Bill, I know you're torn over this. Your words drip with weariness over the whole situation. I remember this scenario all too well and it seemed hopeless at the time.
I remember my son's Senior year I was over at the visitor's side dugout up on the football bleachers over looking the field. Great view and unfortunately close to the dugout. At the end of each inning the visiting team would come in from the field (losing the game) and all 3 coaches would pick certain players that may have had errors and begin to berate, curse, and chew out the players at the top of their lungs. Me and my friends could NOT believe what we were witnessing. I'm talking about every inning. I was so embarrassed by it that I had to leave.
Needless to say, they were all gone the next year. I'm quite sure that some parent(s), Principal, AD or somebody had seen enough.
It would be nice if a parent COULD go to a coach to offer suggestions and/or advise that he might not possibly see. But as we all know, this is even hard for us during Personal Evaluations at work to hear from our bosses. I personally have appreciated people who gave me advise unwarranted but these were individuals that I was close to and respected highly. It sounds as thought Bill Gates (I cant help but laugh at that name) isn't in that situation at this point. As he said above he has never offered any opinion and/or advise about anything thus the Coach has never even bothered to ask it.
Create a bogus anonymous email name, send him a email about what you think and then delete the account so you wont be tempted to hear what he has to say. And be done with it. LOL.
We are involved with a very similar situation.
I asked myself , If I find out I have 3 months to live what would I do?
My answer, go to the coach (he will listen, give you your time to vent, and like all pro's just continue on with his ways) and let him know your concerns.
Since the AD has been around this for awhile there are some unknown reasons the AD has not done anything. Therefore, I would make sure to go to the principal with my concerns and invite the AD to the meeting.
The player post is awesome. It just goes to show that these kids that love the game are screaming out for help from others when they can not do so themselves without fear of retaliation. Surely there must be a way. Shame on me for not trying to help. If its not ok for one to walk by a parked car with the windows up and someone inside in the heat of the day then it is not ok to sit back and knowingly let abuse happen to kids.
I asked myself , If I find out I have 3 months to live what would I do?
My answer, go to the coach (he will listen, give you your time to vent, and like all pro's just continue on with his ways) and let him know your concerns.
Since the AD has been around this for awhile there are some unknown reasons the AD has not done anything. Therefore, I would make sure to go to the principal with my concerns and invite the AD to the meeting.
The player post is awesome. It just goes to show that these kids that love the game are screaming out for help from others when they can not do so themselves without fear of retaliation. Surely there must be a way. Shame on me for not trying to help. If its not ok for one to walk by a parked car with the windows up and someone inside in the heat of the day then it is not ok to sit back and knowingly let abuse happen to kids.
Here is the reality of the situation. If a coaches job rested on pleasing the parents he is doomed. If you are successful the parents of those that play are happy. the parents of those that do not start are not. There was a story in a local newspaper where a school used an anonymous on line survey as to gather info on coaches. quote in paper
All three coaches were told that the use of parent and student surveys, filed electronically and sometimes anonymously, played a role in their dismissals.
Thats good to know
All three coaches were told that the use of parent and student surveys, filed electronically and sometimes anonymously, played a role in their dismissals.
Thats good to know
Sorry, if I found out that I had 3 months to live the last thing I actually would care about is talking to the coach.
Perhaps in reality many just place too much importance of something that is probably normal, which is that most parents out there not liking their son's HS program.
Someday you all will look back at it and chuckle.
Perhaps in reality many just place too much importance of something that is probably normal, which is that most parents out there not liking their son's HS program.
Someday you all will look back at it and chuckle.
Communication:
Jerry made a great story of the communication between pro scouts and college coaches. Regardless of the player's ability, pro scouts and college coaches look for the complete package.
In our 28 years of International Baseball and the Area Code games, we have a communication with over 10,000 players and parents. 99% of the parents never have made negative comments to our coaches. Maybe the higher level of player = less parent involvement or maybe the coaches [all pro scouts] have the ability to defuse negative comments.
"Baseball teaches life". We all should watch, listen, enjoy and learn.
Someone is watching!
I could talk on this subject 10 minutes or 10 hours, enjoy your Easter.
Bob
Jerry made a great story of the communication between pro scouts and college coaches. Regardless of the player's ability, pro scouts and college coaches look for the complete package.
In our 28 years of International Baseball and the Area Code games, we have a communication with over 10,000 players and parents. 99% of the parents never have made negative comments to our coaches. Maybe the higher level of player = less parent involvement or maybe the coaches [all pro scouts] have the ability to defuse negative comments.
"Baseball teaches life". We all should watch, listen, enjoy and learn.
Someone is watching!
I could talk on this subject 10 minutes or 10 hours, enjoy your Easter.
Bob
Bill: I understand that as your son is closing the door on a HS career that you obviously were involved in (going to games, Booster Club, Projects, etc) it is a sad transition time for you....my best advice would be to do NOTHING FOR AT LEAST A MONTH, maybe more...time has a way of offering perspective and if you feel the same way then, act on it then....you might be surprised how you feel when your son is done with HS, playing summer ball and looking forward to College life.
My 2nd thing woudl be that a wise, wise man once told me the following "I never once regretted taking the high road"
My 3rd thing would be to ask yourself would you feel differently if you hadn't been involved with the booster club, etc? If the anser is yes then you are letting your involvement give you a sense of entitlement.
My 4th and final thing would be to speak to the man himself, not his assistant coach (an earlier poster was right...he absolutely told his head coach)...what message do you want to give your son? Hopefully it's that when you have a problem with someone you go directly to them, not around them....he'll have problems with people his whole life what a great opportunity!
My 2nd thing woudl be that a wise, wise man once told me the following "I never once regretted taking the high road"
My 3rd thing would be to ask yourself would you feel differently if you hadn't been involved with the booster club, etc? If the anser is yes then you are letting your involvement give you a sense of entitlement.
