What age to start w/ pitching instruction?

I would recommend starting now. The sooner they begin learning the best mechanics, the better. The longer it is put off, the harder bad habits will be to break. And the more potential for injury/damage caused by mechanical problems.

The difficult part is finding an excellent pitching coach. They are few & far between. Ask around. Watch some of the pitching coach's pupils on the mound in games. Attend the lessons with your son. Listen. If something doesn't make sense, ask questions.

I would also recommend using the PC on a regular basis (e.g., weekly). Too often I have seen kids who go to a PC for a few weeks, then lay off for six months. Then back again. Those kids don't seem to make much progress.

I agree with Texan. You should also use the towel drill. If done properly it will get him to extend and bend.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat H:
From what he and I could see one of his flaws is that he has a tendency to not bend at his waist as much as he should when he finishes his pitch.

FYI, there is debate around whether bending forward at the waist is a good thing or not.

I am of the opinion that a 45 degree forward lean (ala Greg Maddux) is enough. Others say that a 90 degree forward lean is better. I think a 90 degree forward lean is problematic because it puts the pitcher in a weaker fielding position.

Also, if your son's problem is missing up in the zone, then the root cause of the problem is more likely to be rushing than it is to be not leaning far enough forward.

quote:

I think a 90 degree forward lean is problematic because it puts the pitcher in a weaker fielding position.

I feel the exact opposite. Bending at the waist gives a better fielding position. I taught my son to stay low at the finish for a secocond or 2, squared to the plate ,head focused on the ball. This allows him to move in any direction and field the comebacker up the middle which is usually a base hit if it gets through. Compare it to a guy who pulls to the side.
The other benefit is better control and less stress on the arm as you create a nice finish arm slot as you deaccellerate.

Focus on getting the best pitch in there, and you won't have to worry much about fielding...

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I feel the exact opposite. Bending at the waist gives a better fielding position. I taught my son to stay low at the finish for a secocond or 2, squared to the plate ,head focused on the ball. This allows him to move in any direction and field the comebacker up the middle which is usually a base hit if it gets through. Compare it to a guy who pulls to the side.

It depends where you glove is.

I prefer that the glove finish at the Glove Side pec so that it can protect the sternum and the face. This seems to be easier to achieve if you are less tilted forward.

That would be nice.

Pat,

I think you're fine starting now at 10 years old. I would say the sooner the better. Surely there are some former major league or college pitchers in your area who offer instruction. I would agree with the suggestion to be there during the instruction and pay attention. Every kid has tendencies they fall into even after they've had some instruction. You just need to know what your son's bad tendencies are and what to watch for. Identifying a couple good verbal cues to cure those tendencies is important too since the pitching instructor will not be there to see him on a regular basis.

When my middle son was 7/8 years old he really opened up his front side and dropped his arm angle to just sling the ball around the infield. He constantly complained of elbow pain. So I took him to see an instructor (former MLB pitcher) under the guise of learning to pitch, but it was really just to straighten out his general throwing mechanics. We did this during the winter between his 8 & 9 yr old seasons. It took probably 10-12 sessions before I could really see the transformation. He did so well that he was actually our #1 pitcher as a 9 yr old and 10 yr old. We'll be starting this off-season sessions Feb. 1 in anticipation of a late-March start to the season. His sessions now are more a tune up since he retains 95% or more of what he's been taught. It's now just a matter of reminding his body what to do during the throwing motion. For your son, his first winter will be the toughest, learning the basics. Each winter after that should be more in line with the tune up.

If your instructor is good and really takes the time to know your son and understand his ability, he can teach him more than just the basic mechanics. For example, during the last year our instructor has been able to teach my son some of the mental approach to pitching. He understands how important it is to control his emotions, even if there's a bad call or one of his teammates makes an error. He also learns how to pitch certain batters...e.g. when to throw a change up, etc. Of course we can't control the pitch sequence called by my son's coach but my son talks to his coach when he has a question about why he called a certain pitch in a certain circumstance. Just having this thought process has helped him become a better pitcher and will give him an advantage when he's older.

Hopefully your son can benefit in some of the same ways we've experienced.

