What are the reasons for early recruiting, and can it be stopped without a major problem?

CaCO3Girl posted:

So, what are the reasons behind the recent trend of early recruiting?

I posted on another thread that it appears that 6 out of the 10 top 2021's (8th graders) are already committed to colleges.  It was also brought up that NCAA considers only 9th graders and up as "a prospective student athlete". 

It use to be unheard of for a college coach to approach a 9th grader, now they are committing 8th graders....assume 7th is on the way as well.  I mean they HAVE to get the early worm right?

How can this early recruiting be stopped?  Some people say "Oh that's easy, just make it so they can't talk to a kid at all until 11th grade"...but what does that do for the time line of the D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO's? 

With the exception of the top programs most kids aren't making commitments until post junior year summer. These top programs make a majority of their offers post soph summer. The reality is nothing is firm until signed senior year. Nothing would change except the absurdity of early recruiting of pre high school kids. When kids are getting hit on by coaches too early it removes the educational aspect of college from the decision. Most college coaches don't care about academics except their players being academically eligible. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

So, what are the reasons behind the recent trend of early recruiting?

I posted on another thread that it appears that 6 out of the 10 top 2021's (8th graders) are already committed to colleges.  

The reasons behind early recruiting is because in some conferences (power conferences) baseball has become big business. Winning conference championships or CWS is money in the bank.

Coaches go after the top prospects within their geographical (conference) areas because they don't want these players committing to the competition.

6 out of the top 10 2021 recruits is a very small amount.

I am not sure why it would bother most people, these are players who more than likely will never set foot on a college campus, not your average player and many 2 sport athletes.

Time lines for D2 and D3 programs run differently. While some programs recruit true freshman, many rely on JUCO as well as released D1 players, or those wanting to play everyday instead of being bench guys.

Once again control what you can, don't worry that your player will be left behind because there are plenty of programs signing players as juniors or seniors, or even grads. For most players, 4-5 years before graduation doesn't necessarily apply.

As mentioned by RJM, nothing is set in stone until senior fall during the early NLI signing period.

Crazy stuff, but i guess the excitement of that attention early locks them up and takes them off the market. Big win for the school, less of a win for the kid with all that time ahead of him and no real commitment to keep him if he regresses, gets in trouble or fails academically, or changes his mind and gets black-listed....unless of course he gets drafted. Congrats to any kid who gets that or those offers and has that option.

Our HS catcher was committed to Ga Tech as  freshman, somewhere around 2012. Frankly he played at East Cobb on top team since he was 7 so he was probably committed before then. He's playing for the Reds org now in Dayton after they spent $3.2M on him with the #11 pick in 2015.  

It is about getting talent before the competition does. If a college coach doesn't win he loses his job and the number of talented players is limited.

I think many coaches would like later recruiting but only if you could guarantee to them that the competition doesn't do it either.

It is just like PEDs in sports, the guys who cheat usually assume the competition does it too and so they don't want to fall behind.

If you don't want early recruiting you need to ban it and punish it heavily.

There is no one right answer here, but there is a clear background for early recruiting.  Actually, it is not all that recent.  It was started by John Savage when he was hired at UC Irvine about 2-3 years before they fielded a team.  Rather than go strictly JC's to build a team, he used those 2-3 years to do early recruiting of players (largely in Southern CA and especially in Orange Cy)  who would come to Irvine as freshman when they had their stadium built and would start play in the Big West. The model was successful for Irvine.  That model was successfully  followed by Coach Horton and Oregon when they started their baseball program  shortly after Irvine.

I would expect another factor in early recruiting was the contract signed at Tennessee about 5-6 years ago by Coach Serrano. At that point, his contract at $600,000 per year raised eyebrows and expectations.

Many of those who posted on this board at that point pondered the impact of the coaching salaries escalating, the elevation of the CWS profile on ESPN, and the general fact of more $$$$ in college baseball in terms of how those might change the "business side" of college baseball.

Looked at over time, I do think there is the one fact alone which lead to the start of early recruiting and that aspect falls squarely with Coach Savage and Coach Horton and their being successful with the approach with entirely new programs.

