What moves first?

I'm assuming you mean after the stride correct?

I agree with the hands as well because they have to take the bat on a longer trip than what the hips have to go from point A to point B. But the hips are what helps to generate the power the most.

The hands are moving earlier than the shoulders, though that is not what I would call moving forward. The hands/rear arm are bringing the barrel into the off-shoulder position while the hips are opening.

To me, the shoulders don't open until the hands get the barrel to that position. So, I see the hands as the trigger to the shoulder turn.

The forward hand movement and shoulder turn are almost simultaneous. But, I think the hands win in a photo finish.

Are the hands moving or is the elbow/arm slotting? Do the hands have the ability to move on their own? Do those hands leave connection? In watching that video, do those hands change in their relationship to that shoulder? Those hands don't move forward until the shoulder moves. Put your cursor on the front shoulder and note the movement of the shoulder and the hands. I think that this is the point of some of the discussions in another location on the internet where this picture can be found.

quote:

Are the hands moving or is the elbow/arm slotting?

Coach, I agree. I think the difference in "guru camps" is that semantics get in the way. I often feel that they try to find their own way to describe the movement becasue they don't want to agree with the other camp.

I feel it better when thinking about the both the hands moving to the launch point and the elbow rising during stride and then slotting...but with kids still earning (regardless of age..it's the still learning aspect) there is a concern of the hands stopping movement and bat lag kicking in...or, dragging the hands/barrel through the zone. Especially with too many coaches preaching "keep your hands back" without really giving a good example of what the hands should be doing. Gotta be careful from the player's perspective to not bring other coach's cues into the discussion.

In the end, a 45 page thread is 44 1/2 pages of petty argument, and a 1/2 page of good stuff. I guess it keeps us occupied. lol

quote:

Put your cursor on the front shoulder and note the movement of the shoulder and the hands.

Again, I agree. Like I said, photo finish. I gave the nod to the hands because the hands begin the forward rotation a hair earlier than the shoulders

Like you, I use the cursor...but on the knob of the bat. Kind of like a running start...oops, that's someone else's cue. lol

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:

quote:

Put your cursor on the front shoulder and note the movement of the shoulder and the hands.

Again, I agree. Like I said, photo finish. I gave the nod to the hands because the hands begin the forward rotation a hair earlier than the shoulders

Like you, I use the cursor...but on the knob of the bat. Kind of like a running start...oops, that's someone else's cue. lol

Wayback,

Do you see the elbow slotting as what moves the hands or are the hands causing the elbow to slot? Do you see the two as two seperate actions moving independently of each other?

Powertoallfields, then you are saying that the hands have some anatomical ability to tell the arm and elbow what to do? I don't recall the hands having that ability and have the ability to move themselves through time and space without any aid from the arms.



Link to Quote

Then, are you now disagreeing with Yeager when he states to Baseball Prospectus:

BP: It seems through your video that the legs and transferring the energy from the legs seems much, much more important to your style of hitting than do the arms.

CY: It's based on the laws of motion. The energy conserved will be moving the body at greater speed than the arms can catch up with. The body should be moving - in elite hitters - upwards of a hundred miles an hour. The muscles of the arms and the wrists do not have the capacity to create speeds of that nature on their own. They're basically along for the ride. All they must do is relax and allow that energy to be transferred. Any help from the hands, because they can't go that fast, will only slow down the bat speed. If you look at the great hitters - Bonds, Gary Sheffield, Chipper Jones, Hank Aaron, or Ruth - you can see how loose the hands were. They do that a lot with a lot of their pre-swing motion to get the hands actually in a position to where they transfer energy at the very end just like the whip does; they lag behind and then transfer energy ...

I edited this to add:

When a boxer goes into the ring, people talks about "quick hands." Really, what kind of ability do those hands really have. I don't think that they have the ability to generate movement at all with respect to striking that opponent. JMHO!

Coach,

I wasn't saying anything. I was asking Wayback's opinion.