Good luck.
Jon

I would add to my previous comments on choosing a pitching coach. Do not put much weight on whether or not the PC was an MLB'er. Just because they pitched in the pros does not mean that they can teach a youngster. Some of them really don't know what they did that made them successful. It came natural to them. And thus they can't teach what they don't know.

Find a student of the game that can teach.

Very good advice Texan, and something I skipped over. We tried 2 other guys before we found an instructor who could communicate with kids and develop a rapport with my son. He happens to be a former MLB pitcher but that's not why we chose him.

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?&p=999&uid=785...d=222803906&offset=0



This is a shot of my son finishing a pitch were his trailing leg and glove are starting forward to square up. The other is at point before starting foward.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
I would add to my previous comments on choosing a pitching coach. Do not put much weight on whether or not the PC was an MLB'er. Just because they pitched in the pros does not mean that they can teach a youngster. Some of them really don't know what they did that made them successful. It came natural to them. And thus they can't teach what they don't know.

Find a student of the game that can teach.

Great point.

Some guys hold completely misguided ideas and (inadvertently) give bad advice.

PatH, Most agree that it’s time at age 10 to teach a young “pitcher” the mechanics of pitching. Go for it. Before you and I get too caught up in trying to address the specific drills needed to help your son, I recommend you find a reputable instructor and have faith that he can help your son. Not singling you out but as I look back I think we parents would be better served if we were to ASK the instructors what WE can do to help ---- instead of suggesting to the instructor what THEY should do. If you do suspect your son has a flaw (like not bending at the waist) ask the instructor a question like “Should he bend more at the waist?” --- or --- “What flaws do you see in his delivery?” Remember we’re looking for improvements, not compliments.
Fungo

In a previous thread, we detailed standard throwing drills designed to develop proper throwing mechanics in all players.

For a player just starting out on the mound, all you really want is for him to get his fastball over the plate consistently. Your basic Little League game is typically decided according to which team gives up the most walks. Keep the walks down and you experience success.

Also, your son is still too young for breaking pitches, and will be for at least 4 more years -- many would argue you should wait longer than that.

At age 10, a player with pitching experience, and who has gotten to where he can consistently throw the fastball for strikes, can move on to adding a change-up.

Putting all these points together for a plan of action:

1. Don't move on to other things until he can throw the fastball for strikes. Until he can do that, effort spent learning other things (like change-ups) is just a distraction and likely to contribute more to failure than to success.

2. Especially at a young age, pitching is just refined throwing. So, I don't know that you really need a professional pitching instructor for a while yet. A decent Little League dad who is at least making an effort to learn the basics can pass them along adequately enough. And if you don't have a coach doing that, you can do it. In fact you're in the best position to do it, from the standpoint of consistency and being there for the long haul. In short, learn the drills, work them with your son, and he will be fine for his pre-teen years.

3. Where it goes from there depends on the development your son shows.

If he's a youth phenom at age 12, you may want to at least visit a good instructor just to have his mechanics reviewed and to get an opinion on how he's doing, whether he's protecting himself or hurting himself, etc. If he's your typical Little Leaguer who throws a few innings here and there but plays basically for recreation and not with dreams of MLB, then I'd say a pitching coach at that point is still a waste of your money. But if he's showing promise, then I think it would merit a modest investment in getting a pro perspective and maybe a few tips on things he needs to work on. But I still wouldn't pay for weekly sessions or anything on that order, just yet.

If your son is still playing by age 14, then it's time to give a pro instructor more serious thought. This is where he's on the cusp of high school ball, and now refinements of his natural motion and proper instruction in breaking pitches become big issues in whether or not he makes the team or, if he makes the cut, whether or not he gets in the games.

But the heartbreaker is, these days a whole heckuva lotta kids are gone from baseball by age 14. There's probably no harm to your son from getting him professional instruction at an early age, but personally I think you are going to waste a lot of money up to that point if you do it. You can afford to wait and see how it goes.

The best thing that I did in baseball for my son was getting him with an excellent pitching coach after his 9YO season.

I think it is important to learn some of the basics like keeping weight back, elbows high and proper stride. It is an ego booster as well to be taught by ML guys and knowing you are doing things the right way.

