So do I get 
for saying that I think they start All Stars and State tournaments in rec ball too early. Nothing to do with egos or esteem, but at that age, "talent" is hard to define and the little guys fun is over shadowed by overly agressive parents who think little johnny shows major league talent before the age of 8. Let them be kids. Teach them the rules and let them just play for a few years without being judged! 
Well, Puma, you and Mr. Engh are trying to tell us that we shouldn't have all star teams under the age of 8 (Mr. Engh actually said we do it at age 5 if I remember correctly. I'd go back and read his article again but I just ate.)
LL all star teams start at age 9. And at our league, there is much more dedication to development on that team than overall winning.
Painting all parents with the broad brush that we think our <8 players are MLB material isn't fair.
That being said, I don't care what age you are, some kids have more talent than others and I think that's pretty easy to see.
LL all star teams start at age 9. And at our league, there is much more dedication to development on that team than overall winning.
Painting all parents with the broad brush that we think our <8 players are MLB material isn't fair.
That being said, I don't care what age you are, some kids have more talent than others and I think that's pretty easy to see.
BUT, if we are going to talk about how things are done in the 9-10 all stars - Politics play a large roll and that never stops at any age.
Unfortunately, the best 12 players in any league anywhere, are not on the all star teams. I know this will rub some the wrong way, but at best we usually had 6 of the best players and 6 political picks, Just the way it was.
I have never been an advocate of "trophies for everything". In our case we have oodles and oodles of trophies - only a few of which mean anything to my boys.
Unfortunately, the best 12 players in any league anywhere, are not on the all star teams. I know this will rub some the wrong way, but at best we usually had 6 of the best players and 6 political picks, Just the way it was.
I have never been an advocate of "trophies for everything". In our case we have oodles and oodles of trophies - only a few of which mean anything to my boys.
Yes. And politics also plays a part in who gets promoted at my company and some people get warnings while I get a speeding ticket, and on and on and on.
Life isn't fair. Get over it and get used to it. And work your butt off to be sure that you and only you control your future.
Dependency is debilitating and disgusting.
Life isn't fair. Get over it and get used to it. And work your butt off to be sure that you and only you control your future.
Dependency is debilitating and disgusting.
A coach I have known for 12 years recently did something unusual.
He had coached a team in our Little League for several years. Of course his son was on the team and also the son of the assistant coach.
We had three players that were pretty equal at 2B, but who got the nod every game at 2B, yes the asst. coaches son. Trouble was the other two guys were better hitters. As time went on the two other players gave up baseball - they just never got anywhere. They proved themselves over and over, but had to move on because they just did not get to play.
Fastforward five years. Coach actually pays a house call to each of the players and their parents to express how he regrets how he handled things, should have given them a chance, etc....
He had coached a team in our Little League for several years. Of course his son was on the team and also the son of the assistant coach.
We had three players that were pretty equal at 2B, but who got the nod every game at 2B, yes the asst. coaches son. Trouble was the other two guys were better hitters. As time went on the two other players gave up baseball - they just never got anywhere. They proved themselves over and over, but had to move on because they just did not get to play.
Fastforward five years. Coach actually pays a house call to each of the players and their parents to express how he regrets how he handled things, should have given them a chance, etc....
My e-mails have been sent to both the Mayor and the author of this article. Hopefully, I'm not the only one.
quote:That being said, I don't care what age you are, some kids have more talent than others and I think that's pretty easy to see.
At U8, early bloomers and the degree of physical growth and maturity determine playing ability more than "talent". There are rec leagues that begin choosing their elite future hall of famers in T-Ball.
And I don;t know any T-Ballers that need to learn that "life is not fair" at the age of 5 or 6. They have plenty of time to find out!
Will you please stop talking about 5 and 6 year olds. You and Mr. Engh keep making up stories about them.
I actually should have realized when my son was the only one to strike out in the T-Ball Championship that he was doomed to be a pitcher, I just didn't see the signs at the time. 
quote:Originally posted by iheartbb:
We had three players that were pretty equal at 2B, but who got the nod every game at 2B, yes the asst. coaches son. Trouble was the other two guys were better hitters. As time went on the two other players gave up baseball - they just never got anywhere. They proved themselves over and over, but had to move on because they just did not get to play.