Here is why I ask that question. Stand with your hands stacked on top of each other like they are on a bat with the hands in front of your body and your elbows relaxed at your sides. Now, raise your elbows up and out and then back down to your sides. Note how the hands spin against each other in opposite directions. Now, grab a bat in the same position. Get the bat in your fingers and grip it tightly. Start with your elbows in the up position and actively twist your hands against each other as you did in the above exercise and see what happens to the elbows and the bat. Now do the same thing from the load position in your swing. Keep turning the hands all the way through the swing.

This move does several things. One of which is get you "connected". It also gets the bat moving rearward without losing control of the bat. It also allows you to adjust your top hand to the ball without losing your stretch or connection (on most pitches).

That's what I do and feel now when I swing and has much improved my batspeed, read time and adjustability. I will not, however, say that is the only way to be successful, because, I just don't know what others are doing.

I do know, however, that their is no way anyones hands are just along for the ride in any top level swing. They must be active for the bat to get through the ball. There is simply no way for anyone to get full extension in the direction of the hit without the use of the hands.

Shoulders, arms and elbows all appear to be moving the hands.

Powertoallfields, thanks for the response. I hope you didn't think I was attacking. I was just trying to engage in the converstation going on. It seems as if these last couple of weeks, people are really trying to discuss some of this "stuff" instead of attacks. Count me in on that. I apologize if you thought is might be an attack.

quote:

Do you see the elbow slotting as what moves the hands or are the hands causing the elbow to slot? Do you see the two as two seperate actions moving independently of each other?

Good question. I don't have the answer. That's why, in discussions, I tie the two together.

Moving the hands without moving the arms will result in a "dipped barrel" and a very unathletic swing when the shoulders turn. It's impossible to effectively do.

And, I've seen kids turn like heck, only to drag the barrel through the zone with the front shoulder flying out early.

I've seen kids try to keep the hands back on off-speed and not lower the barrel into the swing plane before turning and end up with chopping down on the ball.

So, I also know those hands have to be active.

Quite honestly, I talk about arms and hands. I expect him to generate an understanding of what we are trying to do, and then develop a feel for it. Eventually, the light bulb goes on. It's nice to hear after an at-bat the self-correction that goes on, which means consistency is closer.

I'll leave the chicken and egg part of this to those who want to engage in that. But, whatever it takes to generate understanding and feeling will work differently from person to person. I'm comfortable where I am on this.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Powertoallfields, thanks for the response. I hope you didn't think I was attacking. I was just trying to engage in the converstation going on. It seems as if these last couple of weeks, people are really trying to discuss some of this "stuff" instead of attacks. Count me in on that. I apologize if you thought is might be an attack.

Coach,

Not seen as an attack at all. Just making my post clearer for you. I know you aren't an attacker. What are your thoughts on what I suggested? You can PM me if you prefer.

Thanks!

quote:

Quite honestly, I talk about arms and hands.

Wayback,

I agree. You can't grip the bat without using your arms and you will not have the "dip" you talk about unless you have loose hands which will make the wrists loose.

As far as getting hitters to FEEL what they are trying to do...I totally agree. However someone can get them to FEEL good mechanics and bad mechanics...the better hitter they will become.

Bluedog, I wasnt' complaining about the discussion here but rather, I was making a statement attempting to bring a point to this site. Bluedog, you are welcome to discuss this, or other stuff here. I enjoyed reading the thoughts here and, as you know, welcome any opportunity to discuss this "stuff" here without the attacks or the claims that I'm biased and so, not fair on this site regarding hitting discussions. Heck, it was fun actually posting a few hitting thoughts here.

Take care!

More "food for thought."

While we're at it, what is everyone else's definition of "the hands?"

Mine = THE HANDS! In saying this, those hands don't have any ability to move themselves. Again, I'll reference the boxer who one might refer to as having "quick hands." However, he doesn't move those hands at all but rather they move because of the kenetic link to the body.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The hands are making this bat stay out of plane....Now, if they're making the bat stay out of plane, then, they're surely putting the bat in plane....

