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Here’s a topic for Debate

Often I read what posters have to say about how the players of today aren’t as tough or as good as those players years ago. The opinions range from the lack of hitting to the lack of pitching and everything in between.

It is brought up when discussing everything from pitch counts and abuse, to hitters no longer hitting for average or doing the little things like ‘slap’ hit. It has been said that kids these days don’t throw enough, don’t play in the yard, they are coddled and spoiled, they’re not tough enough, etc. It’s been said in threads about coaches sometimes abusing good pitchers in order to win games and championships. It’s been said the game is becoming too technical and we should keep things simple. It’s been said that good players get overlooked in favor of those who fit the MLB mold.

It goes on and on about how the players from the good old days were tougher and better than today’s player. That the game has changed for the worse and we long for the return of the good old days.

Maybe we really do need to compare today’s game to the old days in every possible way.

I will start by saying I remember my grand father complaining constantly when I was a young boy about how bad the players were compared to way back when he played. Oddly enough those he was complaining about were my heros and the same players many of us now think are so much better and tougher than the players today.

My grand father would cuss about every little mistake players made during the Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, Yogi Berra, Micky Mantle, era. He would constantly bring up Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Christy Mathewson, etc. and tell me these players today are spoiled, they stink and don’t play the game like they used to. They can’t do the simple things!... Then we would argue like crazy… Sound familiar? Big Grin

Makes you wonder if some of these young kids today will grow old and compare the players 40-50 years from now to those they grew up watching.

My bet is some in fact will be saying the same things we say… Things like these kids are coddled, not tough enough, can’t do the little things, don’t throw enough, don’t play enough, coaches are bad, I remember how we used to do it, etc. etc.

I don’t want to pick on anyone, but do realize everyone has a different point of view on this subject. For example, in another thread it was said the game is now populated with .250 hitters. Well… that is a very true statement. However it was made in a topic relating to players of today vrs. the players of years ago. I think the game has always been populated with .250 hitters (at least in my life time)

Guess my take is… Maybe kids don’t play as many pick up games or play catch like they used to. However, now days the better players are playing over 100 “real” games a year against the best possible competition and working out much more than I did when young.

The better players aren’t in the yard playing catch with their neighbors because they’re practicing or playing with their team for hours every day. The better players today will end up with a thousand more “real” at bats than I did as a young player. Many will receive much better coaching and instruction than I did. The big question might be… Will they have more fun than I did?

To me the bottom line is this. Complaining about today’s players and the game itself seems to be one of the old traditions of baseball. I think it has gone on for ever and will continue into the future.

As my grandpa used to say “The games going to hell”! He would be turning over in his grave if he knew about the game now!

Maybe the game changes like everything else, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s changing for the worse. The history of the game includes high and low points from the beginning until now and surely things will continue to change in the future.

What do you think?
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I think that as an East Cobb summer team player i wont have the same amount of "fun" as you did back then. Maybe its just me but playing, playing great, and winning is fun. I can't stand not playing. I just went through 3 weeks of no games and i feel lost sorta lol. I love the tournaments, and championship games. To me thats more fun than i would ever have had on a rec summer team or a team that wasnt as competitive as an East Cobb team.
"Why certainly I'd like to have that fellow who hits a home run every time at bat, who strikes out every opposing batter when he's pitching, who throws strikes to any base or the plate when he's playing outfield and who's always thinking about two innings ahead just what he'll do to baffle the other team. Any manager would want a guy like that playing for him. The only trouble is to get him to put down his cup of beer and come down out of the stands and do those things."
--Danny Murtaugh, manager
--Various
I think a big factor in this perception of old days being better than these days is that 'life' itself has changed and those of us who grew up in the 70's and earlier look at the kids today, with their computer games, overindulgent parents, service-industry lifestyles as perhaps a little 'weak'.

When I was young, we were outdoors from 0800 to about 2100 with a break for lunch, one for dinner, and a couple for slurps on the hose. Kids just don't do that today, so I do believe many kids today are 'softer' both physically and mentally than days of yore.

How this translates into baseball is fairly obvious at the youth level.....and in the upper echelons I believe it translates into the "I want mine and screw everyone else" philosophy.
This one seems easy to me. More better baseball is being played by more players at every level than ever before. The best players of any era probably would be among the best players of any other era. What is better is the average and this is because of coaching, training, facilities and numbers of great athletes playing.
The one aspect of modern-day baseball that lacks from days gone by is longevity of a player staying on ONE TEAM for a more than a couple of seasons. How can fans support one team when players become free-agents and follow the monetary system of "get all I can get" philosophy vs loyality to a city and it's fans. There is no loyality or longevity to fans so how can we expect fans to be loyal to players and home teams?

