What is more important? Select or High School teams?

A large majority of H.S. coaches who (understand select baseball) will encourage thier players to play! H.S.coaches that don't encourage select either don't know enough about it or feel they can do a better job? If this is the case I would procede with caution!

A legitimate select program compliments HS baseball -- it doesn't compete with it. Since they don't generally play at the same time, there is (or should be) little direct competition. Over the past several years, I am familiar with only one kid that skipped HS baseball in lieu of preparing for the next level and that kid was already considered a pro prospect. Good select coaches are not threatened by HS baseball and HS coaches need to feel less threatened by select. Select and high school teams compete in the summer, when HS coaches feel that their teams need to include their best players....regardless of the best situation for the kids. I understand some HS coaches compare 16U select baseball to JV ball, insisting their sophomores compete in 18U leagues. This can be a double-edged sword, robbing kids of great opportunities in the summer while failing to accomplish developmental goals.

It sounds like I'm promoting select over HS baseball....but I LOVE HS baseball! I just think there are ways for the two to coexist. From my limited experience, AAU basketball and select sokker become about personalities. In those cases, parents should ask themselves, "who has the most to gain?" In many cases, the private/paid coaches have the most to gain.

Is it spring yet?

This looks a little like a bait topic, but I haven't seen what you describe too much in DFW. Every select program I know of waits until May, well after the HS season is over to start their workouts, tournaments, etc. For those boys who make the HS playoffs, the select waits for them to be eliminated, then works them right into the mix.

Most HS summer programs are run by dad volunteers. The players that aren't playing select have the opportunity to play on their HS summer teams, or they play on both if possible. Same in the fall--HS teams typically play on Saturdays in the fall and the select teams play on Sundays.

I really haven't seen the conflict you desribe that much in baseball.

well said PD...more detailed than my opinion...

We're on the same page nortexbaseball. Although something can be said for team unity that comes from kids from the same schoool playing togeher year-round, it probably limits development to a larger degree (not just the best players). A 2nd team kid may grow more on a team where he can start or play multiple positions.

In our area, Northeast, HS rules do not permit players to so much as even work out with ANY TEAM outside of the HS---it works real well since we have no conflict--in addition HS coaches have limitations, they vary, as to how many of their HS players they can have on a team if they coach a summer team ---this even applies in showcases

TRhit,

In Texas, a HS coach cannot coach his kids in the summer (other than his son). I think that is a good rule. Do you find that most of the best players work out with private instructors until spring? I think that situation should be viewed differently by HS coaches....but I understand there may be times when teaching philosophies differ.

-PD

TRhit, not to be rude but, since you cant relate or answer the topic maybe you should abstain from reply. Down her where we dominate conn. teams our H.S. coaches are not allowed to coach any of thier players during the off-season. think about it!

quote:

TRhit, not to be rude but

Yeah maybe I am!!!

quote:

Originally posted by tychco:
This looks a little like a bait topic, but I haven't seen what you describe too much in DFW. Every select program I know of waits until May, well after the HS season is over to start their workouts, tournaments, etc. For those boys who make the HS playoffs, the select waits for them to be eliminated, then works them right into the mix.

Most HS summer programs are run by dad volunteers. The players that aren't playing select have the opportunity to play on their HS summer teams, or they play on both if possible. Same in the fall--HS teams typically play on Saturdays in the fall and the select teams play on Sundays.

I really haven't seen the conflict you desribe that much in baseball.

Not trying to bait anyone, please don't misunderstand the thread. Comments I heard were from HS coach that was concerned about overuse and trying to keep his players together playing HS summer leagues. I know his biggest concern was too many innings for pitching staff.

quote:

Originally posted by Out in the sticks:
Not trying to bait anyone, please don't misunderstand the thread. Comments I heard were from HS coach that was concerned about overuse and trying to keep his players together playing HS summer leagues. I know his biggest concern was too many innings for pitching staff.

Understood, but I have seen this type of question asked and then there begins a bashing of one or more select programs. No problems.

nortex


Sorry to see that you are not feeling well today !!!

I have never heard of a Texas high school football coach being concerned about his baseball teams pitchers being overused in the summer.

They are concerned about them being ready for two-a-days in August.

And, I can assure you that football does not conflict with baseball in Texas.

By rule.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
I have never heard of a Texas high school football coach being concerned about his baseball teams pitchers being overused in the summer.

They are concerned about them being ready for two-a-days in August.

And, I can assure you that football does not conflict with baseball in Texas.

By rule.

Football coaches now want skill kids to do 7 on 7 during the summer. They start as soon as school is out, some start as early as Memorial Day weekend.
There was also a situation at 4A Whitehouse this year with their QB and two other varsity players with summer baseball. If I remember correctly they missed the first week of two-a-days due to national tournament their team had advanced in. Football HC was very upset, even had statements published in Tyler paper.

quote:

If I remember correctly they missed the first week of two-a-days due to national tournament their team had advanced in. Football HC was very upset, even had statements published in Tyler paper.

