What is pitching a bull pen?

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What is a bull pen?

In the past I have asked my son (as a catcher) what different coaches and different pitchers do during a pen? He said it varies from player to player --- coach to coach --- and changes depending on where you are in-season or pre-season. A "bullpen" is basically the time allotted by the coach for his pitchers to "practice". It could be as simple as throwing a set number of pitches as part of their recovery process, it is also used in pre-season to condition his arm, it could be used to correct a flaw in his pitching motion or he might be working on another pitch. Asking "what should they be doing” is like asking "how do you coach?". You want to know if it's OK to throw a "pen" the day before he pitches. Basically the answer is no. You wouldn't want the starting pitcher to throw a long bullpen the day before he starts but you might want your closer to throw a short pen the day before he pitches. The bullpen is just one small piece of the pitcher's routine. I think successful pitching coaches use the bullpen along with light weights, sprints, distance running long toss and a variety of other exercise and conditioning routines (very detailed) to maximize the development of their pitchers.
Fungo

Just one thought Fungo...I'm pretty sure Leo Mazzone is a proponent of a bullpen the day before a start. I believe he has pitchers do a bullpen at about 70% of max effort, just to work on feel for the pitches. So, it might not be an absolute no regarding bullpens the day before a start.

i agree fully with the posts above me but what i do as a pitcher is about 2 days before a start i throw lightly then the day before i'll get on a mound and throw about 5 of every pitch jus to get a feel for how my arm is and my pitches.

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Just one thought Fungo...I'm pretty sure Leo Mazzone is a proponent of a bullpen the day before a start. I believe he has pitchers do a bullpen at about 70% of max effort, just to work on feel for the pitches. So, it might not be an absolute no regarding bullpens the day before a start.

Seems kinda of weird to throw a bullpen at about 70% if you're not going to throw at about 70% in a game. Sounds like you're only getting a feel for the pitches at 70%. I don't see much "game value" use in that.

I know you're just quoting what someone else reccomends. It just seems silly to practice it one way and then expect to do it entirely differently with a high success rate the next.

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Originally posted by gimages:
My son is pitching this year. He says at practice once in a while the coach has him throw a bull pen. What is a bull pen? How many pitches should he be throwing? Is it ok to do a bull pen the day before he pitches? Can anyone give me a details (there must be some type of regimient to follow) of a bull pen? Son just started throwing with a catcher without any instruction from coach. Just wanted to give him some advice as I have no idea of what a bull pen is.

I use bullpens to...

1. Work on particular pitches.
2. Work on hitting spots.
3. Pitch simulated innings.

The idea is to work on pitching-specific stuff rather than just general throwing.

[/QUOTE]Seems kinda of weird to throw a bullpen at about 70% if you're not going to throw at about 70% in a game. Sounds like you're only getting a feel for the pitches at 70%. I don't see much "game value" use in that.

I know you're just quoting what someone else reccomends. It just seems silly to practice it one way and then expect to do it entirely differently with a high success rate the next.[/QUOTE]

The original question was specific in asking about throwing a bullpen the day before a start. You certainly don't want a kid throwing a bullpen at 100% the day before a start. So you have two choices, have the kid do nothing, or have the kid throw a light bullpen at something less than 100%. Which do you think makes the kid better? I think Mazzone's point is that you can work on mechanics, location, release point, spinning breaking balls, etc. in a less than 100% atmosphere.

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:

Seems kinda of weird to throw a bullpen at about 70% if you're not going to throw at about 70% in a game. Sounds like you're only getting a feel for the pitches at 70%. I don't see much "game value" use in that.

I know you're just quoting what someone else reccomends. It just seems silly to practice it one way and then expect to do it entirely differently with a high success rate the next.[/QUOTE]

The original question was specific in asking about throwing a bullpen the day before a start. You certainly don't want a kid throwing a bullpen at 100% the day before a start. So you have two choices, have the kid do nothing, or have the kid throw a light bullpen at something less than 100%. Which do you think makes the kid better? I think Mazzone's point is that you can work on mechanics, location, release point, spinning breaking balls, etc. in a less than 100% atmosphere.[/QUOTE]

Actually the original question wasn't specific to that at all-not even close really. Reading is fundamental. There were actually several questions posed by the original poster and pitching the day before the start wasn't even the first question. The only question regarding the day before a start simply asked if it was "ok" to do. You were actually referring to someone else's response and I was referring to yours.