I have posted my feelings of what I think in scout forum in Drabek thread at PG messageboard and it is along the same lines as Grandpa Ford, my hero after reading Jerry's post.

Baseball is a game of adjustments, just like life. Roll with the changes and conform to the system as it is because it is what it is.

If you have passion for the game of baseball, you can get out of the past and live in the present.

Press forward and strive for the prize each day you wake up. Eventually, you'll achieve your goal against "all odds".

Blessings,
SHEP
Last edited by Shepster
.

Pg...

I'll take a shot at this...

While working with many young athletes for a long time...I too belive that they have changed...but I don't want to rehash covered ground...

I'll throw this out...

maybe it's not the atheltes, but a perception change...

Perhaps the only athletes we remember from 30 years ago are the stars, we forget all the "little edwards"...and retain in our memories all the memorable athletes...

...while today we see the full cross section. The good, the bad, the ugly. And we see them in real time, up front and personal.

Cool 44
My personal observation is that today's elite players are light years ahead of the top players from days gone by.

But the average recreational player is much further behind his counterpart from decades ago.

The driven players have better training and are more devoted to a single sport today. Decades ago, the best athletes played football in the fall and basketball in the winter, then turned to baseball come springtime. Today's best focus on baseball and work at the techniques to excel.

But the average neighborhood kid isn't doing this, and isn't playing out in the street every day like the kid from years back. He plays s****r or Ninetendo to pass his summer hours.

The gap between the elite players and the average recreational player has made life difficult for Little Leagues everywhere. The best players head to travel teams to seek out real competition. The shrinking numbers left behind to play at the Little League diamond often look hapless. I can't believe how many kids I see at the Little League up the street, even 12 and older, who still can't catch a pop up, or throw the ball across the Little League diamond (less than 90') on the fly.

But last week I watched both semifinal games of our high school district tournament. Each of the four teams had a pitcher who had more out there than anything I saw in my years as a D-1 player 25 years ago.

One of those pitchers is a senior heading to VMI, suddenly a winning program. Two of them are juniors with "handshake deals" with UVA. The fourth is just a sophomore, but PG already knows him pretty well. Fastballs were running 89-92 all night with some pretty good breaking stuff on display as well.

I don't know what amazed me more: That there was so much quality pitching in one place at the high school level, or that the batters could actually HIT against them. If any one of these pitchers could go back in time to pitch against my high school team, I dare say he could throw 63 fastballs down the middle and call it a night.

On my high school team, we had a guy hit over .500. Every team seemed to have at least one guy do that.

Two years ago, a local school had a kid hit .478. He went in the first round to the Twins and got a seven-figure signing bonus. He's now 20 years old and doing well in AA.

Show me a kid hitting over .500 around here and I'll show you a team with a "homer" keeping the scorebook and stats, counting ROE's and FC's as hits, etc.

In summary, I guess if you think kids today can't hold a candle to those from the golden days of yore, it depends on which kids from today you're talking about. There sure is no lack of talent at the high end.
The beauty is that baseball is a game that you will have this discussion about forever. I believe the players today are vastly better than those from the past. State-of-the-art training on a year-round basis, opportunity like never before to play high level, competitive baseball, and the use of today's technology to teach and learn are just a few things to support my position.

But kids still play Little League. They still play catch. They still dream of playing in the majors. They still want to grow up and be Derek Jeter, or Roy Oswalt, or Albert Pujols. They have the chance to make their dream come true through love of the game and hard work. These components never change through the years.

Baseball today will soon become baseball yesterday and we will be looking back and hearing ourselves talk of how the Jeters, the Oswalts and the Pujols of the past were better than what we are seeing years from now...

That's baseball.
Last edited by Baseballdad1228
Life in general was tougher back then. Long train rides, double headers, medical care, no information at their finger tips, having to hold a job in the off season.
I stop every now and then and wonder for a moment, how we survived without cell phones, air conditioning (home/car), computers, fast food. Then I look at pictures of my grandparents and think about life without running water, cars, color tv, phones, and many other luxuries that have past them by back then. How did they survive some of the winters without snow blowers, plows and heat, storm windows.