My 4th and final thing would be to speak to the man himself, not his assistant coach (an earlier poster was right...he absolutely told his head coach)...what message do you want to give your son? Hopefully it's that when you have a problem with someone you go directly to them, not around them....he'll have problems with people his whole life what a great opportunity!
Bill Gates,
This has been an intriguing post. There are plenty of disgruntled parents who complain to AD’s. But unlike most, you seem to have your head on straight, your heart in the right place and supporting info to back up your position.
Thank you for being an unconditional supporter of HS sports. Every community needs more like you.
That being said, the interaction with he hitting coach left some doubts in my mind. I’m guessing you wish you could have handled that differently.
There are some great reply posts in this thread.
ASSUMING YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE ISSUE...
I am on the same page with Midlo, BOF, 3Fingered and others. Also, the player comment adds a great perspective. I agree generally with the direction you plan to take by speaking to the AD at the end of the season, just laying out your observations and leaving in his hands.
There are many who suggest you speak directly to the coach. I am usually a big proponent of dealing with issues directly. But this situation is different. If a teacher is speaking abusively to the students and you hear the same from other parents and hear that it has been going on for quite some time, the correct course of action is to bring this to the attention of the principal – not speak directly to the teacher. I think the same applies for you here - speak to the AD.
Some say wait and see if you feel the same way after a while. If there is a legitimate problem, it should be dealt with sooner than later so that another crop of players don’t have to go through the same experience. If you wait until school is out and everyone is gone for the summer, it may be too late for AD to address the issue in time to allow proper transition if necessary. Besides, it sounds like you’ve been sitting on this for a while.
Some say don’t say anything, your son is moving on. I think you are doing the right thing. I have seen this vicious cycle at a few high schools... There is a coach that sucks the life and fun out of a program (I know, the proper definition of “fun” in HS sports can be a whole thread of it’s own). The parents of current players are afraid to say anything as it may jeopardize son’s status. When they get close to graduation, they figure it’s almost over, so they won’t say anything then either. Next crop, same thing. Coach and bad situation perpetuate. (I’m a coach, by the way, and think most are very good
).
NOW, I STILL HAVE A FEW QESTIONS...
You asked your son about the situation and he said he can’t stand the coach. You seem to be good at following through with gathering details. What are the reasons Bill Jr can’t stand him? Why do the ex-players say they couldn’t stand the coaches and couldn’t wait to get out of the program? Why are the kids beat down and why is the dugout like a morgue? Is it just the “more negative feedback than positive”? There doesn’t seem to be much detail with that part of the story.
If you see issues with a 7 year coach and other parents and ex-players have confirmed that they all see the same, surely the AD has already heard about some of these issues. Why do you think there has been no action taken by the AD already?
A question about the hitting coach interaction... You seem to have good open dialog with your son. What does he say about the daily hitting routines and instruction at practices?
Just trying to get more perspective.
This has been an intriguing post. There are plenty of disgruntled parents who complain to AD’s. But unlike most, you seem to have your head on straight, your heart in the right place and supporting info to back up your position.
Thank you for being an unconditional supporter of HS sports. Every community needs more like you.
That being said, the interaction with he hitting coach left some doubts in my mind. I’m guessing you wish you could have handled that differently.
There are some great reply posts in this thread.
ASSUMING YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE ISSUE...
I am on the same page with Midlo, BOF, 3Fingered and others. Also, the player comment adds a great perspective. I agree generally with the direction you plan to take by speaking to the AD at the end of the season, just laying out your observations and leaving in his hands.
There are many who suggest you speak directly to the coach. I am usually a big proponent of dealing with issues directly. But this situation is different. If a teacher is speaking abusively to the students and you hear the same from other parents and hear that it has been going on for quite some time, the correct course of action is to bring this to the attention of the principal – not speak directly to the teacher. I think the same applies for you here - speak to the AD.
Some say wait and see if you feel the same way after a while. If there is a legitimate problem, it should be dealt with sooner than later so that another crop of players don’t have to go through the same experience. If you wait until school is out and everyone is gone for the summer, it may be too late for AD to address the issue in time to allow proper transition if necessary. Besides, it sounds like you’ve been sitting on this for a while.
Some say don’t say anything, your son is moving on. I think you are doing the right thing. I have seen this vicious cycle at a few high schools... There is a coach that sucks the life and fun out of a program (I know, the proper definition of “fun” in HS sports can be a whole thread of it’s own). The parents of current players are afraid to say anything as it may jeopardize son’s status. When they get close to graduation, they figure it’s almost over, so they won’t say anything then either. Next crop, same thing. Coach and bad situation perpetuate. (I’m a coach, by the way, and think most are very good
).NOW, I STILL HAVE A FEW QESTIONS...
You asked your son about the situation and he said he can’t stand the coach. You seem to be good at following through with gathering details. What are the reasons Bill Jr can’t stand him? Why do the ex-players say they couldn’t stand the coaches and couldn’t wait to get out of the program? Why are the kids beat down and why is the dugout like a morgue? Is it just the “more negative feedback than positive”? There doesn’t seem to be much detail with that part of the story.
If you see issues with a 7 year coach and other parents and ex-players have confirmed that they all see the same, surely the AD has already heard about some of these issues. Why do you think there has been no action taken by the AD already?
A question about the hitting coach interaction... You seem to have good open dialog with your son. What does he say about the daily hitting routines and instruction at practices?
Just trying to get more perspective.
Cabbagedad, bballfan, TPM and many others thank you for your posts, comments and questions. Although he could be a better coach as far as their practice routines, player selection and teaching, etc, in the end this is not the issue. The issue is how the kids are treated and handled. I guess I do have a sense of entitlement because of the time and effort I have put into the program, but this really means nothing, as it is not like I am getting season tickets or going to be hanging around. The only thing this does however is give me credibility with the AD and school administration. We did talk a lot in the early booster meetings that although our efforts were to improve things for our kids, we really are doing things for the kids coming into the program long term. I see this as the same thing, trying to help the program and kids long term. I am not going to get into how he should, or should not, run the program, this is a slippery slope that will just dilute my message away from the real issue. He and his coaching staff do some good things and they do some bad things, just like any coach. Again all of this is secondary. What he has not done however is instill a sense of honor and respect within the program, and demand that his coaching staff uphold this ideal.