Now your response gets back to one of his original questions. Is it ok to do the day before or is it not? I doubt my opinion means anything to you as my last name isn't Mazzone and I'm not in "the Hall". Although I believe you could argue the knowledge, or lack thereof, of a couple future Hall of Famers; see Roger Clemens "pitching glove" and Randy Johnson's "Body Blade". Sometimes just because you can "do it" doesn't mean you know how you're doing it or can instruct others....but I digress.

If you were to have a bullpen the day before it should be based more upon "strategery", as Will Ferrell so eloquently put it. I think I made my opinion pretty clear in my first post about how bull pens should be handled. Ultimately it probably depends on the pitcher. Some pitchers have a ton of endurance and wouldn't be affected at all by throwing the day before. Other pitchers have the coach doing everything in his power to keep the pitch count down and get him to the 5th in. Obviously you don't want to overwork this type of pitcher the day before a start and I never suggested that you throw 40 or 50 pitches which would obviously be excessive. I will still hold fast to the idea that throwing at 70% is not the same as throwing at 85-90%. Unless that kid is going to throw at 70% in the game there is no reason to practice that way IMHO.

I agree w/ Painguy in that you should work on "pitching" rather than throwing and I believe you eluded to that, however if a kid is having problems spinning his breaking ball having him practice it different from how he's doing it in the game is a waste of time-especially the day before.

Quality > Quanity, I wouldn't do it

[/QUOTE]Actually the original question wasn't specific to that at all-not even close really. Reading is fundamental. There were actually several questions posed by the original poster and pitching the day before the start wasn't even the first question. The only question regarding the day before a start simply asked if it was "ok" to do. You were actually referring to someone else's response and I was referring to yours.

Now your response gets back to one of his original questions. Is it ok to do the day before or is it not? I doubt my opinion means anything to you as my last name isn't Mazzone and I'm not in "the Hall". Although I believe you could argue the knowledge, or lack thereof, of a couple future Hall of Famers; see Roger Clemens "pitching glove" and Randy Johnson's "Body Blade". Sometimes just because you can "do it" doesn't mean you know how you're doing it or can instruct others....but I digress.

If you were to have a bullpen the day before it should be based more upon "strategery", as Will Ferrell so eloquently put it. I think I made my opinion pretty clear in my first post about how bull pens should be handled. Ultimately it probably depends on the pitcher. Some pitchers have a ton of endurance and wouldn't be affected at all by throwing the day before. Other pitchers have the coach doing everything in his power to keep the pitch count down and get him to the 5th in. Obviously you don't want to overwork this type of pitcher the day before a start and I never suggested that you throw 40 or 50 pitches which would obviously be excessive. I will still hold fast to the idea that throwing at 70% is not the same as throwing at 85-90%. Unless that kid is going to throw at 70% in the game there is no reason to practice that way IMHO.

I agree w/ Painguy in that you should work on "pitching" rather than throwing and I believe you eluded to that, however if a kid is having problems spinning his breaking ball having him practice it different from how he's doing it in the game is a waste of time-especially the day before.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the original question did ask specifically "Is it ok to do a bull pen the day before he pitches?" And my response was specifically to that part of the post. I thought that was pretty clear. All I was doing was presenting a different side of the argument and playing devil's advocate.

I don't really care what your last name is, an opinion is an opinion whether your name is Leo Mazzone or Jack Smith. I was simply saying that there are people (some of them very prominent pitching coaches) who see no problem with throwing bullpens the day before a start. You are right though, it would definitely depend on the player.

If I remember correctly, the thought on the 70% part is that there is a threshold around 70% where the pitcher isn't doing work that would adversely affect him the following day. Basically, throwing at or around 70% would in no way affect the pitcher's endurance or physical capacity the next day, whereas throwing at 85-90% would affect him the next day. As far as spinning the breaking ball, it was nothing about a kid having trouble. The idea is that if a kid can work on putting the spin on the ball, the break will be there at higher velocities.

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:

Actually, the original question did ask specifically "Is it ok to do a bull pen the day before he pitches?" And my response was specifically to that part of the post. I thought that was pretty clear. All I was doing was presenting a different side of the argument and playing devil's advocate.

I don't really care what your last name is, an opinion is an opinion whether your name is Leo Mazzone or Jack Smith. I was simply saying that there are people (some of them very prominent pitching coaches) who see no problem with throwing bullpens the day before a start. You are right though, it would definitely depend on the player.

