what constitutes "out of the box"?

NFHS rule 2-7-2 states that the lines are part of the box so the 6 inch space between the plate and the batters box should be measured from the outside edge of the plate to the outside edge of the batters box.

NFHS rule 7-3-2 Hit the ball fair or foul while either foot is touching touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box or touching home plate.

Penalty: For infraction of Articles 2 and 3, the ball becomes dead immediately and the batter is out.

Hope this helps.

Rookieblue

Thanks Rookieblue,

Please let me know if my interpretation is correct.

A batter could conceivably get his foot as close to the plate as he can (but not touching it, while hitting the ball fair or foul and not be called out), provided some part of the foot is touching the box line.

thanks,

rayporco

In NFHS your interpretation is correct (I can not speak for any other league as I only call NFHS). The rule is black and white. The line is part of the box and so long as the batter's foot is not completely out side the box or touching the plate the batter is good to go.

Thanks again Rookieblue,

My personal opinion is that the rule could lead to an abuse by the batter. The batter could possibly stand with his toes a 1/2 inch from the plate, keep his body from leaning over the plate (increasing his chances of getting hit), make a legal attempt at avoiding a pitch that is thrown at him, get hit and be awarded a base.
Of course this would look like, smell like, and seem like gaining an unfair advantage, but a strict interpretation by an umpire assigned to uphold the rules of the NFHS is in all reality powerless to prevent the abuse.

Another personal opinion of mine is that the NFHS should adopt the Major League Rule on this one.

Your thoughts?

A batter can not stand 1/2 inch away from the plate...The rule book is clear on this....


NFHS rule 2-7-2- the batters box is a 4x6 foot area in which the batter must stand while batting. the lines are part of the box. Now it is legal for a batter to assume a postion with a part of his foot on the line, but no part of the foot may be outside of the line. (official NFHS interpretation) source 2005 BRD.

NFHS rule 1 diagram 2- The rule states that the line must be 6 inches from Home plate.

So to be clear a batter must be at least 6 inches from the plate as per the rules.....

Then you have the question of can he step outside the box to hit a pitched ball? Yes he can. But he must have a portion of his foot inside the box. (reference NFHS rule 7-3-2)


My only concern about this whole scenario is batters boxes in HS reality. I am also from W.Pa as you are, and for every HS field with a ground crew and template that can put in a legal box, I am apt to find many more with a hand poured line that is not legal. Then it is up to me to determine a legal distance. No umpire worth his hire is going to let a batter stand 1/2 inch from the plate.....

Now to your point, if you have had an umpire who allowed this, then you have a reason to complain....would I get ejected for arguing this point?..probably not....

I stand corrected. After reading the 2005 Baseball Case Book for rule 7.3.2 Situation A: When is a batter's foot considered to be inside the batter's box? Ruling: The batter is considered to be in the batter's box when no part of either foot is touching the ground outside the boundry lines forming the batters box. It is permissible for the feet to be touching the boundary lines forming the batter's box, since the lines are part of the box. The batter may legally hit the ball with one foot in the box and the other foot in the air outside the box, and then contact the ground outside the box with the foot that was airborne.

I agree with you piaa_ump on HS batter's boxes. I called a game Saturday (in which I was lit up like a Christmas Tree for blowing a fair/foul call on the third base line)and they didn't even have batters boxes on the field. As the PU what do you do in that situation?

As the name implies I am a rookie so any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Blue,
You hang in there..........Read my post on here just above this on blowing Fair/Foul calls. It does happen and there is not much you can do about it but take your lumps. On your second point, if there is no legal box then you must do your best and use your judgment.

best of luck...........let me know what I can do for you....

piaa_ump,

thanks, and that is what I wanted to hear - a clear interpretation.

my experience was years ago and not a high school game (pony all star).

I questioned the ump on a batter's position (he almost had his toes on the plate). He ignored me. I repeated. He stopped the game, came over to the fence and actually told me that there were no lines signifying the box. I stood up and nose to nose told him (I probably was a little loud also) that just because the lines weren't there didn't mean that a box didn't exist. And then I was ejected.

I think that where a batter stands in the box is not only crucial to the batter's performance but also the pitcher's performance. I don't blame a hitter to try and gain whatever edge he can get as long as it is within the rules.

thanks again,
maybe we'll see each other this year. I'd sure like to chat with you.
ray porco
Bishop Canevin

As PIAA_Ump mentioned above he must be inside or on the lines. If the batter is crowding the plate that hard then portions of his body are probably in the strikezone. If he struck in the zone then it's a deadball, a strike and the batter stays in the box.

This reminds me of a time when one of my sons was pitching (RH) on JV. Right handed batter, count 3-2. Son threw a big round house curve to a batter that was crowding the plate. The batter decided he did not want to get hit, just take ball four. He jumped on the middle of the plate to try avoid the ball. The ball hit him on the left side of his rear end. The umpire called dead ball, HBP. My son came running off the mound yelling the batter was on the plate. The umpire then called ball four. My son continued to protest. The umpire then met with the Base Ump. They came back and called strike 3. The other coach came out and protested. I heard the umpire tell him that if he did not like it, tell his players to not crowd the plate.

the coaches and the umpires are supposed to have a pregame conference 5 minutes before the start of the game. if there is a question about the playing field, it should be brought up then.(eg the marking of the batter's box) etc.