I also now know why I have not seen it earlier since my son has always been a “star” in the program, and they have more or less left him alone. He has had so much good coaching outside of the program he pretty much ignored them when they wanted him to do things a certain way. We have talked through and already handled the “my HS coach wants me to do this, and my professional coach told me to do that” thing that we see posted here all of the time.
Now that I have dug in a little, if my son was told some of the things I heard that have been said to some other players I would have been in his office the next day. I probably would have been more aware also had I paid more attention to some of the other parents complaints over the years, but I have always been a strong supporter of HS coaches in general since they have to deal with so much parental c r a p, that I guess I thought some of the complaints I heard in the past were just sour grapes about playing time etc. When a group of parents were standing around complaining about this or that I would just walk away and not be part of it. When your son is the “star” you tend to separate yourself from this stuff anyway. I do know that there have been other “meetings” and communication with the AD in the past couple of years, but like I have said I always stayed out of this stuff.
So I have started my letter to the AD. I am going to gather my thoughts and put them down over the next couple of weeks. I will send it to the AD after our season is done, and then set up a one on one meeting with him. I will calmly go though what I think is wrong, have supporting data, and then let him do whatever he wants to do with it. If other parents have complaints I am just going to tell them to make sure they talk to the AD. This will just reinforce the message. If the head coach asks me what I think I will be direct and tell him. I will then walk away knowing I have done the right thing.
Thanks again to all I will post the outcome when it is over with.
I also now know why I have not seen it earlier since my son has always been a “star” in the program, and they have more or less left him alone. He has had so much good coaching outside of the program he pretty much ignored them when they wanted him to do things a certain way. We have talked through and already handled the “my HS coach wants me to do this, and my professional coach told me to do that” thing that we see posted here all of the time.
Now that I have dug in a little, if my son was told some of the things I heard that have been said to some other players I would have been in his office the next day. I probably would have been more aware also had I paid more attention to some of the other parents complaints over the years, but I have always been a strong supporter of HS coaches in general since they have to deal with so much parental c r a p, that I guess I thought some of the complaints I heard in the past were just sour grapes about playing time etc. When a group of parents were standing around complaining about this or that I would just walk away and not be part of it. When your son is the “star” you tend to separate yourself from this stuff anyway. I do know that there have been other “meetings” and communication with the AD in the past couple of years, but like I have said I always stayed out of this stuff.
So I have started my letter to the AD. I am going to gather my thoughts and put them down over the next couple of weeks. I will send it to the AD after our season is done, and then set up a one on one meeting with him. I will calmly go though what I think is wrong, have supporting data, and then let him do whatever he wants to do with it. If other parents have complaints I am just going to tell them to make sure they talk to the AD. This will just reinforce the message. If the head coach asks me what I think I will be direct and tell him. I will then walk away knowing I have done the right thing.
Thanks again to all I will post the outcome when it is over with.
Bill,
I have avoided reading this thread like the plague.
Your whole description of this situation sounds very familiar to me, except that imagine that the coach you are describing has a winning record. It is interesting that your first post and the last post come to the same resolution......a sit down with the AD.
You have said numerous times that IF the coach would ask....you would tell him but perhaps you'd rather he not ask.
Your problem lies with a lack of respect for him as a person, not just as a coach. The kids are not your kid and the rest of everybody else's kids.......they are all "your" kids. You possess them as a group and someone else is mistreating them.
You are physically and mentally invested to where you feel it is you that is being attacked.
You also have a sense of guilt over not identifying the situation earlier and doing something about it because it wasn't affecting your son. Now you want to make it right.
There are good and bad reasons for trying to affect a change but whatever one decides to do, it is absolutely worse to make the change and have no plan for the future. Who is going to be the next coach, how is the present coach going to change if it is decided he will stay? What right do you have to decide?
I am simply going to highlight some good advice that I saw provided and hope you reconsider. My son has good things to say about his high school years now that he is in college. If you'd have asked him back then, you'd have tried to get the coach fired too.
I have avoided reading this thread like the plague.
Your whole description of this situation sounds very familiar to me, except that imagine that the coach you are describing has a winning record. It is interesting that your first post and the last post come to the same resolution......a sit down with the AD.
You have said numerous times that IF the coach would ask....you would tell him but perhaps you'd rather he not ask.
quote:I don’t think it will do any good to talk to the head coach, as the only thing that this will accomplish is to create tension between him and myself and maybe some of the boosters. I really don’t want to start an insurrection with a bunch of other parents.
Your problem lies with a lack of respect for him as a person, not just as a coach. The kids are not your kid and the rest of everybody else's kids.......they are all "your" kids. You possess them as a group and someone else is mistreating them.
quote:The issue is how the kids are treated and handled.
You are physically and mentally invested to where you feel it is you that is being attacked.
quote:I guess I do have a sense of entitlement because of the time and effort I have put into the program, but this really means nothing, as it is not like I am getting season tickets or going to be hanging around.
You also have a sense of guilt over not identifying the situation earlier and doing something about it because it wasn't affecting your son. Now you want to make it right.
quote:I also now know why I have not seen it earlier since my son has always been a “star” in the program, and they have more or less left him alone. When your son is the “star” you tend to separate yourself from this stuff anyway.
There are good and bad reasons for trying to affect a change but whatever one decides to do, it is absolutely worse to make the change and have no plan for the future. Who is going to be the next coach, how is the present coach going to change if it is decided he will stay? What right do you have to decide?
quote:I am not going to get into how he should, or should not, run the program, this is a slippery slope that will just dilute my message away from the real issue.