Yes, times have changed, players have changed, were they tougher? I think they met the challeges of the day. Todays players have to do the same. Flights, financial planning, the press, year round training, more players trying to take your job....It's all relative to the time we live...
Coach Merc,

Had this discussion yesterday with some old buddies I grew up with. Kind of funny when we talked about no air conditioning, Coal burning furnaces, TVs that required constant tuning if you were lucky enough to have one, how big a deal the transistor radio was, etc.

One friend told me none of his 4 grandparents ever drove a car. Now days... Can you even buy a car without air conditioning? And if you could... Would you?

No doubt conditions were tougher, but were human beings tougher because of it? Wonder what it will be like 50 years from now?
I think when comparing kids abilities from "days gone by" you also have to factor in geography. In WI for instance the Little League and High School abilities have increases X fold. In the 80's and 90's you heard of very few players going on to play baseball beyond HS and even the Big 10 team from Madison dropped the sport. Now the D3 WIAC conference is one of the best in the country and every year multiple HS kids leave the State to play for very competitive D1 schools. I don't know and maybe PG could comment on his thoughts that the talent out of Northern States has improved over the last 10 years.
Last edited by rz1
Well, there are just more people now, to begin with. So there are more kids playing.

I agree with this by MidloDad :

[My personal observation is that today's elite players are light years ahead of the top players from days gone by. But the average recreational player is much further behind his counterpart from decades ago.]

I can say this about baseball at the youth level: My sons could kick my butt if we compare what my friends and I could do on the ballfield back in the 60s with what they are doing/have done. There is no comparison – knowledge of the game, situational hitting, pitching ability, hitting ability, overall level of playing ability.

Elite Players? We didn’t have any, they played LL and then BR and the ‘good’ players were all solidly average or a little better. Some were better than others, but nothing like what you see on some of today’s travel teams. Could they have become better? Yes. But we all just played in-town, playing for some kindly dads or other townie guys who volunteered their time and coached. Looking back, they weren’t all that good at coaching baseball. They knew enough to get by, and did what they could, but they were there more as good community role models, and at this they generally excelled.

Where we even out the bell curve is with the average youth player. I have seen many, many kids today getting dropped off to play baseball because it is just the next thing you do after basketball is over, and before s****r starts again, and jr could use some exercise, see you after the game . . . . Some of these kids don’t want to be there, they can’t play, they know it, and no amount of coaching gets through to them because they just aren’t into it. They are completely overmatched and intimidated by the ‘elite’ players who are frustrated by the level of play and are going beyond the local scene seeking out the best teams and playing very good ball and taking it well beyond what we did as kids. It’s an avenue we just didn’t have.

As I remember it, a kid in my day didn’t play unless he really wanted to. They were into Boy Scouts, or they played basketball or took piano or sax lessons, were on the chess team or whatever and if they didn’t want to play baseball, or felt they weren’t good enough, the parents usually let them slide since they were pursuing their own thing, even if it was just running around out in the woods playing hide-and-seek.

Those of us average kids who loved baseball would play all the time, in the fields near our house in pickup games, 3 on 3 or however we could work it out. We threw a lot, we played a lot. But I don’t think we knew enough to take it to the next level and really excel, there wasn’t really anyone to show us how. So we were solidly average.

All this boils down to this: I’m continually as impressed and awed when I watch my son play now as I would have been had I been able to watch him through my youth age eyes.
Last edited by dad10
rz1,

Baseball in the north is much better than it used to be. At least in regards to the talented kids getting opportunities. Just 14 years ago when we started PG you would hardly ever see a kid from Iowa get drafted in the first 20 rounds. Since we started the Wood Bat Leagues and started getting the best Iowa kids seen on a national stage things have really opened up. Every Iowa player, but one 50th round pick, in the past 14 years has come directly out of the PG Leagues. A large number of those have been in the first few rounds. In the past, hardly ever would you see an Iowa player leaving the state to play DI college baseball. Just in the past few years we’ve had Iowa high school players getting recruited and/or doing very well at Baylor, Notre Dame, LSU, Wichita State, Nebraska, Georgia Tech, Stanford, Southern Cal, Oklahoma, etc. This is for two reasons… 1 – Much more exposure to scouts and college coaches around the country and in the area. 2 – A chance to play with and against the very best competition possible.

As you know Randy, the same thing has been happening in the state of Wisconsin. Much of this is due to the travel type programs like “The Blazers” who have been sending players and attending our events for several years. They have provided a lot of national type exposure for talented Wisconsin players. Jason Jaramillo, Eric Cordier, Tony Butler, Ryan Zink, Tony Harper, and many many others. Wisconsin players are now being recruited at the top college programs all over the nation.

