Whatever happened to the five tool player?

Both of the Uptons are considered 5 tool players. Bj and Justin.

Not in the majors yet.

Beltran

Ivan Rodriguez

I would say one of the newest guys in the majors that I would consider as a 5 tool guy would be former LBSU player Troy Tulowitzki, he's a shortstop for the Rockies.

quote:

Originally posted by Lclcoach:
I would say one of the newest guys in the majors that I would consider as a 5 tool guy would be former LBSU player Troy Tulowitzki, he's a shortstop for the Rockies.

And a former TULSA DRILLER!

Grady Sizemore may possibly develop into one if he adds a bit more power to his game. Not sure if his arm is considered a plus tool or not.

Deldad, there are more 5 tool players than most people realize. Here's some guys who are up and coming and some who are starting to slow down but they are all 5 tool players:

David Wright

Alphonso Soriano

Grady Sizemore

Chase Utley

Bobby Abreu

Vlad Guerrero

ARod

Scott Rolen

Vernon Wells

Johnny Damon

There are also some guys who don't have quite as much power but still do it all:

Derek Jeter

Jose Reyes

Brian Roberts

Hanley Ramirez

With all due respect "Dear Old Dad"!

Those are not all 5 tool players. For example, Johnny Damon grades out very poorly with his arm.

Would anyone consider Miguel Cabrera?

My perception is that I have never truely seen a 5 tool player.

JMO

Off field problems aside - Josh Hamilton. This guy is one of the most talented players to come along in a long time. It is just too bad that off field issues have held him back.

I think a Cadillac is a is a 5 tool car, others feel a Lexus is. I feel the same can be said when defining a player as 5-tool. That line of, is , and, is not , is very fine, and really only an opinion. I feel there are three reasons why there is the presumtion that there are fewer 5 tool players now.

1. The talent level now is much closer from top to bottom from lets say 10 years ago that a player has to be exceptionally special and stick out to be considered 5-tool.

2. Scouts and organizations feel that they might be either, giving the "kiss of death" to a player, it's a phrase they do not want to hear when negotiating, or, do not want to presumed idiots if the 5-tool tag does not stick.

3. Years ago the 5-tool tag was one shared within the baseball community. Now, with the internet craze I think the phrase is used a little more descretion publicly when describing a player.

IMHO

Jeff Francoeur - needs to pull average up but the kid can play

Only "5 tooler's" - IMO - in the last 50 years:

Arthur Shamsky

Kenny Boswell

And the "tools" that rate tools.

LOL

P.S. Tools dont mean squat. Only results have meaning.

Bonds has six tools: add "Good Pharmacist"

There's a big roar coming from the crowd and applause soon follows!

Badda Bing Hokie One!!!

Tools are in fact proven to be very important. That said, performance ends up being most important in reaching the top and staying there.

Without tools it is highly unlikely that a player will ever get the opportunity. In the end there are those with two above average tools who end up better than some with 5 tools. This usually happens when the two tools are hitting and power. Hitting is the hardest tools to grade IMO.

I doubt if anyone can name a single current Major League position player who does not possess at least two above average tools.

Tools are a scouting thing. Many times no one outside of scouting knows or understands what grade a player receives.

For those interested in playing professional baseball... It is very important to work on the tools. It is not always necessary to have five tools. It is vitally important that a player has more than one.

Once a player enters pro ball, tools are not as important. Then performance starts to take over. Tools still are graded though and used for possible trade and rule V purposes.

It's all about what a player may or may not be capable of. A player who runs 4 seconds on a stolen base attempt is never going to steal bases in professional baseball. A catcher with a 2.5 pop time will not throw out basestealers in professional baseball. It doesn't matter how good or smart a baserunner he might be. It doesn't matter how quick the catchers transfer is or how smart he is, if the ball takes that long to get to second base. There aren't many catchers with weak arms in the Major Leagues or anywhere else in professional baseball. It's not a conspiracy... it's just the way things are.

And to understand the importance of velocity, one only needs to check the draft every year. No, you don't have to throw 90 to be successful, but which pitchers are drafted in the early rounds every year? I'm sure it has happened before, but I can't remember a single pitcher drafted out of high school in the first round who did not show at least 90 mph velocity. So no matter what anyone thinks or says... the real world is showing us the proof. It's not enough just throwing 90-100 mph, but if you have only one plus thing as a pitcher... Which one thing gets drafted the highest? (Colt Griffin) Baseball shows us what they most covet! We get to see it every June. It's not what people say... the proof is in what people do!

One last thing regarding tools... Those with the very best tools tend to have very good results (performance). The Big Leagues is full of guys with tools. They draft players in the early rounds because they want them to be good ML players. There are many cases of players tearing up the lower levels of the minor leagues and "hitting the wall". This often happens at AA or AAA levels. Sometimes it happens at the top level. Often this happens as the game speeds up and the tools can't keep up with the level of competition.

nice pg

PGStaff - Who do you consider to be legit 5 tool players that are currently playing professional baseball - minors or majors?