Thing is, if those players who gave up really were into the game, they'd have found a way or another place to play or improve to the point where the coach has to be an idiot for benching them.
It's frustrating. I've seen this frustration firsthand with my own kid who was among the top 6 in the local little league and his travel team. When he was a HS freshman, he didn't get much playing time even though he played well when he was in the games, thought maybe that was the end of his HS playing days.
He decided to stick it out. He payed his dues the next couple of seasons, worked hard on strength, conditioning and speed in this past off-season, came into the preseason/tryouts in good shape, got his chance and had a strong preseason and wound up as the everyday outfielder on the varsity batted 3rd in the lineup and was one of the better outfielders in the conference. There were other players in the same boat as my son competing for the same spots but they quit. That's the difference.
Jiminy Christmas,
What do you mean you are NOT wearing
a "Beachwood Gets It" Button
In other words, Beachwood's position has a First Amendment / religious point of view
Why?
The program was initiated by Mayor (outside of Cleveland suburbs) Merle Gordon to build for Beachwood's future collaboration with Israel.... said Thomas Sudow, Executive Director of the Beachwood Chamber of Commerce.
---------------------------------
The opinion you may want to reconsider is from Fred Engh. Engh is the founder and president of the National Alliance For Youth Sports. His organization, a non-profit
, started in 1981 and is suppose to work to provide safe and fun sports for children. He is a self-proclaimed leading expert in the youth sports in America.
He authored a book titled "Why Johnny Hates Sports". The book explores the disturbing state of organized youth sports in America.
Claims to have extensive youth sports background.
Bottom Line: Engh provides a unique perspective on the many problems plaguing youth sports, and what can be done to correct them.
Of course Beachwood's major read Engh's book.
Engh lived in Maryland on the Eastern Shore, and moved his family and non-profit company to West Palm Beach, a pristine community on the east coast of Florida.
--------------------------------
Here's is the NAYS view point on the "great debate":
What role should all-star teams play in youth sports?
"When it comes to youth sports one of the most hotly debated issues is at what age are all-star teams appropriate?
The National Alliance for Youth Sports’ (NAYS) believes all-star teams should not begin in a recreational youth sports program until children are at least 11-years-old. The National Standards for Youth Sports, originally developed in 1987 and updated in 2007 with the input of hundreds of the nation’s top recreation professionals, states the following in Standard No. 1:
● Post-season tournament or all-star competition highly discouraged for children ages 6-8
● Out-of-community postseason play only when necessary for children ages 9-10 and no national tournament participation
According to several surveys conducted in recent years, the response children most often give when asked why they play sports is “to have fun.”
Children typically become more interested in competition and begin to take sports more seriously around the age of 11.
So often times, all-star teams comprised of children 10-and-under are created to appease ultra-competitive adults and don’t have the best interests of the children in mind.
When it comes to youth sports leagues for children 10-and-under, are there truly “all-star” players, or children who simply mature sooner than others?
Children who mature quicker are going to be stronger, faster and probably more productive on the field. So picking them for all-star teams simply recognizes those players, in many cases, whose bodies have developed faster.
When it comes to children ages 11 and up, NAYS believes it’s appropriate to hold post-season all-star games, as long as they do not infringe on recreational leagues. Many communities not only cut recreational league seasons short to accommodate all-star travel teams, but some do not even offer recreational leagues during certain seasons in lieu of fielding a regional team of all-stars.
NAYS supports communities who decide to hold all-star games at the conclusion of a season for children older than 10.
What NAYS adamantly disagrees with is when a youngster is turned away from league play through an exclusionary system of selecting only the best players.
Every child should have an opportunity to play on a sports team regardless of skill level. Children with superior skills do deserve the recognition of being selected to an all-star team, but not at the cost of preventing other children from being able to participate.
Simply stated, if your league is going to hold an all-star game, make sure all the other children have had an adequate opportunity to play the game as well.
We’re all aware that at any level of athletics, certain individuals will always stand out above the rest. It may be because of a physical advantage, natural athletic ability or a more determined work ethic, among many other reasons.
