What is the base award?

I think you're asking the right questions here.

Let's do a little bit of the Socratic method...

I know you've looked at the two potential rules in play here (otherwise your question wouldn't be worded the way it is.) What would be the time of throw on this situation?

Depends if it was a night game or day game.

In the absence of a throw, I believe we are concerned with the time the ball becomes dislodged from F3's glove.   However, I am not convinced I can award the BR third base on this play.  Does the fact that the BR beat F3 to the bag remove the first play by an infielder rule?  If so, perhaps the ball rolling into dead ball territory after contact was made with the bag is considered the second play.

I am awarding runner 3rd base.  For the ball to reach dead ball territory, there had to be some force behind it.  That leads me to believe it was more of a throw than a drop.  

JWC1022 posted:

In the absence of a throw, I believe we are concerned with the time the ball becomes dislodged from F3's glove.   However, I am not convinced I can award the BR third base on this play.  Does the fact that the BR beat F3 to the bag remove the first play by an infielder rule?  If so, perhaps the ball rolling into dead ball territory after contact was made with the bag is considered the second play.

You are correct that the time of the throw is when it it gets dislodged from the glove. A ball can have three statuses: a pitched ball, a batted ball, and a thrown ball...and we know it can't be either of the first two, so that's why this is a throw.

The second part is also true...because BR reached first before the "throw," his position at the time of the throw now governs. Thus, he gets third.

And for the last part, a play is an attempt to retire a runner--anything that happens outside of that is not a play. Thus, the dive to the bag is a play, and the only one in this situation.

Thanks again Matt.  Makes sense to me now. 

Whether the "throw" (and I agree Matt on the categorization) occurred before or after the batter-runner touched first base is irrelevant.

The base running award of two bases when the first throw by an infielder goes out of play is based on runner's position at time of pitch.

There was only one throw on this play, and this was it. That makes it the first one.

It's not all that unusual the time of errant first throws to be after the batter runner reaches first base. It often happens after clumsy attempts to field bunts or when infielders panic after muffing a grounder.

Put him on second.

Don't worry, you will never see that again.  =-)

Swampboy posted:

Whether the "throw" (and I agree Matt on the categorization) occurred before or after the batter-runner touched first base is irrelevant.

The base running award of two bases when the first throw by an infielder goes out of play is based on runner's position at time of pitch.

There was only one throw on this play, and this was it. That makes it the first one.

It's not all that unusual the time of errant first throws to be after the batter runner reaches first base. It often happens after clumsy attempts to field bunts or when infielders panic after muffing a grounder.

Put him on second.

Incorrect.

If the BR and all other runners have advanced a base at the time of the throw, the award is based on their positions at that time. Since there was no other runner (I assume,) then only BR has to reach first before the throw. Thus, the proper award is third.

Matt, 

Can you give me a cite for that? I'm assuming fed rules, but the OP doesn't specify.

Swampboy posted:

Matt, 

Can you give me a cite for that? I'm assuming fed rules, but the OP doesn't specify.

8-3-5 Note. The table in 8-2-9 is incomplete to the point of being misleading sometimes.

Matt,

Just for clarification, 

Lets say a swinging bunt and the third baseman charges the ball and releases the throw to first ,after the runner already safely touches the bag, and the throw is air mailed into the stands the correct call is to award said runner third?  

Gotcha. Thanks.

real green posted:

Matt,

Just for clarification, 

Lets say a swinging bunt and the third baseman charges the ball and releases the throw to first ,after the runner already safely touches the bag, and the throw is air mailed into the stands the correct call is to award said runner third?  

Again, I assume no other runners.

On the first play by an infielder, the award is from time of pitch unless all runners have advanced a base at the time of throw. So, in your example, if F6 throws (releases the ball) before BR reaches first, the award is from the time of pitch and BR gets second. If BR reaches first before the throw is released, the award is from the time of throw, and BR gets third.

Seems like they could have avoided the note and a lot of confusion by just saying it's time of pitch--unless for some bizarre reason they want to award only one base if the batter-runner has reached first but some leading base-clogging runner somehow hasn't reached his next base.

Matt- Are you confident on that? I don't recall hearing anyone say whether or not he made it to first before or after a throw.  I am positive it would be argued if it was.  I was under the impression that since it was the INITIAL play/fielder it was one bag.  I am not saying it is or isnt a rule as I dont know.  Just wondering how confident in your answer you were...

The unusual thing here is the timing of the "throw." In this case, the ball didn't leave F3's control until after the B/R possessed first. Under some of the above hypotheticals, the ball might have sailed out of play after the B/R reached first, but was thrown before he did so.

The correct analogy would be where a fielder picks up a batted ball and eats it because he can't get the runner, then decides to try and pick him off as he rounded first. I this case, the B/R would get two bases from the time of the throw (third base). Same here.

Kevin A posted:

Matt- Are you confident on that? I don't recall hearing anyone say whether or not he made it to first before or after a throw.  I am positive it would be argued if it was.  I was under the impression that since it was the INITIAL play/fielder it was one bag.  I am not saying it is or isnt a rule as I dont know.  Just wondering how confident in your answer you were...

100% confident. I posted the cite above for FED. OBR is 5.06(b)(4) Approved Ruling.

And you are right--it would be argued. I had one two years ago in a collegiate summer game (OBR) that indirectly led to an ejection. R1 and R2, 1 out. Deep bunt between the mound and third, F6 comes up to barehand it but bobbles it. Everyone advances, but F1 wasn't looking at F6 and the return throw ended up dribbling into the 1st-base dugout. Now we have two runs scoring and BR awarded third on what was originally a horrible bunt. Defense argued, they end up giving up five runs and a three-run lead, and the tone was set for the remainder of the game. Ended up having to toss a batter with a case of the ass in the 9th.

Gotcha!  Thanks!

IMHO BR gets 3rd base.