I am simply going to highlight some good advice that I saw provided and hope you reconsider. My son has good things to say about his high school years now that he is in college. If you'd have asked him back then, you'd have tried to get the coach fired too.
quote:There's seldom if ever justification for trying to get a HS coach fired. Let's face it, there are exceptions but most of these guys are doing it because they love the game. They sure aren't doing it for the money.
quote:Guess my point is... If someone has a legitimate problem with a coach, it might be best to deal with it as privately as possible. At the same time, people should understand that if your player is good enough, he will run into coaches he does not like at some point. And there's not much he can do about it!
quote:my best advice would be to do NOTHING FOR AT LEAST A MONTH, maybe more...time has a way of offering perspective and if you feel the same way then, act on it then....you might be surprised how you feel when your son is done with HS, playing summer ball and looking forward to College life.
quote:My 4th and final thing would be to speak to the man himself, not his assistant coach (an earlier poster was right...he absolutely told his head coach)...what message do you want to give your son? Hopefully it's that when you have a problem with someone you go directly to them, not around them....he'll have problems with people his whole life what a great opportunity!
quote:Let it be. Life is too short to go looking for stress stimuli.
This topic really hits home with me except my son is a freshman. I don't need to go into the problems expect to say that they deal with violations of state rules regarding maximum games played in a season, pitching rest violations, and allowing kids to play without proper grades in addition to the on field program management issues. It is so bad that people move out of the area to avoid playing for this guy which is really sad.
So as a freshman parent what advice would you give?
So as a freshman parent what advice would you give?
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
There are good and bad reasons for trying to affect a change but whatever one decides to do, it is absolutely worse to make the change and have no plan for the future. Who is going to be the next coach, how is the present coach going to change if it is decided he will stay? What right do you have to decide?
PA,
I don't follow most of your post. OP is a parent. He can only hope to properly inform the AD. He has no power or authority to "have a plan for the future" or determine if there will be a new coach or who it may be. He never claimed to have that right.
quote:There's seldom if ever justification for trying to get a HS coach fired. Let's face it, there are exceptions but most of these guys are doing it because they love the game. They sure aren't doing it for the money.
Yes, this has been discussed at length. OP feels this is one of those exceptions.
quote:Guess my point is... If someone has a legitimate problem with a coach, it might be best to deal with it as privately as possible. At the same time, people should understand that if your player is good enough, he will run into coaches he does not like at some point. And there's not much he can do about it!
Clearly, this is what he is doing and clearly his son is good enough.
[/QUOTE]quote:Let it be. Life is too short to go looking for stress stimuli.
Some scenarios that I have either witnessed personally have been documented as fact on this site...
Coach provides alcohol to players on a team trip.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach talks to players about what he'd like to do to one of the varsity girls players.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach comes to practices drunk on multiple occasions, cussing out the players in the process.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach is verbally abusive to the point that just about every player including starters hates being in the program. This perpetuates for several years.
Do you "Let it be".?
Point being that sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids.
quote:Coach provides alcohol to players on a team trip.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach talks to players about what he'd like to do to one of the varsity girls players.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach comes to practices drunk on multiple occasions, cussing out the players in the process.
Do you "Let it be".?
There is a huge difference between the above - which are not being considered here and the below, which is:
quote:Coach is verbally abusive to the point that just about every player including starters hates being in the program. This perpetuates for several years.
Do you "Let it be".?
Your point I get:
quote:Point being that sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids.
There is no right or wrong response to the situation. There are just consequences. To act is to create a set of circumstances that will trigger other possible outcomes. I just suggested a reconsideration of the plan of action. And I allowed for the fact that inaction may be the course even though we feel passionately about a subject. Sometimes it is this very passion that should cause one to pause or hesitate in matters that mean much to us. Emotion and passion do not ensure correctness. The coach, although despised, has a family, a career and an employer.
Once you get him fired......how secure is the next coach? What if he turns out to be worse than the guy you got fired? What if the next guy actually does something with the girls, buys alcoholic beverages for his players or comes to practice drunk?
It begs the question....why don't we have the booster club hire and fire the coach in the first place?
Because.........
No Balk, I really liked your post. You brought up something that is important - listen to your player! I don't think this is the case in this situation, but I have seen situations where groups of parents are buzzing about this or that horrible thing, and the players could care less, so it's really a non-issue.
My son has had 3 different HS coaches. The first two were run off by parents. The first was asked to resign. We liked him just fine, but the other parents definitely did not - picture the angry mob from Frankenstein. The second got frustrated and left the head coach job at our school to take the pitching coach job at another. We liked him fine, too. Several months after he left, he told me that a major issue was that parents cared more about their individual players than they did about the team. This was after a parent whose son transferred to another HS was mad at him because he didn't nominate that player for all-area.
I guess the point is that an angry mob certainly can get a HS coach fired.
A legitimate question, alluded to by PADino - what's the next one going to be like? Be careful what you wish for. We got lucky - the 3rd one so far, though not perfect, truly cares about the program and the players.
To daveccpa, if these violations can be documented, then the AD should be notified ASAP before the state HSAA gets wind of it and the program gets fined or worse - maybe even suspended from post-season play for a period of time.
My son has had 3 different HS coaches. The first two were run off by parents. The first was asked to resign. We liked him just fine, but the other parents definitely did not - picture the angry mob from Frankenstein. The second got frustrated and left the head coach job at our school to take the pitching coach job at another. We liked him fine, too. Several months after he left, he told me that a major issue was that parents cared more about their individual players than they did about the team. This was after a parent whose son transferred to another HS was mad at him because he didn't nominate that player for all-area.
I guess the point is that an angry mob certainly can get a HS coach fired.
A legitimate question, alluded to by PADino - what's the next one going to be like? Be careful what you wish for. We got lucky - the 3rd one so far, though not perfect, truly cares about the program and the players.