If you’re going to recognize these kids – as long as it’s done at the appropriate ages – that’s great. Just remember that it shouldn’t come at the expense of the other kids in the program."
-------
Simply stated, I, and founder and chairman of the board for the Silver Spring Sports Association, adamently disagree with Engh's view point.
enuf said.
What do you mean you are NOT wearing
a "Beachwood Gets It" Button
In other words, Beachwood's position has a First Amendment / religious point of view
Why?
The program was initiated by Mayor (outside of Cleveland suburbs) Merle Gordon to build for Beachwood's future collaboration with Israel.... said Thomas Sudow, Executive Director of the Beachwood Chamber of Commerce.
---------------------------------
The opinion you may want to reconsider is from Fred Engh. Engh is the founder and president of the National Alliance For Youth Sports. His organization, a non-profit
, started in 1981 and is suppose to work to provide safe and fun sports for children. He is a self-proclaimed leading expert in the youth sports in America. He authored a book titled "Why Johnny Hates Sports". The book explores the disturbing state of organized youth sports in America.
Claims to have extensive youth sports background.
Bottom Line: Engh provides a unique perspective on the many problems plaguing youth sports, and what can be done to correct them.
Of course Beachwood's major read Engh's book.
Engh lived in Maryland on the Eastern Shore, and moved his family and non-profit company to West Palm Beach, a pristine community on the east coast of Florida.
--------------------------------
Here's is the NAYS view point on the "great debate":
What role should all-star teams play in youth sports?
"When it comes to youth sports one of the most hotly debated issues is at what age are all-star teams appropriate?
The National Alliance for Youth Sports’ (NAYS) believes all-star teams should not begin in a recreational youth sports program until children are at least 11-years-old. The National Standards for Youth Sports, originally developed in 1987 and updated in 2007 with the input of hundreds of the nation’s top recreation professionals, states the following in Standard No. 1:
● Post-season tournament or all-star competition highly discouraged for children ages 6-8
● Out-of-community postseason play only when necessary for children ages 9-10 and no national tournament participation
According to several surveys conducted in recent years, the response children most often give when asked why they play sports is “to have fun.”
Children typically become more interested in competition and begin to take sports more seriously around the age of 11.
So often times, all-star teams comprised of children 10-and-under are created to appease ultra-competitive adults and don’t have the best interests of the children in mind.
When it comes to youth sports leagues for children 10-and-under, are there truly “all-star” players, or children who simply mature sooner than others?
Children who mature quicker are going to be stronger, faster and probably more productive on the field. So picking them for all-star teams simply recognizes those players, in many cases, whose bodies have developed faster.
When it comes to children ages 11 and up, NAYS believes it’s appropriate to hold post-season all-star games, as long as they do not infringe on recreational leagues. Many communities not only cut recreational league seasons short to accommodate all-star travel teams, but some do not even offer recreational leagues during certain seasons in lieu of fielding a regional team of all-stars.
NAYS supports communities who decide to hold all-star games at the conclusion of a season for children older than 10.
What NAYS adamantly disagrees with is when a youngster is turned away from league play through an exclusionary system of selecting only the best players.
Every child should have an opportunity to play on a sports team regardless of skill level. Children with superior skills do deserve the recognition of being selected to an all-star team, but not at the cost of preventing other children from being able to participate.
Simply stated, if your league is going to hold an all-star game, make sure all the other children have had an adequate opportunity to play the game as well.
We’re all aware that at any level of athletics, certain individuals will always stand out above the rest. It may be because of a physical advantage, natural athletic ability or a more determined work ethic, among many other reasons.
If you’re going to recognize these kids – as long as it’s done at the appropriate ages – that’s great. Just remember that it shouldn’t come at the expense of the other kids in the program."
-------
Simply stated, I, and founder and chairman of the board for the Silver Spring Sports Association, adamently disagree with Engh's view point.
enuf said.
wow, a self esteem issue??????????
a veeerrry poor example to think of Beechwood as "typical town USA"
many of the kids who would'a been voted as all-stars prolly would have just hired another player to play for them anyway . . . .