If I remember correctly, the thought on the 70% part is that there is a threshold around 70% where the pitcher isn't doing work that would adversely affect him the following day. Basically, throwing at or around 70% would in no way affect the pitcher's endurance or physical capacity the next day, whereas throwing at 85-90% would affect him the next day. As far as spinning the breaking ball, it was nothing about a kid having trouble. The idea is that if a kid can work on putting the spin on the ball, the break will be there at higher velocities.

Well, I've been known to split hairs before and I can see that's what I am doing now-lol. When you said "specifically", I understand that as "the only question asked". It tends to be quite difficult to grasp "intentions" of posts. Tone and inflection go quite a long way and get taken for granted if you've never participated in a message board.

Who came up w/ the 70% threshold? Is that backed by any scientific data? Would it apply to any other sports like sprinting or even golf?

I see your point w/ the spinning ball-I would agree that that would be acceptable @ 70%. I guess I have more of a problem with the idea that it would be beneficial for working on location as well. I just fail to see any correlation.

I don't remember who came up with the 70% threshold, so I don't know if it was just a good ole country boy guess or Dr. James Andrews....sorry, I really don't know. I agree that it would seem to me that it would be hard to work on some things at less than game effort, but it isn't my theory. It's just something I brought up to think about. I have also heard (I forget where) that some coaches even have pitchers throw short pens (i.e. 55 feet instead of 60'6") with the idea being that the following start they would have an easier time staying down in the zone. This seems even more counter productive to me since you're actually talking about changing a release point. Thoughts?

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I don't remember who came up with the 70% threshold, so I don't know if it was just a good ole country boy guess or Dr. James Andrews....sorry, I really don't know. I agree that it would seem to me that it would be hard to work on some things at less than game effort, but it isn't my theory. It's just something I brought up to think about. I have also heard (I forget where) that some coaches even have pitchers throw short pens (i.e. 55 feet instead of 60'6") with the idea being that the following start they would have an easier time staying down in the zone. This seems even more counter productive to me since you're actually talking about changing a release point. Thoughts?

My bet is on your "ol country boy" guess-lol It just seems like something that is hard to guage. I think it would again depend on the player.

I also agree that it would be counter productive to throw from a shorter distance. I have heard on more than one occasion (quite a few actually) of D1 colleges doing this as a routine for their pitchers...my question has always been "does that make it right?" Who knows I guess. I don't think I'll ever have my pitchers do that. I would never teach a hitter to hit like Craig Counsel and I wouldn't teach a pitcher to pitch like Dontrelle....but it obviously works for them.

I think the biggest thing is finding the things that work each particular player. I think having a pitcher work on release point from 60'6" would be more beneficial than throwing from 55'.

About the whole "throwing 70%" thing

The skill content of practices has to mimic that of competitive requirements if beneficial training time is to be experienced. It is wrong to practice something with good intent (ie. " hope it will benefit the performance") without being able to justify and demonstrate correlated transfer to a competitive skill. It is wrong to practice pitching if the skill amplitude and rate do not reflect the inteded game-specific qualities.

Arthurt Salter-Hammel, personal communication, October, 1967 = When an arm was extended vertically downward and the index finger slowly traced a 12-inch circle, a pattern of sequential firing of the shoulder muscles was displayed with most muscles assuming a propulsive (agonistic) function at one time and a control (antagonistic) function at another. HOWEVER, when the same circle-tracing was sped-up, the sequence and functions of all the muscles were totally changed despite an observer seeing the "same action" done at a faster velocity.

That also supports how throwing at less than game intensity will not transfer over.


Edited: I wouldn't have them throw the day before a game, because I'd have them throw 2-3 days (depends on the pitcher, Principle of Individuality) before the start, if the pitcher is well conditioned, it'd be well over 100 pitches.

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Originally posted by XFactor:
HOWEVER, when the same circle-tracing was sped-up, the sequence and functions of all the muscles were totally changed despite an observer seeing the "same action" done at a faster velocity. That also supports how throwing at less than game intensity will not transfer over.

You can see this in throwing motions as well.

Completely different muscle groups are used depending on the speed of the throw. For example, in slow speed throws (e.g. dart throws) the Triceps is the primary driver but in higher speed throws the Triceps is flaccid and the energy comes from the torso.

Depending on the velocity of the throw, you are going to see different contributions by the Triceps, the internal rotators of the shoulder, and the large muscles of the torso.

IOW, not every throw is the same.