we told him, you do what you feel is best. He felt that honoring his committment to the team and coach was more important. If he was older would we have told him to go with the better team and coach, most likely, but at that age we thought it was more of a life lesson than not being on the best team in a fall league for 3 months. By the way, we did pretty good that fall! When he was not pitching he was on the field or hitting. That wasn't ever an issue or a thought.
Maybe I am a bit old fashioned, but I have to go with what iitg posted, though I understand exactly what justbaseball and everyone else has said. And EH made a great point, always leave your options open at least until you HAVE to make a desision.
I don't understand the analogy between committing to a job and a 14 year old committing to a team. But I suppose to find a correlation, if you teach your kids when they are young and impressionable that committing means thinking things out carefully, choices are a bit easier later on and you never look back and wonder if you made teh wrong choice.

I think that mine has had a lot of success and opportunities because of his commitment and loyalty. By the way, the coach he said no to, he later played in HS (travel tournaments, showcases, fall ball and summers) for three years turned out to be one of the most helpful and influential coaches he has ever had.
So never be afraid of saying NO to a coach, before he becomes your coach, of course!

Good story TPM.

quote:

I don't understand the analogy between committing to a job and a 14 year old committing to a team.

One Manager of a elite team in No. Cali. Said to the Player's of his organization.
When your out there on the field, you are interviewing for a Job. Your looking for your best opportuinity if you have option's.
Now if I found a job that fit and was a better paying job.
Then that would be a choice I would have to make, And have made in the Past.
If I had made a commitment to my present employer, For a certain amount of time or project completion.
Then I would follow thru with my commitment.

I suggest you be up front with who you deal with.
Nothing personal just business.

I think that what would bother me, Is if the season had already started and then you found a better opportuinity.
Then you follow thru no matter what.
Commit to season's ( Spring, Summer, Fall )
Only 3 to 4 month commitment's. EH

I guess it depends on where you are in the metamorphous of the young innocent snotty nosed kid kicking dirt and playing rec ball just for the fun of it to the college player that may never get on the field to the professional ball player that may be cut or traded without warning. Only after you have run the gamut can you put it all in perspective. It goes from just having fun to a business. (I happen to think doing your job can be fun) This “baseball business” can start as early as pre-high school and first starts to rear its ugly head with things like pitcher over use or playing the best nine and putting the rest on the pine. I wouldn’t go as far to say this process is cutthroat but I also wouldn’t get so caught up in this honor issue that I got blindsided.

quote:

Nothing personal just business.

quote:

...but I also wouldn’t get so caught up in this honor issue that I got blindsided.

I think thats a pretty good summary of the way I feel about it too Fungo.

As a coach, I wouldn't feel very good about myself expecting a kid to stay on my team when he has a better opportunity. I might be kind of the opposite of a lot of coaches in my area...I try to stay in touch and remain friends with the super-elite programs...a lot of other coaches I know try to "protect" their players from those programs. But I hope that I can elevate players to their level...its one of my goals. I know my limitations and I know I cannot do for them what others can. I have recommended kids, I have turned kids over and I have encouraged them to go to super-elite teams in the middle of my season...including my own sons. Why? Because its right thing to do.

As a parent, I too want my kids to do the "right" thing...but I think the "right" thing involves explaining to their coach and teammates why a change is necessary in an open and honest way and then moving on, leaving new opportunities for someone else behind them. I expect the same from the rest of them and never get upset with anyone trying to climb the ladder. If I/we make a mistake, we understand the consequences.

I respectfully believe that one can never be "blindsided" by honor. Where I come from a person's name is as good as their word.
(TPM will recognize this team)... My son was asked to play for the Pokers, he repectfully declined because he had given his word to his coach that he'd play for Yellow Jackets. It most assuredly had a more elite status...ie a better opportunity...AND the college coach who recruited him wanted him to play for them. Bottom line...college coach realized son had integrity and loyalty along with other intangibles. If you are good enough, it does not matter who you play for or where you play.

Honor, true honor is untouchable. Nothing in life comes close to it and parenting today (in great percentages) has lost sight of that.
I make no judgements on all these individual postings, each person is accountable for their own actions. I am not saying anyone did "wrong", I am saying it is good to teach our kids to mean what they say, to know the value of trusting one's words.

quote:

...I am not saying anyone did "wrong", I am saying it is good to teach our kids to mean what they say, to know the value of trusting one's words.

Absolutely! But if my player has a better opportunity and explains to me (as his coach) why its a better opportunity...then the "right" thing for me to do is to help him move on.

Furthermore, if I know of a better opportunity for him (that he may not know about)...it is my responsibility to help him attain that opportunity...and I have. It wouldn't be "right" otherwise.

I expect the same principles of operation from any of my sons' coaches.

I will give you a very concrete example. In the summer of 2003, my son had committed to play for NorCal...first time ever for him with them. He played in one tournament and then was selected to the USA Jr. National Team which meant he could not play any more for NorCal for the rest of the summer...he was a top-line pitcher they had counted on very much. The head of NorCal (a poster on this board sometimes) did everything he could to make him feel good about "breaking his commitment." There were no hard or guilty feelings by anyone. That was the right thing to do by all.