For a young 8-9 year old kid, I would have the Dad buy a book called "Pitching". It is by Bob Shaw, a former fine Big League pitcher and coach. What it will do is teach the Dad how to help the youngster.

If the Dad does not know anything about how to pitch a baseball, how will he know if the instructor he takes his kid to is any good or not.

I have read many posts over the years about how Dad took his kid to a fine instructor....well, how do you know if he is a fine instructor if you don't know anything about pitching?

Buy Shaws book and you will at least learn how to grip the ball and how the arm and body work when throwing a baseball. Then, if you send him to a pitching coach, you will have an idea if the pitching coach is any good or not.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I agree with Texan. You should also use the towel drill. If done properly it will get him to extend and bend.

I have done this drill many times with many students, but I see some pitching coaches that stand too close and really don't allow the pitcher to extend out as far as they should. I have kids do it where it takes at least 10-15 times before they actually touch my glove with the towel. They don't think there's any way they'll ever reach it at the beginning, but eventually they will if they stay at it. It's a great drill when done correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I think it is important to learn some of the basics like keeping weight back, elbows high and proper stride. It is an ego booster as well to be taught by ML guys and knowing you are doing things the right way.

Why would you want to keep the weight back and the elbows high?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
For a young 8-9 year old kid, I would have the Dad buy a book called "Pitching". It is by Bob Shaw, a former fine Big League pitcher and coach. What it will do is teach the Dad how to help the youngster.

I agree that this is a good book.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
For a young 8-9 year old kid, I would have the Dad buy a book called "Pitching". It is by Bob Shaw, a former fine Big League pitcher and coach. What it will do is teach the Dad how to help the youngster.

If the Dad does not know anything about how to pitch a baseball, how will he know if the instructor he takes his kid to is any good or not.

I have read many posts over the years about how Dad took his kid to a fine instructor....well, how do you know if he is a fine instructor if you don't know anything about pitching?

Buy Shaws book and you will at least learn how to grip the ball and how the arm and body work when throwing a baseball. Then, if you send him to a pitching coach, you will have an idea if the pitching coach is any good or not.

I read this book back in HS when I first started pitching. It basically taught me the basics of what I needed to know way back in the late 70's!!

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I think it is important to learn some of the basics like keeping weight back, elbows high and proper stride. It is an ego booster as well to be taught by ML guys and knowing you are doing things the right way.

Why would you want to keep the weight back and the elbows high?

I'm sure he means the elbow above the shoulder during the delivery of the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
If the Dad does not know anything about how to pitch a baseball, how will he know if the instructor he takes his kid to is any good or not.

I have read many posts over the years about how Dad took his kid to a fine instructor....well, how do you know if he is a fine instructor if you don't know anything about pitching?

If the dad can't make that judgement, hopefully he will have someone knowledgeable who can point him in the right direction. Reading one book might keep him away from a totally incompetent PC, but may not help in discerning between a mildly incompetent PC and an excellent one.

Which brings up a good point. While one wouldn't want to hop from PC to PC, one shouldn't be afraid to make a change if it becomes evident over time that the current PC isn't all that was expected. Some of them, just as with any profession, talk a great line but fail to deliver.

Texan, Have you read the book?

I have read so many pitching (and baseball) books that I can't recall their names & authors. I just can't say that any one book I read would have rendered me fit to pick an excellent PC.

I would encourage all dads to read as much as they can about all aspects of the game. Pitching, hitting, fielding as well as the history of the game. There are a few outstanding videos out there as well (the few nuggets amongst the stuff churned out for the purpose of making a buck).

Becoming a student of the game can be of great benefit to the youngsters you coach and to your own son.

OLD PITCHER that is what I meant.
The towel drill is one of the most effective drills and I see many pro pitchers still using it themselves as well as to instruct.
Staying back allows you to stay tall and get your weight behind the throw.

The 1st real pitching clinic my son went to at 14 was put on by Jim Ridley the former head pitching coach for the Jays. I askek him if I could video the 4 sessions and he said great. He was an excellent instructor and was assisted by 4 other pro scouts who went around checking all the kids to make sure they did each step properly. These scouts were really interested in developing ball players and not the money. Mr Ridley is now with the Twins after Richardi came to power.