This can be a touchy subject. I remember a few years back Carl Everett got into it with the umpire over this very issue, Everett was always set up on the very border of legal and illegal at the back of the batters box. The argument got ugly and Everett went ballistic and headbutt the umpire. Note to ump: keep your facemask on and then let him try that again.

I had issue with this durring this past weekends tournament in 11,12,13 year old league. During the first inning i observed every batter on the opposing team was taking initial position with their feet clearly closer than 6 inches and some as close as 1 inch to the plate. between innings I requested that the umpire look at the foot position and or make a ruleing. I do not teach my boys to stand any closer than the front line of the box, leaving a minimun of 6 inches clear in front of the foot to the plate. the umpire did not / would not make the other teams batters start with both feet within the box. middle of the second inning I asked about this again, at this point she stated that she was about sick of this and told me that if any part of the foot was touching the line that it was a legal starting position and that i needed to be quiet about it. she then went and asked another (official) about her ruleing. I commented about this fact that she made a ruleing without knowing the rules, this I should have kept to myself 20-20.....

when she stated that this was the rule i agreed to play by the ruleing, our head coach then had another question about late roster additions for a youth that had arrived late to the game, the other team, he was allowed to join the game at the end of the lineup and that is ok with me everybody plays rule.

he then asked me what my question was and i told him it didn't matter that i had been ruled wrong, this is when i was ejected from the game. I began to walk quietly to the dougout with out arguement or speaking to her at all. as i reached our dougout I informed our players and coaches that as long as the feet were touching the line we could also stand as close to the plate as we wanted.... this is when she ejected me from the grounds.

I contacted our towns local official and asked about this rule and to my shegrin was informed that this was the interpritation of the rule for the whole league. I can not agree

11, 12, 13 year old pitchers cannot comand their pitches to retake the inside of the plate when the batter is this close. they do not want to hit anyone with a pitch thus effectivly shrinking the strike zone by 6 inches..... after getting behind in the count the pitcher in order to throw a strike takes a little something off the pitch and bam a line drive hit.... I know that this was taught by the coaching staff certianly after having another team do the same to them....and getting the ruleing of our officials. I would like to after the season is over, maybe tonight, get with the officials and clarify this rule for next year. where do i find the documentation that will show the clarified rule.

quote:

Where do I find the documentation that will show the clarified rule.

That depends on the ruleset you are playing under. The discussion in the earlier posts in this thread referred to NFHS rules, which are written for high school players, and are not generally used for 11-13 year old players.

As an example, the Little League rule for 60 foot bases is that the batter's box extends to within 4 inches from the plate, rather than the 6 inches which is commonly used for 90 foot bases.

However, the written rule in all codes is that a player must have all or both feet with the outer edges of the lines marking the box when he takes his stance. However, there is no penalty, and frequently the inner lines of the box have been rubbed out by previous batters. Some locales don't even mark the inside lines of the box. Umpires vary in how they handle this, but usually they tend to ignore the issue.

There is a rule which does have a penalty: the batter is out if he has all of either foot on the ground outside the box when he makes contact with the ball. Most umpires will tell you that they have more important issues to deal with at the moment the ball is reaching the plate, so this tends to only be called if it is quite obvious.

I wonder if your discussion with the umpire and later with the town official may have had some element of confusion about which rule was being discussed?

I'll also mention how this was handled in a game my son was in a few years ago. One batter tried to setup with the toe of his front foot in front the plate. (The inner lines of the box were no longer visible.) After one instruction to set up legally, the umpire simply let it go, and when the batter made contact (a foul ball), the umpire immediately called him out. Sure, it wasn't the rulebook way to handle it, but it was very effective! I imagine that if he were hit by a pitch, it would have simply been ruled a deadball strike.

i dont think any of the officials can tell me what rule book we were using..... if it was the 4 inch rule that would be fine as the line was marked at the time of my complaint.. I do believe that the inforcement of the rule is batter instructed to take proper position in box, 10 seconds to comply, strike one no pitch, batter instructed again, 10 seconds to comply, strike two no pitch.. so on. As coaches we were told that rules clarification would be allowed to discuss but judgement calls(strike ball safe out) were not argueable. I was just trying to understand the rules that we were playing by so i could play by these rules.

we were playing inbetween pony and hs field layout. 55 foot pitch and 75 foot bases.

Oops guess I coulda save some typing by reading this on first?
What they said..

When the batter takes his position in the box, both feet must be entirely within (or on) the lines. There is no penalty, it's just a "don't do that." If the batter refuses to comply after being told to do so, he gets ejected (but he is not out).

Hitting the ball is a different rule. If the batter hits the ball (fair or foul) with one or both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter's box, he is out, the ball is dead, and runners return. Under high school and college rules, the batter is also out if he hits the ball while his foot is touching the plate (even if he is in the box). The "touching the plate" part does not exist in OBR.