The scenario was closely repeated the next summer too. Still, no problems from anyone.

So you might say, "well yeah, but thats the USA team!" I say, "ok, but the step 'up' is somewhat equivalent to other kids getting a step 'up' from a good travel team to a NorCal or the Pokers or EC." Why would anyone hold a kid back from that? I sure wouldn't and I suggest that anyone who would isn't placing your son's best interests as high as they should.

The burden to do the "right thing" does not fall wholly on the player's shoulders. It is a burden shared by both the player and the teams/coaches involved. Either one can be responsible for the "wrong" thing happening.

Just an opinion...nothing more.

This act of not honoring commitment can become a character trait and show up later in all fascets of life. Like marriage, jobs and many other things.

What about a player that commits to college and then gets drafted???????? shouldn't go pro? ...
What about the kid who tells a scout he will sign if he is drafted... then wants to attend college?
People change jobs, people get divorced. Some times its a good thing.

nj all the guys I know who were drafted after commitiing has a clause covering that. I know a couple who were committed to Oklahoma State and sined a pro deal. They knew they would be drafted and had a clause dealing with that if they signed.
Jobs are not life time commitments unlike marriage. Maybe the people who get divorced have a good reason. That can be a good thing ? The divorce could be the result of one or the other not honoring their commitment.

There is a big difference between demanding commitment and asking for martyrdom... Some people stay in jobs that take them nowhere and pay nothing for the sake of commitment, and some stay in marriages that are destructive for the same reason. Sometimes you end up making a "pointless" point.

These kids have 4 years to get as much experience as possible and play the best ball they can. Why ask them to sacrifice opportunities that are hard-won, unexpected, and quite possibly rare? I'd be upfront, honest, and hope my son's coach has his best interests at heart and gives us his blessing to go.

The only reason I can think of is because a coach has committed to your son.
How would you like a coach who has committed to your son to back out on his commitment?
If you think that is pointless well what can I say ?

quote:

How would you like a coach who has committed to your son to back out on his commitment?

If he explained why and it was reasonable (and to me, reasonable includes 'I found a better player') then I would be ok with it. Might disagree, but why would I want him to be my son's coach if he doesn't want to be?

And conversely, why would the coach want my son if he'd rather be somewhere else with a better opportunity? And more to the point, why would a coach EVER want to hold my son or anyone's son back from a better opportunity?

JB,
I hear ya on your story. Son tried out for USA as well, if he had made it, he would have had to give up another committment. That happens.

But that was what the coach expected him to do and was discussed in advance.
If a player committs to a summer team and gets drafted out of HS and signs, he is giving up his committment. Same for a player who signs for a summer league and decides not to play (as DK and ED last summer).

If you notice, in my original post I never mentioned that we knew if the coach was better than the other. I left that out on purpose.

What I find today are that many players committ to play for teams because they think another opportunity might not come along, then another opportunity comes along, they are made promises and made to believe that this will be a better choice for them. Many times the grass is not always greener on the other side. I do beleive that if we teach our kids when they are young to make sure their decisions are made carefully and honestly, even if it means explaining if a better opportunity comes along they may take it, they won't get tagged as "the player who jumps from team to team".
I remember in HS a player leaving our travel team to go play for a top ranked team for wood bat in Jupiter. Thought he would get better looks, he was a catcher. He didn't catch much because this team had all the "top prospects" on it. The next week asked the coach to come back to the team, he said no.
I know of too many who jump from team to team, school to school, coach to coach because they are looking for something they most likely will never find.
Everyone has brought up great points in honoring committments. We might expect our kids to tell a travel coach that he has found a better opportunity after making a committment, but we (at least I)would not expect our kids to verbal to a school and then change mind because of a better opportunity. There are things that we find acceptable and things we don't as far as honor goes.
I do beleive if one is brought up to beleive he/she can change their minds on a whim, without thinking things through carefully they will go through life not able to make smart decisions on thier own.
As far as the decision that Catsuremom's son made, I completely understand. The best part seems to be that her son made a decision, may not have been in his best interest, but he learned to accept responsibility in what he felt was the best thing for him to do. I am sure, that he most likely learned from that and making decisions in the future will come easier.

Differences in advice we give doesn't make one way better than another. If we teach to honor all commitments, that's ok, if we say it's ok to change your mind for a better opportunity that's ok too.

JMO

So your son is packing his bags, telling everyone he is going to X school and you are going to be all rational about it. Maybe can't find a school because all have committed to ther players, no scholarship money left.
I hear Lawsuit.
I know coaches who released players and believe me they were hot. Yes they said what can I do. Too late to find a replacement and they do hold a grudge. Real Life.