To daveccpa, if these violations can be documented, then the AD should be notified ASAP before the state HSAA gets wind of it and the program gets fined or worse - maybe even suspended from post-season play for a period of time.
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
[QUOTE]Coach provides alcohol to players on a team trip.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach talks to players about what he'd like to do to one of the varsity girls players.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach comes to practices drunk on multiple occasions, cussing out the players in the process.
Do you "Let it be".?
quote:There is a huge difference between the above - which are not being considered here and the below, which is:"
quote:Coach is verbally abusive to the point that just about every player including starters hates being in the program. This perpetuates for several years.
Do you "Let it be".?
PA,
I think that they are all the same in the sense that they are all major problems that need to be addressed. In each instance, if there are credible facts that the AD is not aware of, he should be made aware.
quote:Your point I get:
[QUOTE] Point being that sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids.
quote:There is no right or wrong response to the situation. There are just consequences. To act is to create a set of circumstances that will trigger other possible outcomes. ... The coach, although despised, has a family, a career and an employer.
I totally agree that consequences should be considered before action is taken. Right or wrong response? - only OP has enough info to make the final call. I get the impression that OP has thought this through and done a good deal of objective research.
quote:Once you get him fired......how secure is the next coach? What if he turns out to be worse than the guy you got fired? What if the next guy actually does something with the girls, buys alcoholic beverages for his players or comes to practice drunk?
When coach firings happen for such reasons, there tends to be a great deal of focus on the character aspect of the new candidates. Fool me once...
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
There are good and bad reasons for trying to affect a change but whatever one decides to do, it is absolutely worse to make the change and have no plan for the future. Who is going to be the next coach, how is the present coach going to change if it is decided he will stay? What right do you have to decide?
PA,
I don't follow most of your post. OP is a parent. He can only hope to properly inform the AD. He has no power or authority to "have a plan for the future" or determine if there will be a new coach or who it may be. He never claimed to have that right.
quote:There's seldom if ever justification for trying to get a HS coach fired. Let's face it, there are exceptions but most of these guys are doing it because they love the game. They sure aren't doing it for the money.
Yes, this has been discussed at length. OP feels this is one of those exceptions.
quote:Guess my point is... If someone has a legitimate problem with a coach, it might be best to deal with it as privately as possible. At the same time, people should understand that if your player is good enough, he will run into coaches he does not like at some point. And there's not much he can do about it!
Clearly, this is what he is doing and clearly his son is good enough.
quote:Let it be. Life is too short to go looking for stress stimuli.
Some scenarios that I have either witnessed personally have been documented as fact on this site...
Coach provides alcohol to players on a team trip.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach talks to players about what he'd like to do to one of the varsity girls players.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach comes to practices drunk on multiple occasions, cussing out the players in the process.
Do you "Let it be".?
Coach is verbally abusive to the point that just about every player including starters hates being in the program. This perpetuates for several years.
Do you "Let it be".?
Point being that sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids.[/QUOTE]
Point being that you hijacked the thread with a bunch of irrelevant hypotheticals. I've personally dealt with and confronted a drunk coach. Dealt with and
Of course coaches that cross the line of legality and personal safety get fired. It happens all the time. That's not the subject of the thread, tho.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
The last two firings were before the first game of the year, with the last for spiking the gatorade cooler with creatine.
THAT really blows my mind. When I was a young Marine back in the day, something like that would've been a call for a blanket party.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
The last two firings were before the first game of the year, with the last for spiking the gatorade cooler with creatine.
THAT really blows my mind. When I was a young Marine back in the day, something like that would've been a call for a blanket party.
Yeah this guy is a real __s clown. Read Here
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Point being that you hijacked the thread with a bunch of irrelevant hypotheticals. I've personally dealt with and confronted a drunk coach. Dealt with andgot firedbrought to the attention of AD and principal the serious offenses of a high school coach (Sr. Year) who was a complete train wreck. The guy proceeded to get fired the next five years in a row. The last two firings were before the first game of the year, with the last for spiking the gatorade cooler with creatine.
Of course coaches that cross the line of legality and personal safety get fired. It happens all the time. That's not the subject of the thread, tho.
04, let me make sure I understand... you are chastising me for hijacking the thread with irrelevant hypotheticals. And then you proceed to ramble on about your own irrelevant hypotheticals.
OHHHHH KAAYYYYY.
Anyway, as I explained before, I think it is relevant in the sense that they are all major problems that need to be addressed and we should not "let it be" - sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids. I don't think that an issue necessarily has to be illegal for it to be clearly wrong.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Point being that you hijacked the thread with a bunch of irrelevant hypotheticals. I've personally dealt with and confronted a drunk coach. Dealt with andgot firedbrought to the attention of AD and principal the serious offenses of a high school coach (Sr. Year) who was a complete train wreck. The guy proceeded to get fired the next five years in a row. The last two firings were before the first game of the year, with the last for spiking the gatorade cooler with creatine.
Of course coaches that cross the line of legality and personal safety get fired. It happens all the time. That's not the subject of the thread, tho.
04, let me make sure I understand... you are chastising me for hijacking the thread with irrelevant hypotheticals. And then you proceed to ramble on about your own irrelevant hypotheticals.
OHHHHH KAAYYYYY.
Anyway, as I explained before, I think it is relevant in the sense that they are all major problems that need to be addressed and we should not "let it be" - sometimes the situation does require that someone speak up and to not do so is causing harm to the kids. I don't think that an issue necessarily has to be illegal for it to be clearly wrong.
The bottom line is that high school baseball is entry level professional coaching. The turnover has been, and will be, high because the qualifications for entry are low, imo.
That you missed the relevance of my reference is all I need to know. Good day.