Doug (BBScout) and myself were involved in a similar thread a year or two ago. I think we both agreed that a true 5 tool player should be one with well above average grades in all 5 categories. You also have to dictate if you are talking about 5 tool now or 5 tool future (OFP). There are very very few true 5 tool (Now) players that we ever see. There are several 5 tool (Future) guys. But to be a 5 tool future guy, you need to be well above average in some areas (Now)… You can’t really project speed or arm if it’s not present now. You might be able to project power, and possibly field and/or even hit in some cases.

I’m not sure who all could be considered 5 tool guys in professional baseball because we don’t really scout professional baseball.

But you can start by taking all those who run extremely well (base stealers)… Who hit lots of home runs and hit .300 or better and also have a very strong arm and field their position among the best at the Major League level. One or two average tools would eliminate a player from being a true 5 tool player IMO. Most 5 OFP tools guys. Don’t end up being 5 tool guys once they get to the Major Leagues. That’s where the numbers and statistics take over in determining tools.

Best 5 tool player ever… IMO… Willie Mays. If someone were to ask me who else compares to him… I would have to say no one! He has over a .300 life time batting average (Hit), is among the all time leaders in home runs and RBI (Power), He won the gold glove every year (Field), he led the league many times in stolen bases(Run) and no one could run on him (Throw)

Of the younger pro’s maybe Lastings Milledge or Justin Upton could end up being a 5 tool player in the MLB.

BTW… Where has BBScout been lately. I really miss his valuable input.

PG - since we are talking about the young guys, do you rate Justin Upton over Cam Maybin in tools? I believe Maybin will be a superstar very soon and while Upton is very talented, I believe Maybin has more upside.

Scbaseball,

You're not alone with that opinion. We could add Andrew McCutchen to the list from that year. He’s another 5 tool type.

First, we have gone on record as saying Justin Upton has/had the best tools we’ve ever seen in a high school player. But Cameron Maybin and McCutchen are not far behind from that same class.

Maybin and Upton… Maybin had a better year! He could have more upside, without having better tools.

First of all he is the tallest of the three. Upton is/was more physically mature out of high school.

I’d have to look up how we graded the two as high school players, but Upton had by far the better arm and ran faster.

So it will all boil down to which guy ends up being better with the bat. Adding McCutchen and Jay Bruce from the same draft class and based on last year’s results, arguably most people would put those four in maybe this order. 1, 2 and 3 could change order, but number 4 is number 4 based on last year alone.

1. Maybin
2. McCutchen
3. Bruce
4. Upton

Maybin, Bruce and Upton all played in the Midwest (low A) League; McCutchen played in the Sally (low A) and the Eastern (AA) League.

But there is a long way to go. We must remember the minor leagues are there to develop, most important is what these players do once they reach the Big Leagues.

For those who don’t think tools are all that important, here is the signing bonus for those four guys.

Upton - $6.1 million
Maybin – $2.65 million
McCutchen - $1.9 million
Bruce – $1.8 million

Wonder how many clubs would like to have all of the other three for about the same price as one Justin Upton? Sometimes things just don’t make much sense when it comes to money and baseball.

Jerry

There is a young Andrew McCutcheon - with the monkey K.

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PG,
Our son played against Maybin and Upton this summer.
Absolutely raves about Maybin. Speed, plays the game hard and with great ability. I got to see Maybin a couple of times. I would pay to watch him play. Boy, does he have talent..he can run, throw, hit, hit in the clutch, hit with power, throw and inspire confidence in his teammates. What he could be when he grows up!!!
Upton, plays the game like...well, different than Maybin. I think most scouts felt pretty much the same about Upton this past season.
Little doubt that Upton's bonus will buy his way into MLB, while he "cruises" and uses along the way. Too bad he was born with so much ability and demonstrates so little heart and make up to go with it...so far.

Good PIC Its!

I know you like Andrew... So do we!

He has the tools and the head and the heart to end up being a ML star!.

infielddad,

I share your opinion of Maybin. He has some intangibles in addition to his unbelievable talent. He's a great kid from a great family and he's just plain fun to be around.

I disagree with the opinion on Upton. Though I understand what you're saying. $6.2 million can be very tough to deal with HaHa! He's also a great kid from a great family. He does not have the same personality as Maybin.

Neither of these guys ever ducked the top competition. While Maybin had the better year and is one of the best prospects in the minor leagues, both these kids have shown they have heart.

Justin Upton in high school was one of the most high profile players ever. It will be interesting to see what happens next year. Both these guys are very young.

PGStaff - I have a question. If Rafael Furcal has the best arm for a SS in the bigs you will give him credit for having that one tool(throwing). Does that mean the other shortstops don't have that one tool simply because they are not as you say, "well above average". I would like to think that just about every Major League SS has the tool of throwing. That's why they are Major League shortstops. You give credit to Justin Upton for having 5 tools but he merely blends in throwing wise when compared to all shortstops in the bigs. Does he lose that tool when he gets to the show?