Unfortunately coaches do back out of committments. There is validity to the point that justbb makes, if both agree. Destructive marriages and staying at dead end jobs do not really factor into keeping your word and committment. Yes a marriage should definitely be a committment, but if it is destructive, someone is probably not acting honorably anyway.
Your "word" considering a job, should be built around honesty, ie doing what you were hired to do, not stealing, etc. Changing jobs is not dishonorable. A young man giving his word to a coach that he can count on him to be on the roster is where this discussion was headed. Some think it is OK to "back out" for a better opportunity. In the end, only each person can decide if they are "good" for their word. We are all to ready to water down and rationalize what we do, our word, in order to further ourselves. IMHO a life well lived is one that is built on integrity in all things.
When the individual puts value on their "word", they usually give great consideration to any committment that they are inclined to make. Not a bad lesson for our children to claim.

I've never been on a team where the coach didn't hold tryouts every season. And I haven't been on a team where my kid's position was assured every year. Coaches are committed to my kid to a point, but they are usually more committed to a winning program. IE: I've never seen one who would not pick up a stud player and bump another flailing kid to the bench who had gotten the coach's commitment only months before. Or not even keep him the following season. That's baseball! New opportunities pop up for coaches, teams, and players. I do not agree with jumping from team to team habitually--just evaluating every opportunity for it's value and making choices, and living with the consequences of those choices.

quote:

I know of too many who jump from team to team, school to school, coach to coach because they are looking for something they most likely will never find.

I think we would all agree this is bad and not at all what I was trying to write about.

quote:

When the individual puts value on their "word", they usually give great consideration to any committment that they are inclined to make.

I agree with this too. And we most definitely teach this to our players and to our children.

CatSureMom - I really appreciate your respectful and thoughtful posts and I truly admire and agree with your philosophies on parenting. But if I had been your son's coach, I would have sat down with you (as I did with another player's father this past summer) and told you why you NEEDED to move to the better team.

In college you make a commitment and you have to tryout as well. A real shocker to most HS players. You don't play well you sit. Lots don't know they have to make the roster and the travel roster.
We also had tryouts every year and when you signed a commitment at that Elite level it was usually covered with a deposit. Many unhappy players jumped to other teams. The coaches would keep the deposit and say good ridance. One guy jumped in the middle of a tournament and one minute he was on our team and the next he was pitching against us. He later went to a JC and failed the drug test. Spoilled kid who all of a sudden put on muscle and you could see he was on dope. His performance did improve but the end result he washed out of baseball. Commitment = character. That doesn't mean there are not circumstances that dictate changing direction but we would never break a firm commitment.

I have NEVER kept a kid's deposit...even when I thought he (or his parents) were out of line in their jump to another team.

Now...I may never take them back onto our team if they were improper in their departure, but I've never kept their money.

In our area there are about 20 Elite teams all vying for players. Large budget teams $100,000.00 + a year in expenses. # uniforms and all the bags coats etc. That is part why they do it.
They get stiffed all the time so they had to do it.

Catsuremom,
I do beleive (in fact I know) Justbaseball would have done what is right for the player, first and foremost.
Many coaches would not have, JBB is most likely an exception to that!

IMO, this thread is off track. We are talking about a travel coach who isn't so good, but is a nice guy and a kid being offered a position on a team that sounds like it might be loosely affiliated with his high school program but the family doesn't know if the coach is good or bad. That was the original post's scenario. (Not college, marriage, or going pro.)

So you evaluate before making a decision:
Call around to inquire about the coach of the feeder team, is he a good instructor? Somebody knows him, so check. Is this team endorsed by the high school coach for his boys in the off season? Will he give preferrence to players who have participated? Is this a coach the head-man at the HS feels is a good instructor for this team? Will your son grow more as a player than he will with the coach who isn't very good but a nice guy? Maybe, maybe not. Will he play his prefered position, or not?

If it would hurt your kid during his freshman year not to play on this team, then what? If the travel team has enough players without you or can easily pull another allstar up from league ball to fill the roster, would it be so bad to leave?

There are many factors that would weigh into a decision about leaving one team for another. It is not a hard line issue, and isn't necessarily about commitment or character. Each situation is different and one must use reason and judgement in each unique case.

Quillgirl,
About your post, the player was only committing for the fall (not his entire freshman season). Nothing was said about it possibly being a life changing experience. The team was a pretty good team, made up of good talent from the surrounding area. The player who played for the nice guy coach who wasn't the best coach in the world was a starting pitcher, third and first baseman and center fielder when needed the season before, team leader. The new coach who called him put together a team for the HS players to get to know each other. He only said he felt that it would be in son's best interest to play with his future team mates. What it really was about, was getting one of the best young players in the area to get on his team (can't fault him for that). It was the same league different team. That coach later became the unpaid assistant coach for the JV HS team.

You are right, it wasn't about changing careers, marriage, verbal commitment for college, going pro over going to college, etc. Just a 14 year old turning 15 making a commitment to a team he had played for and done well. I find it interesting that some took it as a possible better opportunity over the other team, by just mentioning the coach was a good guy, nothing said about the other coach, some assumed he was better.
I was just curious as to what you and others would have advised son if he had asked what he should do. Without the analyzing.