Wow. I guess I did start up a little debate here. Just to give a little background, I have done some reseach and watched a few videos on proper techniques. I also was a pitcher up to my freshman yr in HS. I have taught him what I know and what i have have learned from reading and research. So my son has the basics. Like I said before his fall coach said his mechanics were solid. He has pitched for 4 seasons (3 summers and 1 fall).
I really appreciate all the info everyone has posted.

I think 10 is about the youngest I'd start lessons. Any younger and they just can't comprehend much of what you tell them. At about 10, some kids can both comprehend and implement what they're told.

As for the bending forward thing, I feel how much a pitcher bends forward isn't as important as the timing of the bend. Bend forward too soon and you waste the energy transferring up the chain and you end up throwing with mostly just the arm.

Regarding the towel drill, the purpose of the drill, as Tom House teaches it, is to have perfect mechanics. You try to hit the target by having good mechanics that get your release point out front - not by just extending. The concern with focusing on just extending is what I described in above - that the upper body will get out front too soon.

Bend too late and you also throw with all arm.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
I'm sure he means the elbow above the shoulder during the delivery of the ball.

Do you mean that he should tilt his shoulders?

The towel drill is not rocket science. It is not just to teach extension or bending alone. It is to develop good mechanics. All the elements of pitching.
Get a player or coach to kneel in front of you on one knee and put his glove on the front knee. He should be at a distance that gets the pitcher to stride properly and the towel will hit the glove. You can also use a chair.
The pitcher goes through his motion and keeps his elbows at shoulder hieght,(no shoulder tilt) stay tall (keep your weight back) rotate forward and drive to the glove bending and finishing low, (release out front).
Develop your rythm until everything works together to maximize your drive to the glove. If you cant feel the timing you are doing something wrong. Should be smooth culminating in power release.
Tall and fall is a controlled delivery which my son uses but there are other ways. lots of power pitchers do not bend and fall off to one side. My opinion is that tall and fall is easier on your arm and body. Better control as well.

There is a pretty good series of how-to pitching videos on YouTube, as I recall. Free.

Basic advice: play a ton of catch. Use a door mirror. Study your game videos. Throw indoors during the winter. Watch a lot of pro baseball and hang out around the bull pen when you go to games.

I know some fine pitchers who never took expensive private lessons. But I also know a few who SHOULD have.

BTW, parents are VERY reluctant to offer tips to other kids and their parents. ASK for opinions.

I am considering signing him up for a pitching clinic. It's a clinic that runs 1 hr/week for 5 weeks. It's at a place where a friend of mine (former pro player) will be teaching. He recommended it. So I think we'll give it a shot. From what I read on line the staff is definitely experienced in regards to pitching.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
I'm sure he means the elbow above the shoulder during the delivery of the ball.

Do you mean that he should tilt his shoulders?

I would not recommend tilting the shoulders at all. Just don't float forward with the upper body too early.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
I would not recommend tilting the shoulders at all. Just don't float forward with the upper body too early.

How do you get the elbow above the level of the shoulders if you don't tilt the shoulders?

I've been talking about way before you get to the throwing position. I'm talking about when you start moving your hips forward as the leg comes down.

I think you've been talking about during the throwing part of the delivery. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

Pat: We started our son with a coach at 9 - then another one from 10-15- then finally to his current coach. It took a while to find the right one. Our main concern was that he never hurt himself with mechanics. It is a process. Although I played some baseball I did not know good from bad in the beginning. As numerous posters have suggested, you must educate yourself thoroughly about the subject (read more than one book and watch more than one video on the subject). What you didn't mention is whether your son is ready for a coach. Is he? A coach is MUCH different than a clinic. You need to ask around in your league, and especially in the level above yours. Parents are glad to share info about good coaches. And, I would really suggest you be careful with the number of pitches and innings at such a young age. Play other positions, and make sure he does not pitch and then trot out to shortstop for the second game of a DH. Young arms MUST be protected, otherwise all your lessons won't matter at all. There's nothing like seeing your son on the mound with good mechanics and the beginning of the mental toughness all the good pitchers develop. Good luck!