& those who didn't get the nod . . . they could get out'a town to their Mediteranian summer home a few weeks earlier
a veeerrry poor example to think of Beechwood as "typical town USA"
many of the kids who would'a been voted as all-stars prolly would have just hired another player to play for them anyway . . . .
& those who didn't get the nod . . . they could get out'a town to their Mediteranian summer home a few weeks earlier
All this and at the end of the day, rec baseball offers baseball to everybody and doesn't turn away kids. Then there's all-stars for the more advanced kids at that age. Big deal. Let them play all-stars and the rec kids who want to play all-stars that bad will work on their game and get better. It's not like failing to make a 9-10 yr old all-star team is guarenteeing the kid fails to make high school ball. For the ones who don't ever become good ballplayers, then so what. It's not the end of the world if little Jonny sucks at baseball and should think about doing something else he may be good at or enjoy doing.
quote:Reply
I agree with everyone stating that this is just silly. My kids happen to be pretty good at baseball. Some parents have kids who are talented artists. My kids struggle with stick figures. When other kids have artwork displayed at the art fair my kids are not upset. They understand that their talents lie elsewhere. Be it baseball, music, math, or whatever, each kid has his own unique talents.
As far as all stars at younger ages, our league starts 'all-stars' at age 7. We are little league affiliated but all of the little leagues in town have friendship tournaments so we have a much larger number of all stars than the standard little league. At the 7-8 year old level about 25-30% of the kids play on an all star team. This year my 8 year old son's team only got 13 games in during the regular season and the post season tournament was cancelled due to weather. Now he will be able to play an additional 4 games due to all-stars. For some kids, 13 games was enough. For my son, he wanted to play more. Being the youngest of 3 boys he is well ahead of most boys at his age in development and understanding of the game. He should be. He was playing catch with son #2 while he was still in diapers. I am certain that the other kids will catch up but for now he really enjoys the additional game time and competition he gets from playing all stars. It would be sad to see that taken away from other kids like him.
I'm going to be the bad guy and SORT of agree with the Engh guy who wrote the book. I'm not agreeing with the whole self esteem issue but the all star stuff before age 11. Reason why is this is pretty personal to me and please read all this before bashing me.
To me the problem is kids are not being taught the game. Yeah the kids with most skill are because they are the ones who are getting picked for all stars, travel team, elite teams etc... Those kids get the game taught because of their advance skill. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. I have a problem with the kids who are a little behind or they don't have a strong interest in the game because they don't know it.
Think about it like this - you have a youth league with 10 teams and 11 players per team. So you now have a total of 110 players in this league. Let's say 15 make the all star team - now what about the other 95 kids who didn't make the team? Let's face it the regular season is geared towards doing what you have to do in order to be eligible for all star - so when is the game being taught?
Before age 11 they need to turn the scoreboards off and have coaches out on the field with the players. When a ball is put into play and the defense OR offense don't make the right play - stop the game and explain what is going on. Put two kids at each position so they can both see from the field perspective what is going on. About half way through the season turn them loose and let them play. I'm not saying modify the rules to where everyone bats, scores and all that stuff because that is not the game. Three outs - switch. Go for about hour and half and then go get ice cream as two teams.
The biggest problem isn't a kid getting his feelings hurt because he didn't get make the all star team - it's because you have coaches who have no clue and take the fun away. Bear with me on this one - I watched Bad News Bears with Billy Bob Thornton and Greg Kinnear last night. Both of them and Will Ferrell in the movie Kicking and Screaming went nuts as coaches trying to win "the championship". The reason why those movies exist is because they are true and they happen - granted the movies exaggerate but those characteristics do exist in every little league park, midget league football, midget league basketball and whatever sport you want to name.
When I walk past - I won't even sit down and watch anymore - a little league field all I hear from the adults (parents, coaches, fans) is you gotta win or do it right or don't embarass me. Talk about pressure - no wonder most of these 95 kids who don't make the all star team end up finding something else to do because at that moment their skill level isn't up to everyone else's expectations.
Two months ago I was leaving my field (high school field is a public park) and this woman who I barely know makes it a point to come over and tell me if the kids in her son's grade stay together then probably be state champs. Ok my school has never won a regional tournament but now this woman is proclaiming we will be state champs - I highly doubt it.