That would be a no no that only a senior returning QB could get away with, probably not completely, but live to tell about it, anyway.

Out in the sticks,
Any high school coach who is worried about overuse in the summer is grasping at straws. I would be more worried about overuse at the High School than from most summer coaches I know.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:

quote:

If I remember correctly they missed the first week of two-a-days due to national tournament their team had advanced in. Football HC was very upset, even had statements published in Tyler paper.

That would be a no no that only a senior returning QB could get away with, probably not completely, but live to tell about it, anyway.

Junior QB this year, started as a soph. and threw for 2,068 yards and 15TDs. Heck of a pitcher.

Interesting question, Select vs. HS baseball?

There are several levels that one could answer this question on:
1) Which will provide the best avenue for the baseball player to get to the next level?

In this regard I agree with PD, they should be in harmony and work together to advance the players baseball goals. I haven't seen much conflict between the two except for a little bit in the Fall. This Fall was an example of that and it might have lead to some over use. As for getting the player to the next level, I give the edge to Select baseball 60/40 because more college scouts will see the players in the summer and at showcases.

2) Which will provide the best situations from which to learn lives lessons?

Most players in any sport won't get to the next level. In baseball there are over 450,000 HS baseball players and of those only about 26,000 get to play on the college level, roughly 5.7%. So in my opinion this side of the question might be more important. In Texas many of these boys get to work on there baseball skills all during the school year, they learn that consist work pays off. That being available and having the right attitude can give you an edge over an equal / peer. That earning trust from your peers and coaches requires effort. Commitment is highlighted. Unfortunately, they will also see the example that some times talent can and does get away with many sins at times and conversely that equal or slightly better talent doesn't mean you get an equal chance on the field. Working together to win a District Championship or advancing deep into the playoffs or even winning a State Championship wins hand down in life’s memories and in developing some core believes. But overall Select does offer some of the same lessons and even strengthens / highlights them. However, overall all I would weight this one 70 /30 in favor of HS over Select but both play a part in a young man's development.

3) Over use: I think this is more of a question for pitchers / about pitchers than an overall Select vs. HS importance question.

In Texas we have an over use problem period. Both Select and HS carry an equal amount of blame on this front. I do think that more "abuse" might be found in HS but the length of the "summer" season...into December... also counts toward over use. I was shocked when I first learned that 60% to 70% of major league pitchers come from above the Mason/Dixon line. But after I thought about it, it made sense. I was told that scouts think one of the main reasons is over use across the south and CA. Many of our pitchers are pitching 10 or 11 months a year.

I could see how a HS coach would blame Select for this problem because a HS coach makes his living teaching these boys how to play baseball, winning baseball, they get paid and retained to win baseball games and I am sure some of them might think that some of the injuries they see in their pitchers are caused by Select baseball extended use. Our HS coach I think sees it a little different, he looks at Select as a source for developing more pitchers than he could in class or in a baseball season, mound experience is a huge asset. He encourages the boys to play on a Select team and at the highest level possible within Select. But my answer to part of the questions is a 50%/50% split on which is more "important" / "at blame" for overuse in pre-college baseball.

Personally, like most of you on this site, I think my son has a chance to be one of the 5.7% and he really wants to play at the next level. So for him right now I would say that it is a 50/50 split between HS and Select on the importance on getting to the next level. He plays in a great HS system and over the next two seasons the scouts will be there to see 3 of the top 250 2009 players in the country play with him and behind him. The summer team he plays with is already providing for good development and exposure. As for over use, he hasn't thrown a baseball in 30 days and it will be another 30 days before he even starts any limited throwing, he won't get on a mound until late January. The Select team will carry 13 pitchers and I haven't seen this HS coach ever over use a pitcher.

MEATSDAD

Interesting post....were and when did you see the stats on ML pitchers being above the Mason/Dixon line? I Would like to share that with my son.
Also were do you find a list for the top 250 2009 players in the country. What percentage are they from the Mason/Dixon line?

Paw,

The top 250 was a PerfectGame list, I finally broke down and paid the fee.

As for the percentage of major league pitchers from above the MD line, I will have to get back to you tomorrow. I need to double check the source.

I checked the source when I heard the stat so I know it is real, it helped me in the decision to shut-down Meat for an extended period of time.

quote:

Originally posted by iluvgoodbaseball:
Out in the sticks,
Any high school coach who is worried about overuse in the summer is grasping at straws. I would be more worried about overuse at the High School than from most summer coaches I know.

As a high school coach, I agree with this statement. Good HS teams have 3-4 good pitchers, everyone else is lucky to have 1 or 2. Most select teams are loaded with pitching, at least the good ones are.

They can and should co-exist with each other.