Once a model was in place which showed it could work, however, college coaching salaries increased both  recruiting dollars and financial "pressures" to get the best players.  Combine those dynamics with the proliferation of PG and the long time limitation of regional recruiting was no longer in play. 

Finally, with the further proliferation of travel ball and PG and showcasing, even down to 14-15 year olds,  we find a perfect recipe for college coaches to get verbals from the top players at the earliest stages with the least allocation of recruiting dollars. PG often posts here about how the best players they see at 15 are still the best at 18-19.  While the recipe is not perfect, the early "verbal" gives the college coach all the protection he might need while the player and parent will always feel the downside  would "never happen to me."

In my view, college coaches and their AD's are fully incentivized.  I doubt this changes much, if at all, going forward.  Using this approach and a CWS title, Coach Savage now has a contract through about 2025 at around $1M per year at UCLA. The flip side with Coach Serrano shows life isn't a bowl of cherries for the coaching staff who does not win.  He has made over $2,000,000 in the last few years.  However, it does not seem likely anything close to that income stream will be in his future.

I did a campus visit to Bowdoin as a baby. As soon as I could talk I committed. I look back and wonder if the Bowdoin 19?? onsie I was given followed by all the free sodas I was provided over the years in the Alumni House was illegal recruiting. 

TPM posted 

The reasons behind early recruiting is because in some conferences (power conferences) baseball has become big business. Winning conference championships or CWS is money in the bank.

Coaches go after the top prospects within their geographical (conference) areas because they don't want these players committing to the competition.

 

TPM nailed the reasons why IMHO.  What to do about it is a bit more challenging as that is going to rely on the NCAA (don't hold your breath for any extended period of time), and parents/recruits educating themselves on the process.  Coaches are driving this due to competitive reasons...anything to get an edge.  Recruits become pawns.

Okay so let me break this down, are these correct?

1. The super stud recruited in 8th grade will likely either get out of baseball or be drafted, so there is no point.

2. The early bloomer who doesn't advance will be dropped by the coach come senior year, so there is no point.

3. The kid who professes some but isn't draftable likely isn't good enough to play but he can ride the bench for four years, so there is no point.

Okay I've covered best, worse, and average case scenarios.  At what point is it a good idea for an 8th grader to commit?  I know several of you will say never BUT I'm sure these coaches are throwing out near or full rides to these youngsters...isn't that tempting?  A four year full ride just sign here.....

CaCO3Girl posted:

Okay I've covered best, worse, and average case scenarios.  At what point is it a good idea for an 8th grader to commit?  I know several of you will say never BUT I'm sure these coaches are throwing out near or full rides to these youngsters...isn't that tempting?  A four year full ride just sign here.....

At what point, should be when the player and his family decides what's best for their situation.

I don't know how a coach can offer any $$$. I always assumed it was an opportunity only with the player receiving a verbal offer when it would be applicable.

Nothing is signed until the NLI.

The three cases I have heard of directly from the parent the coaches offered 100% tuition.  There are other fees assoaicated with college but 100% tuition is still a huge chunk.

Im not sure why people keep bringing up that nothing is signed until the NLI.  There wouldn't be anyone to sign an NLI unless they were committed already right?

Room and board and other fees at a state school can be equal or greater than tuition, depending on school.  

The NLI isnt signed until senior fall, a lot can happen between 8th grade and senior fall.

The way I see it, there is a very simple solution to this "problem". Force the school's hand by having the NLI signed when the offer is made and accepted. This would put the coach on the hook. I guarantee you very few freshman or sophomores would be offered. Coaches have to win to keep their jobs and they would most likely want to see the player develop until they are certain the player could help his program. 

fenwaysouth posted:

TPM posted 

The reasons behind early recruiting is because in some conferences (power conferences) baseball has become big business. Winning conference championships or CWS is money in the bank.

Coaches go after the top prospects within their geographical (conference) areas because they don't want these players committing to the competition.

