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What is a "No Hitter"

JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
Ervin Santanna pitched a no hitter today in which he allowed a run to score.

I seem to recall that MLB did not recognize a game as a "no-hitter" if no hits were allowed but a run scored. A search of the OBR led me to the conclusion that they must've changed that (stupid) rule at some point in the fairly recent past.

I remember Curt Young throwing a game in which he didn't allow a hit, but gave up a run for the Red Sox in the late 80's or early 90's and being credited with a "No Hitter" only to have the "No Hitter" taken away when the rule changed. Has it been re-instated?

Is it now possible to throw an 8 inning game as a visiting team starter, give up a run without a hit, lose the game and still be credited with a no hitter?

What about a rained shortened game? Is that a no hitter now as well? I couldn't find a reference in OBR to the term "No Hitter". Am I missing the definition or is it stated elsewhere?

The "No Hitter" stat is a nice thing for the resume' but otherwise meaningless other than the signed ball the pitcher has displayed in the Hall of Fame at Cooperstown in the "No Hitter" display. A very cool thing to see if you ever happen to pass by Cooperstown, NY.
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R RPD100+ posts
From the MLB website; "MLB OFFICIAL INFO":

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/officia...ules_regulations.jsp

"An official no-hit game occurs when a pitcher (or pitchers) allows no hits during the entire course of a game, which consists of at least nine innings. In a no-hit game, a batter may reach base via a walk, an error, a hit by pitch, a passed ball or wild pitch on strike three, or catcher's interference."

"An official perfect game occurs when a pitcher (or pitchers) retires each batter on the opposing team during the entire course of a game, which consists of at least nine innings. In a perfect game, no batter reaches any base during the course of the game."
Last edited by RPD
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
RPD - Thanks for the reference. I was looking through OBR and couldn't find a reference. I didn't know about this link and the additional information here. This explains the statistic "Hold" as well, which isn't in OBR.

Luv Baseball - I think there have been several cases where no hitters / perfect games have gone into extra innings only to be lost. I seem to recall Pedro Martinez having this happen when he was with the Expos years ago.

Kind of suprising they'd give old Harvey credit for a perfect game when he obviously allowed a baserunner (even though it was the 13th inning).

Know that I think about it, Curt Young's was in a road game so he would've only thrown 8 innings as a visitor, which might explain why he didn't get credit for the no-no.

Thanks!
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
There has never been a rule where a pitcher was not given credit for a no hitter if a run scored. The no hitters that were taken off the books were the ones that were rain shortened 5 innings games and such. The Haddix game was never truly listed as a perfect "game" but has always been listed in the record books because it was the longest stretch of perfection in one game. For a long time, a game Ernie shore pitched in the late teens was listed as a perfect game even though he didn't start the game. Babe Ruth walked the first batter on 4 pitches, and was ejected from the game for arguing the calls. Shore came in with virtually no warmups and the baserunner was immediately thrown out stealing. Shore then proceeded to retire the next 26 batters in a row. This game is no longer considered a perfect game but is sometimes mentioned in stories about perfection because of the unusual circumstances.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
Three Bagger - Thanks, I can't vouch for my memory any more...

I do recall (I think) that some no-hitters were "undone". Maybe it was the rain shortened games and the 8 inning visitor games where the run scored preventing the starter from going the requisite 9 innings.

The Curt Young game (again I think) was originally called a no hitter and then changed later. Bottom line the guy pitched a complete game in a game that didn't end early. He didn't allow a hit and doesn't have credit for a no hitter. He did allow a run and the home team won without batting in the 9th and he was the visiting pitcher, so he only threw 8 innings.

Bottom line, I'm happy for Santana... Throwing a no hitter is a great accomplishment.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by luv baseball:
JMOFF- I think it would be a no hitter even if you lose.

Harvey Haddix once threw 12 perfect innings and then gave up a run in the 13th and had a L hung on him but got credit for a perfect game. The obvious irony is it might be the greatest game ever pitched and the dude lost.


Due to the 1991 rule change Haddix is not credited with a perfect game....it is officially credited as a 12 and 2/3-inning, one-hit complete game....

In 1991 the rules committee defined a no-hit game as one which ends after 9 or more innings with one team failing to get a hit. This removed 50 games from the list that had previously been considered no-no's‚ mostly shortened games‚ but also including Harvey Haddix's 12 perfect innings against the Braves in 1959 and Jim Maloney' 1965 1-0 loss in 11-innings

But without a doubt....the greatest game ever pitched
Last edited by piaa_ump
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
I guess they decided you couldn't call it a perfect "game" since someone did reach base during the course of the game. The most amazing thing about it is that he did it against the hard hitting Milwaukee Braves who had Henry Aaron, Eddie Mathews, and Joe Adcock all in their prime. Coming into the game, Aaron was hitting .453 and Johnny Logan .338 and it was already May 26th. Mathews was leading the league with 14 HRs and Aaron had 13. The Braves were in first place at the time too.

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