Bill,
I have been hesitant to comment on this subject so far, as it is a tough one. I look at this through both sides, both as a coach and as a parent. While I can completely understand your frustration with how the kids are treated, I am not sure I agree with your course of action. Take it for what it is worth, but if you want to make the program better, have a friendly conversation with the coach. If you called my A.D., he will and should, ask if you have talked to the coach first. My other question is..did the kids talk to the coach? If they are upset with how he is treating them, they need to talk to him. I had a freshman coach that was all over me in high school, one day I had had enough, (I was pitching while I was sick, but did not want to tell anyone. He was really giving it to me about not having control that day.) I told him after the game that I felt like cr** and did not appreciate him getting on me. He smiled put his arm around me, said "I am sorry. I push you because I see talent." We are friends to this day. The boys are learning to be men. Let them address it first and see how it goes. If that does not work, then approach the coach after a practice and just tell him "Hey coach, if you have a minute I just wanted to let you know about something. The kids have been a little down and are discouraged. I knew you would want to know that and I just thought I would pass it along to help. If there is anything I can do please don't hesitate to ask."
If someone approached any coach similar to this, why would they not listen? In your quote below, I will be honest..you attack the coaches' approach and methods and criticize their practices. I am not sure why you would expect them to be anything but defensive. My advice, approach the coach, but do it in the right manner or he has no reason to listen to you. I hope things work out for you, because I see you mean well.
I have been hesitant to comment on this subject so far, as it is a tough one. I look at this through both sides, both as a coach and as a parent. While I can completely understand your frustration with how the kids are treated, I am not sure I agree with your course of action. Take it for what it is worth, but if you want to make the program better, have a friendly conversation with the coach. If you called my A.D., he will and should, ask if you have talked to the coach first. My other question is..did the kids talk to the coach? If they are upset with how he is treating them, they need to talk to him. I had a freshman coach that was all over me in high school, one day I had had enough, (I was pitching while I was sick, but did not want to tell anyone. He was really giving it to me about not having control that day.) I told him after the game that I felt like cr** and did not appreciate him getting on me. He smiled put his arm around me, said "I am sorry. I push you because I see talent." We are friends to this day. The boys are learning to be men. Let them address it first and see how it goes. If that does not work, then approach the coach after a practice and just tell him "Hey coach, if you have a minute I just wanted to let you know about something. The kids have been a little down and are discouraged. I knew you would want to know that and I just thought I would pass it along to help. If there is anything I can do please don't hesitate to ask."
If someone approached any coach similar to this, why would they not listen? In your quote below, I will be honest..you attack the coaches' approach and methods and criticize their practices. I am not sure why you would expect them to be anything but defensive. My advice, approach the coach, but do it in the right manner or he has no reason to listen to you. I hope things work out for you, because I see you mean well.
quote:I did run across one of the other coaches (hitting) when I was out on the field after practice working on some stuff with my son yesterday and he asked me what was wrong. I told him that the kids I saw at the game the day before had no plate discipline and they could not bunt very well. (we had two hits that day…) He got defensive and said that they teach them how to bunt properly in practice but they just don’t do it in the game. I said something was wrong then because they looked lost at the plate. He proceeded to say that you couldn’t take pile of chicken manure and make it in to something else. He also started to blame the local Little League for not developing players. I said to him “really, well how come the kids in the program across town who come out the same league do well” He even got more defensive and walked away. The problem is that over the years this program has developed coaches that put down kids and blame it all on the players, not really looking in the mirror. You would think that after 7 losing seasons (8 now) that he would be thinking that something is wrong. To have the mentality that everything is the kids fault is the root of the problem.
quote:Let them address it first and see how it goes. If that does not work, then approach the coach after a practice and just tell him "Hey coach, if you have a minute I just wanted to let you know about something. The kids have been a little down and are discouraged. I knew you would want to know that and I just thought I would pass it along to help. If there is anything I can do please don't hesitate to ask."
Coach I really like this approach, but
1. Kids have voiced opinions and been told this is MY program, so get with the program.
2. Kids get benched for trying to bring up tips to help the team. He does not want to act on their opinions or ideas when it affects the game management. He does take their thoughts and choices for uni's or other things that do not affect the game.
3. You do not mention what action to be taken if one does not see improvement or change after the courtesy/respect of talking to him first.
4. Our coach, I get the feeling would find a way to blame the kids for everything and not be accountable. He would use what was said to turn it on the kids and deflect all views away from him. He is a savvy guy.
My gut is that nothing will change if one goes to the coach or AD. You will just be tipping them off and give them time to figure out responses to the issues.
Ask for a meeting with the principal and AD. Voice the issues, and be done with it.
I know I am in the minority here, but IMHO, I stay out of this situation. The AD is paid to run the athletic department and makes decisions regarding coaches, along with the principle, and BOE. The coach is paid to coach the team. We as parents are there to support our kids, not get involved with coaching decisions...
I think you cross the line getting involved here (even "after the fact"), unless a crime is being committed...
I don't see it here. If you want to get directly involved, run for a BOE seat. Then you can have a say...
I think you cross the line getting involved here (even "after the fact"), unless a crime is being committed...
I don't see it here. If you want to get directly involved, run for a BOE seat. Then you can have a say...
I really thought I'd said enough on this topic and perhaps I have, but there is something that I just have to add.
The OP's question:
What should I do about son's HS program?
When people write they are more careful than when they speak and they often think more cautiously before they write. The OP could have easily and perhaps more accurately questioned, "What should I do about son's HS coach?" It is not insignificant that he didn't.
The focus has been on the coach but it is a sad comment that the Athletic Director has allowed the problem to fester for so long. At least, if he had tried to make some improvement through meeting with the coach, he could have communicated it and some improvement could have been made. I've seen no information provided that the AD has addressed the situation at all. The AD in our school district attends many games and observes the behavior and effectiveness of every coach of each team. There is no excuse for him to not be in touch and he shouldn't have to rely on input from parents whose intentions are not always clear.