In my opinion, once a guy can throw a certain speed, he has the tool of throwing. Period. It doesn't matter if he has the weakest arm in the Majors. Same with running. If a guy runs a 6.3 60 he has the tool(speed). It doesn't matter if he can't steal a base or judge a flyball.

It seems to me that you are judging the tools too harshly. The only criteria for judging a tool should be, "Is it good enough for the Major Leagues"? And I should probably add. "For that particular position".

That's why Justin Upton is not quite a 5 tool player yet. His fielding is not Major League standard yet.

And I agree with you about Willie Mays. But I think the all-time 5 tool player could have been Bo Jackson. His tools were superior to everyone. All he needed was more experience to bring up his average to have it all.

PG, just wanted to make clear that my comments about Upton were solely based on his performance and effort in the MWL this past summer. He did not play the game with the effort or intensity of Maybin, did not seem to adjust well to the challenges he encountered on the field, and did not produce the type of results you would expect from someone...with his expectations. I doubt he will need to return any of that bonus, though.
Seems to me if he is the type of person you describe, we should see him use the MWL season to learn. Come 2007, he should be a very different player on the field. I hope that happens because it is always fun to see a player with great talent perform to the best of his ability.

quote:

By Dear Old Dad
It seems to me that you are judging the tools too harshly. The only criteria for judging a tool should be, "Is it good enough for the Major Leagues"? And I should probably add. "For that particular position".

Dear Old Dad (What a great name),

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense, but…

All players are not equal at any position at any level including the Major Leagues. Furcal among the best arms, Eckstein would grade out well below average comparing shortstops in the Major Leagues. Ozzie Smith below average, Shawon Dunston among the best SS arms. Most everyone with Eckstein arm strength will never see the Major Leagues. Most shortstops (if not all) in the Cardinals minor league system have stronger arms than Eckstein. They just can’t play as well as he does. No one ever played it better than Ozzie Smith.

Upton’s arm stands out period. And he will probably be playing CF when he reaches the Big Leagues. There can be a big difference between who has the best tools (talent) and who is the best player (production). The minor leagues are full of players with better tools than many Major League players. There are high school players with better tools than some Major League players. These are normally the high draft picks.


That would mean that every arm as strong as Ecksteins is good enough to play shortstop in the Major Leagues. That covers thousands of players. It’s a combination of the tools, along with many other things that determines the ability to play in the Major Leagues. Once in the system, tools take a back seat to production. Tools get a player drafted, production gets them to the big leagues.

Tools are graded (judged) using a 2-8, 20-80 scale. This scale is based on how the tools compare to those at the MLB level. The Major Leagues has many players who grade below average at one thing or another. They’re not all 5 tool guys. In fact, now days the most important tool is hitting. Without that tool, the others don’t matter quite as much. But we all know they don’t hit equally. Some grade out as better hitters than others. Just as some have more power, more speed, better arms or better defensive ability.

Example… Eckstein might grade above average in hitting and fielding. Probably average as a runner, below average in power and well below average arm. And we all know that in his case that is plenty good enough to play well at SS in the Major Leagues. Good enough to be MVP of the World Series. The intangibles play big!

There are several other things beside the 5 tools that have a big impact on whether someone plays in the Major Leagues. Remember 5 or 50 grade is Major League average. If all MLB shortstops ran and threw exactly the same that would be the average. However they don’t! Then again SS is a position that requires better tools than other positions. The average running times would be better at that position than most other positions.

So when grading arm and defensive tools in a young catcher. You have Ivan Rodriguez at or near the top… You have Mike Piazza at or near the bottom. They are not graded the same because both have been catchers for many years at that level. The young catcher who has Rodriguez type tools will grade out higher defensively than the young catcher with Piazza type tools. Defense keeps the Piazza types from being 5 tool catchers.

One last thing… As we all know… The order of importance of the different 5 tools, changes by position. Nearly everyone has an area or two that is not above average. Then again they all have at least two above average tools.

Bo Jackson sure did have unbelievable ability and tools.

Please don’t take what I write as the final word on anything. These are just my opinions and I don’t expect everyone to agree with them. I’ve been proven wrong more times than most people.

PGSTAFF, you have a PM.

Saw a lot of MWL games this past season. Saw Maybin, Bruce and Upton but the one player who impressed me the most with all the tools, was Mayberry. On top of that he is a physical specimen beyond compare. He's got a couple years on them and needs to make a little better contact but the other tools compare.

5 tool players are RARE no matter what era you speak of .

Today there are even fewer because kids with tools as they are not schooled in the basics, not do they work on the basics of the game as they used to.

Players I have personally seen with what I consider 5 tools;

Willie Mays
Jackie Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Mickey Mantle
Alfonso Soriano

I am sure there are others but these are off the top of my head


Youngsters I have seen who could be 5 Toolers

Cameron Maybin---and he is one of the classiest kids I have ever met---when we beat his team in Jupiter he and his Dad came to us to offer congratulations and good luck the rest of the way