No kinetic anything is doing this....This is hand action...

Please define "hands."

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Please define "hands."

Coach, sorry, but no, I won't....

I see some of the oldtimers on the other site you referred to are sidetracking the discussion with the definition game...I've had that discussion with you about those oldtimers and what I think about them....And, what I think about definition games...

I hope we can stay above that....I would hope that's fair enough with you....

Sure! The reason I asked was that I've discussed things like "hands first, hands last." Kinda vague. However, I've defined that as hands getting set into connection and then leaving connection after some degrees of shoulder rotation depending upon pitch location. Now, I believe that they can't leave except with sequencing of a kenetic chain. Describe that however you might. I was surprised to read Yeager's thoughts. As many of you know, I've not seen Yeager's DVDs and so was ignorant of his "stuff." I believe his thoughts on the hands is very similar to positions I've taken before.

Any thoughts on the Yeager quote from anyone?

I've always used the term "hands" in teaching. However if it were really the hands, the swing would be made somewhere around the top of the shoulder or helmet. The hands are still connected to the wrist bone, the wrist bone connected to the arm bone, ...etc, etc. The hands do take action but only after the shoulders, elbows and arms put them in position to do so.
Are we really having this discussion, it seems rediculous.

Answering the question of which of these two (hands/shoulders) moves first in the org. clip......hands, but that is disreguarding the other 200 parts of the body that move during the swing and the how.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachric:
I've always used the term "hands" in teaching. However if it were really the hands, the swing would be made somewhere around the top of the shoulder or helmet. The hands are still connected to the wrist bone, the wrist bone connected to the arm bone, ...etc, etc. The hands do take action but only after the shoulders, elbows and arms put them in position to do so.
Are we really having this discussion, it seems rediculous.

Coachric,

When you turn on a water faucet, do you use your hands/fingers or do you use your elbow? When you use a screwdriver, do you use your hands/fingers or do you use your elbow? If I take the hands/fingers out of the equation, then I have to use my elbow, forearm and shoulder, but if I use my hands/fingers, I don't need the elbow or shoulder. Do I?

Spectacular.

quote:

Spectacular.

Thanks, Mark....For anyone who isn't sure, Mark is saying I'm an idiot...Hope you fared well for Ike....I hope the hurricanes are over...

Any other thoughts on what I posted?

I'd like to hear 'em....

Ike just missed us-Thanks. You?

As to discussion, if we look up and I say the sky is blue and you say it's green, is there really a point in discussion?

We were good for Ike....Still cleaning up from Gustav....

I meant thoughts from others..

Hey Mark, looks like ya'll might have lost some good posters over at BBF....Sorry to see that....

hands lead shoulders?
sounds silly.

arms hands are along for the ride. ...

if you are being taught to lead/start with your hands, find a new instructor/coach... don't let "him" keep you from reaching your potential!

your window of opportunity is too short in this game...

but, if you are a LHhitter and run a 3.4 to first then maybe that hand thing might be in your best interest...

quote:

arms hands are along for the ride. ...

Diablo, define "along for the ride".

quote:

if you are being taught to lead/start with your hands

Do you not agree the shoulders don't turn until the hands/arm bring the barrel from tilt or vertical to "off shoulder or less vertical (or what ever term to describe it)"?


Furthermore, most advanced players understand how to use the lower body by late high school. Where they often fail is not understanding synchronization of body movements.

Sometimes it may be in synching the lower and upper bodies...or, sometimes it's what the hands/arms doing while "staying back" as the lower body moves forward and goes into rotation. Or, what they do when rotating the barrel forward.

I'm not saying hands act independently (without arms) of other body parts. But, to say they are "along for the ride" is a dangerous cue for someone still learning. No less dangerous than "keep your hands back".