Athletic directors should be leaders and should present the guidance and direction for all the team sports at the school. The hiring of the coach by the Athletic Director is not the end game. Continued monitoring of the goals of the programs is key. Athletic Directors are typically experienced coaches themselves and should be keenly aware of the criticisms that can develop.
If the OP still intends on meeting with the AD, (not what I'd do) he ought to look him straight in the eye and ask him why he hasn't fixed this problem already and suggest maybe the school needs a new AD. There is no presumption of ignorance permitted here. If you are going to step on anyone's toes, you might as well take a mule with you and kick them in the gut!
The OP's question:
What should I do about son's HS program?
When people write they are more careful than when they speak and they often think more cautiously before they write. The OP could have easily and perhaps more accurately questioned, "What should I do about son's HS coach?" It is not insignificant that he didn't.
The focus has been on the coach but it is a sad comment that the Athletic Director has allowed the problem to fester for so long. At least, if he had tried to make some improvement through meeting with the coach, he could have communicated it and some improvement could have been made. I've seen no information provided that the AD has addressed the situation at all. The AD in our school district attends many games and observes the behavior and effectiveness of every coach of each team. There is no excuse for him to not be in touch and he shouldn't have to rely on input from parents whose intentions are not always clear.
Athletic directors should be leaders and should present the guidance and direction for all the team sports at the school. The hiring of the coach by the Athletic Director is not the end game. Continued monitoring of the goals of the programs is key. Athletic Directors are typically experienced coaches themselves and should be keenly aware of the criticisms that can develop.
If the OP still intends on meeting with the AD, (not what I'd do) he ought to look him straight in the eye and ask him why he hasn't fixed this problem already and suggest maybe the school needs a new AD. There is no presumption of ignorance permitted here. If you are going to step on anyone's toes, you might as well take a mule with you and kick them in the gut!
Gonyard,
I do think that after you politely try to talk to the coach and offer support and get no response you should talk to the AD. If someone disagrees with a coach's philosophy...tough. But, if he is truly belittling his players and they continue to fold on him and he is not responsive to positive conversation, it is time to go further. I would let the AD know my concerns and let him know that you will follow up with him to find out how he will improve the situation.
I do think that after you politely try to talk to the coach and offer support and get no response you should talk to the AD. If someone disagrees with a coach's philosophy...tough. But, if he is truly belittling his players and they continue to fold on him and he is not responsive to positive conversation, it is time to go further. I would let the AD know my concerns and let him know that you will follow up with him to find out how he will improve the situation.
quote:Originally posted by birdman14:
I think you cross the line getting involved here (even "after the fact"), unless a crime is being committed...
I don't see it here. If you want to get directly involved, run for a BOE seat. Then you can have a say...
Exactly..Attacking it as an outsider, you can just walk away from it when you decide you don't feel like pursuing it any longer. At least if you're going to be on the board, you have a continuing interest in what's going on.
quote:I know I am in the minority here, but IMHO, I stay out of this situation
How did that happen?
I understand you posting your situation here and getting feedback. It's like a sounding board, and you will get many varying opinions, and as I'm sure you knew when you posted it, you would get legitimate feedback from current and former HS coaches as well.
My first question to my son, if I were you, (and sorry I missed this if you already addressed this) would be if anyone on the team has ever talked to the Coach?
We never know what someone else is going through. I'm not excusing anyone's actions, or just 'blindly' defending a Coach. I don't know the situation first hand, and in all honesty that makes anything I offer purely speculation on my part.
I've had bad coaches, good coaches and indifferent coaches. Out of the 3, I think 'indifferent' was the worst...FOR ME. Every one is different.
As an outsider, these are the questions I would ask to get a better take on the situation:
"How long has the Coach been at the school?"
"Has the school ever had a winning season / tradition since the Coach has been there?"
"Has the school EVER had a history of good, competitive baseball teams, even before the Coach started?"
"How long has the AD been in their position?"
Unfortunately, many times it's not the case where someone is doing things knowingly. Many times it's just pure apathy. The Coach or the AD is beyond caring. Some are simply counting the days until they retire...some consider it just a job, and they are just trying to get through the day.
When Coaches are defensive as you describe, there is normally good reason for it. Believe me, most Coaches know when they are having a losing season. Different coaches react differently.
It's a tough decision either way, and ultimately a decision you will have to live with. Don't make the mistake of not doing something or doing something and then second guessing yourself.
Also...since it seems you are involved heavily with the booster club etc, have any other parents expressed concern with the coaching staff?
My first question to my son, if I were you, (and sorry I missed this if you already addressed this) would be if anyone on the team has ever talked to the Coach?
We never know what someone else is going through. I'm not excusing anyone's actions, or just 'blindly' defending a Coach. I don't know the situation first hand, and in all honesty that makes anything I offer purely speculation on my part.
I've had bad coaches, good coaches and indifferent coaches. Out of the 3, I think 'indifferent' was the worst...FOR ME. Every one is different.
As an outsider, these are the questions I would ask to get a better take on the situation:
"How long has the Coach been at the school?"
"Has the school ever had a winning season / tradition since the Coach has been there?"
"Has the school EVER had a history of good, competitive baseball teams, even before the Coach started?"
"How long has the AD been in their position?"
Unfortunately, many times it's not the case where someone is doing things knowingly. Many times it's just pure apathy. The Coach or the AD is beyond caring. Some are simply counting the days until they retire...some consider it just a job, and they are just trying to get through the day.
When Coaches are defensive as you describe, there is normally good reason for it. Believe me, most Coaches know when they are having a losing season. Different coaches react differently.
It's a tough decision either way, and ultimately a decision you will have to live with. Don't make the mistake of not doing something or doing something and then second guessing yourself.
Also...since it seems you are involved heavily with the booster club etc, have any other parents expressed concern with the coaching staff?
"My first question to my son, if I were you, (and sorry I missed this if you already addressed this) would be if anyone on the team has ever talked to the Coach?"