 

TPM nailed the reasons why IMHO.  What to do about it is a bit more challenging as that is going to rely on the NCAA (don't hold your breath for any extended period of time), and parents/recruits educating themselves on the process.  Coaches are driving this due to competitive reasons...anything to get an edge.  Recruits become pawns.

The problem is early recruiting benefits the major programs. The president's of the colleges with major programs own the NCAA. The NCAA lives in fear they will walk away if they don't get what they want..

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

Jim T. posted:

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

I blame the RC's because they have the power, they know the rules, and they dangle the carrot.  Again, when the head of XYZ D1 college says to the parents "I'll give your boy 100% tuition" they don't mention they won't be there in 5 years, or that there is a good chance they can and will drop the kid....it's razzle dazzle bologna...and most parents just don't know any better.

I really dont agree. I know of quite a few parents who have educated themselves on the process, and have reasons why or why not they will or will not allow early committment. They are smart, educated parents who understand all of the implications, in most instances they tell coaches their sons arent ready. They very much understand why their players are being  asked to commit so early. 

This doesnt make the parents who allow this to happen bad parents or the coach to be a bad guy.

Tuition only is 50% or less of a half of a scholarship. But in several cases, like the player who committed to louisville (great program and place to be in the ACC), this may be a 2 way player, which makes him more valuable.

In Georgia, a 3.0 GPA gets you 100% tuition (Hope Scholly) and usually the in-state schools will cover the rest. If you maintain a 3.0 throughout college, it equates to free school. If you don't maintain a 3.0, you're own your own for tuition. 

hshuler posted:

In Georgia, a 3.0 GPA gets you 100% tuition (Hope Scholly) and usually the in-state schools will cover the rest. If you maintain a 3.0 throughout college, it equates to free school. If you don't maintain a 3.0, you're own your own for tuition. 

Same here in Florida and other states. If son attended UF, with his package he would have gotten spending money out of the deal. 

TPM posted:

I really dont agree. I know of quite a few parents who have educated themselves on the process, and have reasons why or why not they will or will not allow early committment. They are smart, educated parents who understand all of the implications, in most instances they tell coaches their sons arent ready. They very much understand why their players are being  asked to commit so early. 

This doesnt make the parents who allow this to happen bad parents or the coach to be a bad guy.

Tuition only is 50% or less of a half of a scholarship. But in several cases, like the player who committed to louisville (great program and place to be in the ACC), this may be a 2 way player, which makes him more valuable.

Can any parent really understand all the implications? 

I guess I just hang with a bunch of knuckleheads because most of us are like "Huh?  What?  Why?  What does that mean?"....yup, bunch of rocket scientists over here ;-)

Jim T. posted:

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

The colleges know what they're doing. I don't blame the parents. Many parents are clueless when the recruiting process starts. How much information would the parents of an 8th or 9th grader accumulated?

RJM posted:

Jim T. posted:

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

The colleges know what they're doing. I don't blame the parents. Many parents are clueless when the recruiting process starts. How much information would the parents of an 8th or 9th grader accumulated?

Sounds like a good argument for the occassional decommit.  If you can articulate why you are decommitting (other than I was young and foolish), then you are simply admitting that the "decision" was made at a point in time and additional information has become available (new information or old information that was just recently brought to their attention) which points towards an incorrect "decision".  If you assume parents are simply blinded by the process and the kid is simply too young to make an informed decision, then the baseball community should not treat decommitments as kin to animal abuse.  Let the 8th grader "commit" with the full knowledge that BOTH sides have about 36 months to change their mind (and the college probably has more like 48 months but at least it reduces the relative leverage of each party).

The history of baseball verbals has mostly been both sides honor it. It's not the case in football and basketball. I see baseball verbals becoming less honorable if they are going to be ridiculously early. 

RJM posted:

Jim T. posted:

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

The colleges know what they're doing. I don't blame the parents. Many parents are clueless when the recruiting process starts. How much information would the parents of an 8th or 9th grader accumulated?

My son was just finishing eighth grade when his travel coach called me and said "we need to talk about D's arm. He has a gift. He will pitch varsity as a freshman and he will play college baseball if that's what he wants."

He then gave me tips both about arm care and recruiting.

