A 90 mph FB?
Or a 80 mph CB at 2500 rpm?
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90 mph FB.....no question
Reason I brought it up is if you search in PBR, there are pages of guys throwing 90 mph but few at 80 CB.
A FB is effective largely by it's velo and also (but generally less so) by it's location and movement. A CB is effective largely by it's movement and location and also (but less so) by it's velo.
A good velo FB will keep hitters honest and make decent off-speed offerings more effective. Without a good velo FB, other off-speed offerings are less effective. The hitter knows there is time to sit.
Movement and effectiveness of a CB can often be adjusted with minor tweaks to grip, release, arm angle, etc. Minor tweaks won't change an 84 mph FB into a 90+ mph FB.
A 90 FB during recruiting is likely to become 92-94 in college. An 84 FB is much less likely to become 92-94 in college.
And on and on... a good velo base is what sets up everything else.
This is not to say that a P with a particularly sharp CB can't be effective leaning on that pitch.
Great explanation. I guess what I was really seeing is that few pitchers have both on PBR.
If I search for a year group, 90 mph FB and 80 MPH CB, I get a rare combination of only a handful of pitchers.
Of course it makes sense that 1 pitch sets up the other.
Shouldn't an 80 mph, 2500 RPM CB guy have the arm strength to throw 90 easily?
the average speed differential in the majors according to this article is 14 mph (obviously dependent on Velo as a 100 mph guy will have a larger gap than an 80 mph fb guys)
I think Trevor Bauer would take the 2500 rpm CB kid. TB was said in this podcast from Jeff Passan how he wants to build an average mid major into a powerhouse pitching school when he is 45.
It is a fascinating interview that IMO is well worth the time to hear his thoughts on a variety of subjects. It was the first thing that really made me a fan. It is classic Bauer and so good. From why he won’t sign a long term deal (it involves getting shot in the junk with a paintball gun) to how many cy young’s he wants to win to the espn body issue. Funny and informative.
Good Knight:
As a College Coach, I would ask the pitcher what location is the pitch to a hitter on a 0-2 count and is the pitch "fast ball" or "curve"?
Bob
@used2lurk posted:I think Trevor Bauer would take the 2500 rpm CB kid. TB was said in this podcast from Jeff Passan how he wants to build an average mid major into a powerhouse pitching school when he is 45.
It is a fascinating interview that IMO is well worth the time to hear his thoughts on a variety of subjects. It was the first thing that really made me a fan. It is classic Bauer and so good. From why he won’t sign a long term deal (it involves getting shot in the junk with a paintball gun) to how many cy young’s he wants to win to the espn body issue. Funny and informative.
Trevor Bauer overrates himself. I think most would agree with Cabbage.
For those of you that did not listen or heard what he said in the podcast he (my paraphrased version) said:
I take all the kids with great off speed stuff (ie 2500 spin rate CB) that never get recruited by P5 cuz not enough velo and encourage them all to redshirt freshman year. Do nothing teach/train VELO and then how to pitch/compete. When they are ready to pitch sophomore year they all will throw 8-12 mph harder, still have dominating off-speed, and his staff would "punch out the f-ing world" on their way to the NCAA regionals and potentially beyond. He would do nothing with hitters and defense...just the pitching staff.
@used2lurk posted:For those of you that did not listen or heard what he said in the podcast he (my paraphrased version) said:
I take all the kids with great off speed stuff (ie 2500 spin rate CB) that never get recruited by P5 cuz not enough velo and encourage them all to redshirt freshman year. Do nothing teach/train VELO and then how to pitch/compete. When they are ready to pitch sophomore year they all will throw 8-12 mph harder, still have dominating off-speed, and his staff would "punch out the f-ing world" on their way to the NCAA regionals and potentially beyond. He would do nothing with hitters and defense...just the pitching staff.
You realize he's never recruited a player or coached a game, right? I get that he's got strong opinions and is a decent (barely above major league average, based on WAR) pitcher, but I don't think 300 D1 coaches are wrong. You can't teach velocity, regardless of what he claims.
Can you teach intelligent?
Bob
I think it’s always velo. Always. My son’s last track man had his average CB at 2803rpm., peak was 2853. Not one coach ever recruited him for his curve. It’s really a combination of everything for coaches, but they aren’t even going to look at your CB until they like the velo on you FB.
Interesting discussion. Our HS coach does not let my guy throw a CB the first time thru the batting order. FB and CU that both look pretty much the same.
It seems to work but I am not a coach and do not interfere.
But I also do not understand if this is the right thing to do or not.
@Good Knight posted:Interesting discussion. Our HS coach does not let my guy throw a CB the first time thru the batting order. FB and CU that both look pretty much the same.
It seems to work but I am not a coach and do not interfere.
But I also do not understand if this is the right thing to do or not.
No cookie cutter approach is right for every game situation - or for any pitcher. If the opposing team can’t catchup to your pitchers FB you are doing them a favor by throwing something else. The reverse is true too. If the opposing team is all over your pitchers FB, and that’s all you feature first time thru the lineup, there is usually a different pitcher on the mound second time thru. Hard and fast rules about how to pitch are a mistake IMO. Pitching is about making adjustments- especially if the initial plan isn’t working. Sometimes those adjustments need to be made in the first inning or else you are behind 3-0 before you know what happened. I’ve seen it happen way too many times.
I agree. As an initial plan it can be a good strategy, but if you stick to a plan just for the sake of the plan even though it doesn't work that is stupid.