Competition is what makes players improve and have better ability. Exposure is what helps everyone know about that ability. The two go hand in hand. In Florida, Texas, California, Georgia and other parts of the country you might find high level competition all around you. In states like Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. you have to expand your boundaries to find the very best competition possible. Those that do that, receive the most opportunities in most cases.

So yes, I agree with the ability among the most talented improving in our part of the country and the opportunities are improving as well. I see the same thing happening in the Northeast, though I don’t think they were as far behind as the upper Midwest. It’s also great to see the reemergence of talent in the Chicago area as well as the rest of Illinois. And when I watch a pitcher like Mike Bowden or Ryan Zink or Jeremy Hellickson pitch I just don’t see any lack of toughness! When I see Jeff Clement or Brad Nelson or Drew Davidson play I don’t see any lack of toughness. When I see Derek Jeter, Curt Schilling, or Johnny Daman play I don’t see anyway they could be any tougher.
I think there are a lot of aspects to "toughness". On the field, there have players in all generations who played hard all game, every game.

The players today work harder on their bodies because they have the facilities, the nutritional research, and the time to do so.

The players in previous generations, however, played doubleheaders in wool unis, had seat-of-the-pants injury care, questionable diets, rode trains and buses between games, money worries and off-season jobs. That we have heroes who dealt with all that and still gave us great on-field memories is testimony to their toughness.

And if that was still the life of a Major Leaguer, how many of the current crop would be playing?
Orlando, I believe nearly all of them would still be playing. The money and amenities of today are astounding, but let's face it, if we were given the chance to play in wool uniforms on a 100 degree afternoon in Chicago, we all would race to the field. If they told you you had to ride a bicycle from Orlando to Chicago and when you got there you could play in the Majors, you'd be planning your trip right now!!! That's what baseball does to you. The game hasn't changed, only the things that go along with it have.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
rz1,

Baseball in the north is much better than it used to be. At least in regards to the talented kids getting opportunities. Just 14 years ago when we started PG you would hardly ever see a kid from Iowa get drafted in the first 20 rounds. Since we started the Wood Bat Leagues and started getting the best Iowa kids seen on a national stage things have really opened up. Every Iowa player, but one 50th round pick, in the past 14 years has come directly out of the PG Leagues. A large number of those have been in the first few rounds. In the past, hardly ever would you see an Iowa player leaving the state to play DI college baseball. Just in the past few years we’ve had Iowa high school players getting recruited and/or doing very well at Baylor, Notre Dame, LSU, Wichita State, Nebraska, Georgia Tech, Stanford, Southern Cal, Oklahoma, etc. This is for two reasons… 1 – Much more exposure to scouts and college coaches around the country and in the area. 2 – A chance to play with and against the very best competition possible.

As you know Randy, the same thing has been happening in the state of Wisconsin. Much of this is due to the travel type programs like “The Blazers” who have been sending players and attending our events for several years. They have provided a lot of national type exposure for talented Wisconsin players. Jason Jaramillo, Eric Cordier, Tony Butler, Ryan Zink, Tony Harper, and many many others. Wisconsin players are now being recruited at the top college programs all over the nation.

Competition is what makes players improve and have better ability. Exposure is what helps everyone know about that ability. The two go hand in hand. In Florida, Texas, California, Georgia and other parts of the country you might find high level competition all around you. In states like Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. you have to expand your boundaries to find the very best competition possible. Those that do that, receive the most opportunities in most cases.

So yes, I agree with the ability among the most talented improving in our part of the country and the opportunities are improving as well. I see the same thing happening in the Northeast, though I don’t think they were as far behind as the upper Midwest. It’s also great to see the reemergence of talent in the Chicago area as well as the rest of Illinois. And when I watch a pitcher like Mike Bowden or Ryan Zink or Jeremy Hellickson pitch I just don’t see any lack of toughness! When I see Jeff Clement or Brad Nelson or Drew Davidson play I don’t see any lack of toughness. When I see Derek Jeter, Curt Schilling, or Johnny Daman play I don’t see anyway they could be any tougher.


Great Post
I can speak to this from my experience only:

The high school teams I played on and the teams I've coached have had about the same success; pretty good teams; though we've never won the big enchilada... I can say without hesitation my team of today would beat the teams I played on 8 or 9 times in a 10 game series.

For college, I watch my old college team play a lot; without a doubt the team of now would beat the living daylights out my teams (1980 grad).

So from my experience... they are simply better now than they were 25-30 years ago.

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