I immediately signed up for this site, started reading all the articles I could find, found a retired college coach/AD and bought him coffee and pumped him for info on recruiting and started to make a plan. Now son is a junior and that plan is playing out pretty well, so far.

A girl at his HS just committed to a D1 school in basketball after her freshman year. We knew at her first game that she was outstanding.

Don't parents have some sense that their kids have a gift? Don't coaches tell parents? And once you know it, or guess it, or even just hope it, don't you start gathering information for whatever comes your way?

Sorry. Probably not. But they should.

Iowamom23 posted:

RJM posted:

Jim T. posted:

I hate that we feel like we must make laws, rules and regulations for people because we don't believe they can make decisions on their own.  I wonder why the OP blames the college RC's and not the parents?  It's really a dumb move on the part of the parent.  In so many cases, the coach's status is fluid.  You can be assured that in 50% of the situations either the RC or the HC will be gone from the athletes Freshmen year in HS to the time he reaches campus.  

The colleges know what they're doing. I don't blame the parents. Many parents are clueless when the recruiting process starts. How much information would the parents of an 8th or 9th grader accumulated?

My son was just finishing eighth grade when his travel coach called me and said "we need to talk about D's arm. He has a gift. He will pitch varsity as a freshman and he will play college baseball if that's what he wants."

He then gave me tips both about arm care and recruiting.

I immediately signed up for this site, started reading all the articles I could find, found a retired college coach/AD and bought him coffee and pumped him for info on recruiting and started to make a plan. Now son is a junior and that plan is playing out pretty well, so far.

A girl at his HS just committed to a D1 school in basketball after her freshman year. We knew at her first game that she was outstanding.

Don't parents have some sense that their kids have a gift? Don't coaches tell parents? And once you know it, or guess it, or even just hope it, don't you start gathering information for whatever comes your way?

Sorry. Probably not. But they should.

Some kids become D1 prospects overnight. My daughter was one of them. I played D1baseball. I can recognize talent. After 8th grade I saw a moderately talented softball player playing 16u. I figured she could start as a high school freshman given the previous year's team was 4-18. College softball was never a discussion. 

She was a physical late bloomer for a girl. By the time fall of freshman year started she had grown to 5'10". It changed her mental and emotional makeup. She became a very aggressive athlete. A kid I figured would enjoy high school softball (only sport she previously played well) earned eleven varsity letters in three sports at a large high school. Her teams won six conference titles.

I knew nothing other than talent prevails. This hasn't changed from when I played baseball. Fortunately the high school coach worked to get her moved up to an 18u Gold team. The dad of another freshman (D1 prospect) softball prospect had older sisters playing D1 softball. He mentored me and three other parents of D1 prospects through the process. 

But you would be surprised how many parents have bought the "if he/she has talent they will be found" line. It only applies to nationally regarded studs. As you know players get found by placing themselves in the right place to be found.

Your son and my daughter (the first athlete of two) had the benefit of high school coaches who saw something and pointed them in the right direction. A lot of high school coaches don't do this. 

Iowamom23 posted:

 

Don't parents have some sense that their kids have a gift? Don't coaches tell parents? And once you know it, or guess it, or even just hope it, don't you start gathering information for whatever comes your way?

Sorry. Probably not. But they should.

1. You are assuming the kid is on a team with a knowledgeable coach...not always the case. Still dad coached teams at 18u that has been sweet talking the stud kid for years and his parents don't switch teams because it's easier to stick with what they know.

2. Most parents think their kid is special, just ask them. I posted a thread awhile back called do you over or underestimate your kid...many top players parents UNDER estimate their kid and what they can do. There are several on this board that said "yeah I thought he could play high school but when college coaches called that was a surprise."

3. I have met many parents over the years that just dropped their kid at practice/games and didn't even watch them play.  Sometimes it was due to working two jobs, sometimes due to other children having to be somewhere, but sometimes it's because they could care less about baseball, they aren't searching out information.

 I'm not so much worried about the parents that found this site, I'm worried about the parents that haven't.

I guess the oral commitment is only as good as the school and kid want it to be - but recognize that BOTH have to be in agreement when the binding contract is signed.