ANS: I doubt it, as the coach never asks, and most parents don’t really engage him on stuff like this. I do know that there were previous complaints about the JV coach who is now the Varsity hitting coach.
I am conflicted with this whole thing, and the beauty of this website is that you get many opinions. I have already drafted a letter to the AD, I am going to wait a week and open it up and re-read it and make any corrections to it then, wait another week and do the same thing. We have a few weeks left so no rush.
I also feel like I owe it to the coach, (and myself) to have a talk with him about my concerns so I am going to do this also. It is probably unlikely that he is going to get fired so at least I have given the program the best opportunity for change. I have then covered all of my bases and can walk away with a clear conscious. If I see the coach in the grocery store or around town I can look him in the eye and ask how things are going and not feel like a snake.
"How long has the Coach been at the school?"
"Has the school ever had a winning season / tradition since the Coach has been there?"
"Has the school EVER had a history of good, competitive baseball teams, even before the Coach started?"
ANS: 8 years now under this coach, he has never had a winning season. Apparently the former coach ran a successful program. I really don’t know why he left. I have been told that he is disgusted with how things are now going with the program, but this is second hand information.
"How long has the AD been in their position?"
ANS: Good question, I don’t know.
"Also...since it seems you are involved heavily with the booster club etc, have any other parents expressed concern with the coaching staff?"
ANS: Other parents have expressed concern and some are considering having their siblings put in the school across town. (Which is blasphemy around here when you consider the small town - cross town school rivalries and such) Like I said there have been complaints about one of the coaches when he ran the JV program. I hear grumblings and I just say that you should talk to the AD and leave it at that.
ANS: I doubt it, as the coach never asks, and most parents don’t really engage him on stuff like this. I do know that there were previous complaints about the JV coach who is now the Varsity hitting coach.
I am conflicted with this whole thing, and the beauty of this website is that you get many opinions. I have already drafted a letter to the AD, I am going to wait a week and open it up and re-read it and make any corrections to it then, wait another week and do the same thing. We have a few weeks left so no rush.
I also feel like I owe it to the coach, (and myself) to have a talk with him about my concerns so I am going to do this also. It is probably unlikely that he is going to get fired so at least I have given the program the best opportunity for change. I have then covered all of my bases and can walk away with a clear conscious. If I see the coach in the grocery store or around town I can look him in the eye and ask how things are going and not feel like a snake.
"How long has the Coach been at the school?"
"Has the school ever had a winning season / tradition since the Coach has been there?"
"Has the school EVER had a history of good, competitive baseball teams, even before the Coach started?"
ANS: 8 years now under this coach, he has never had a winning season. Apparently the former coach ran a successful program. I really don’t know why he left. I have been told that he is disgusted with how things are now going with the program, but this is second hand information.
"How long has the AD been in their position?"
ANS: Good question, I don’t know.
"Also...since it seems you are involved heavily with the booster club etc, have any other parents expressed concern with the coaching staff?"
ANS: Other parents have expressed concern and some are considering having their siblings put in the school across town. (Which is blasphemy around here when you consider the small town - cross town school rivalries and such) Like I said there have been complaints about one of the coaches when he ran the JV program. I hear grumblings and I just say that you should talk to the AD and leave it at that.
Bill Gates,
So can you tell us what came of this?
So can you tell us what came of this?
I can Mr. Cabbage.
I ended up having a constructive talk with the AD, and let him know my concerns and I also pointed out the positive things the coach does. It was obvious the AD wanted to improve things, but I could sense that he was not going to do too much. Some of what he does or does not do will probably depend on what type of other complaints he gets from other parents, and the reality there will have to be a lot of complaints for him to take any significant action I think.
He did say that it is difficult for AD’s to deal with parental complaints and that one of the topics that always comes up with AD meetings are the fact that baseball programs get more complaints than any of the other high school sports. In the end I am not sure what he will do, I suspect not much. When you look at the difficulty of finding a good replacement and the amount of work that it would take, I suspect he will probably do very little and move on and deal with issues as they come up.
Now that my son is gone the subject does not come up much anymore, he may complain in passing on how **** py the program was run and quickly move on to other things. In the end I feel like I did what my conscience required of me, said my peace, and let it go. It is certainly much easier not having to be there to watch it day in and day out.
In the end it is only HS baseball and the program will continue to be mediocre at best, the kids will get a perspective on life that and learn that your boss is not always going to be someone you respect, or someone you like, or is particularly talented, or etc etc. It is a shame that a that the program will continue on in its mediocrity, but there are other bigger issues in the world and one more run of the mill HS baseball program is not going to hurt anyone.
Cheers.
I ended up having a constructive talk with the AD, and let him know my concerns and I also pointed out the positive things the coach does. It was obvious the AD wanted to improve things, but I could sense that he was not going to do too much. Some of what he does or does not do will probably depend on what type of other complaints he gets from other parents, and the reality there will have to be a lot of complaints for him to take any significant action I think.
He did say that it is difficult for AD’s to deal with parental complaints and that one of the topics that always comes up with AD meetings are the fact that baseball programs get more complaints than any of the other high school sports. In the end I am not sure what he will do, I suspect not much. When you look at the difficulty of finding a good replacement and the amount of work that it would take, I suspect he will probably do very little and move on and deal with issues as they come up.
Now that my son is gone the subject does not come up much anymore, he may complain in passing on how **** py the program was run and quickly move on to other things. In the end I feel like I did what my conscience required of me, said my peace, and let it go. It is certainly much easier not having to be there to watch it day in and day out.
In the end it is only HS baseball and the program will continue to be mediocre at best, the kids will get a perspective on life that and learn that your boss is not always going to be someone you respect, or someone you like, or is particularly talented, or etc etc. It is a shame that a that the program will continue on in its mediocrity, but there are other bigger issues in the world and one more run of the mill HS baseball program is not going to hurt anyone.
Cheers.