Here are some questions you eighth grade parents can answer:

• what will be that 8th grader's HS grades,
• what will be that kid's test scores
• what will be his intended major
• which classes will he enjoy/excel at in HS
• How many colleges has he visited and what does he like and not like about the students, classes, courses (heck, how many colleges can he name which aren't national powerhouses appearing on tv)
• which colleges will be legit options based upon his academics
• Does he have a girl friend he doesn't want to leave
• does he like high rise or low rise dorms
• does he want a cold weather or warm weather climate
• Does he want a small school, big school, city school, rural school, religious school, private, public, etc.
• does he want a school where athletes live together or a school which encourages its students to move beyond their sport
• Will he want to attend the school if the Coach recruiting him leaves.

In eighth grade, my kids couldn't answer any of those questions; I, however, could have answered all of them "on his behalf." Fast forward to HS junior year, and half my answers would have been proven wrong; go further to the end of college and most of my answers would have been wrong.

There is simply no context within which an eighth grade kid can decide.  School colors, older siblings, tv exposure, parents alma maters, close by colleges - those are what an eighth grader knows, and therefore, weighs. He doesn't have the depth to weigh employment opportunities (and please don't say he'll be a proball player because it's all he ever wanted), post graduate opportunities, and the rest of the subtleties which should go into making a college choice. Baseball is only one element (though it may be the elephant in the room); an eighth grader (unshaven, bike riding, eye rolling) deserves the chance to develop his personality, wants, and desires so that HE (not his parents who have, so to speak already made their beds) can have a meaningful base of information upon which a decision which will impact his entire working career (unless he makes it to MLB for a decent amount of time) is based. 

Patience, patience. Let the boy develop into a young man, let him form his own ideas, challenge him to base his conclusions on a well thought out logical basis; if indeed he's good enough to attract attention at that age (when mine was 5'1" and 100 lbs), and if his skills continue to advance, no doors are shut by waiting.

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

I really dont agree. I know of quite a few parents who have educated themselves on the process, and have reasons why or why not they will or will not allow early committment. They are smart, educated parents who understand all of the implications, in most instances they tell coaches their sons arent ready. They very much understand why their players are being  asked to commit so early. 

This doesnt make the parents who allow this to happen bad parents or the coach to be a bad guy.

Tuition only is 50% or less of a half of a scholarship. But in several cases, like the player who committed to louisville (great program and place to be in the ACC), this may be a 2 way player, which makes him more valuable.

Can any parent really understand all the implications? 

I guess I just hang with a bunch of knuckleheads because most of us are like "Huh?  What?  Why?  What does that mean?"....yup, bunch of rocket scientists over here ;-)

Good question, CaCo. (I learned that in business school)

I don't think they can understand the implications at 8th grade (parents or kids).  But the parent can understand the variables.

Take the some of the list posted above by the esteemed poster xxxxxxxxx(forgot now that I am on the reply page).  Specifically the ones that would make the school a bad choice.

• what will be that 8th grader's HS grades,
• what will be that kid's test scores
• what will be his intended major
• which classes will he enjoy/excel at in HS
• How many colleges has he visited and what does he like and not like about the students, classes, courses (heck, how many colleges can he name which aren't national powerhouses appearing on tv)
• which colleges will be legit options based upon his academics
• Does he have a girl friend he doesn't want to leave
• does he like high rise or low rise dorms
• does he want a cold weather or warm weather climate
• Does he want a small school, big school, city school, rural school, religious school, private, public, etc.
• does he want a school where athletes live together or a school which encourages its students to move beyond their sport
• Will he want to attend the school if the Coach recruiting him leaves.
• (added) will he be an athletic fit by 18yo
• (added) will he continue to develop

Do the math thing.  If any of the above list have a 20% chance of it being the wrong choice, it's 80% it would be the right choice based on that one criteria.  So (.80)^14 is 4%.  Same as drawing blackjack.  

It would require the NCAA to grow a pair.. which we all know they won't do. Neither will high school organizations. These organizations no longer run athletics.