Now about the whole self esteem issue - if your kids feelings get hurt to where it actually stunts his emotional development then you FAILED AS A PARENT. Seriously getting cut from a high school sport or not making the all star team or whatever is not the end of the world. Now if you as a parent start telling your son / daughter they were cheated out of whatever then you have now hurt them emotionally because they won't know how to handle failure. You want to help alleveiate the pain from being cut then tell your kid to go out there and work harder and make themselves better - not just in baseball or sports but life. There isn't anything wrong in being good at other things in life besides sports but some parents fail at this.
Now the reason why it's personal to me - I was one of those 95 who got left out. I basically had to learn the game myself and from my dad who wouldn't coach me. I didn't make all star teams early on because I wasn't good enough but then later on I didn't make them because of the politics involved. But I kept working at it on my own because my dad sat me down and said if it's something you want make yourself good enough to take it out of their hands. I would go outside everyday and throw a ball against a wall and catch it. I would take 2 or 3 showers a day because I was so sweaty from working on ground balls.
Fast forward a couple of years and I am the starting catcher for my high school team and then I move on to college ball. Now I wasn't very good in college but I was on the team and I was a good team mate because I had a realistic perspective of what was going on.
I don't know what would have happened to me if I had received coaching back in the day but I do know some guys like me who gave it up because they got left behind by the adults. Just teach the game and the competitive stuff will take care of itself.
Maybe I have went off onto some weird tangents here but I can see where the Engh guy is comeing from to a small degree. Now just to base it on self esteem then you are doing the kids a disservice. If you teach the game and then sit them down and explain what is going on they will turn out much better.
Sorry but that is my $10 worth.
To me the problem is kids are not being taught the game. Yeah the kids with most skill are because they are the ones who are getting picked for all stars, travel team, elite teams etc... Those kids get the game taught because of their advance skill. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. I have a problem with the kids who are a little behind or they don't have a strong interest in the game because they don't know it.
Think about it like this - you have a youth league with 10 teams and 11 players per team. So you now have a total of 110 players in this league. Let's say 15 make the all star team - now what about the other 95 kids who didn't make the team? Let's face it the regular season is geared towards doing what you have to do in order to be eligible for all star - so when is the game being taught?
Before age 11 they need to turn the scoreboards off and have coaches out on the field with the players. When a ball is put into play and the defense OR offense don't make the right play - stop the game and explain what is going on. Put two kids at each position so they can both see from the field perspective what is going on. About half way through the season turn them loose and let them play. I'm not saying modify the rules to where everyone bats, scores and all that stuff because that is not the game. Three outs - switch. Go for about hour and half and then go get ice cream as two teams.
The biggest problem isn't a kid getting his feelings hurt because he didn't get make the all star team - it's because you have coaches who have no clue and take the fun away. Bear with me on this one - I watched Bad News Bears with Billy Bob Thornton and Greg Kinnear last night. Both of them and Will Ferrell in the movie Kicking and Screaming went nuts as coaches trying to win "the championship". The reason why those movies exist is because they are true and they happen - granted the movies exaggerate but those characteristics do exist in every little league park, midget league football, midget league basketball and whatever sport you want to name.
When I walk past - I won't even sit down and watch anymore - a little league field all I hear from the adults (parents, coaches, fans) is you gotta win or do it right or don't embarass me. Talk about pressure - no wonder most of these 95 kids who don't make the all star team end up finding something else to do because at that moment their skill level isn't up to everyone else's expectations.
Two months ago I was leaving my field (high school field is a public park) and this woman who I barely know makes it a point to come over and tell me if the kids in her son's grade stay together then probably be state champs. Ok my school has never won a regional tournament but now this woman is proclaiming we will be state champs - I highly doubt it.
Now about the whole self esteem issue - if your kids feelings get hurt to where it actually stunts his emotional development then you FAILED AS A PARENT. Seriously getting cut from a high school sport or not making the all star team or whatever is not the end of the world. Now if you as a parent start telling your son / daughter they were cheated out of whatever then you have now hurt them emotionally because they won't know how to handle failure. You want to help alleveiate the pain from being cut then tell your kid to go out there and work harder and make themselves better - not just in baseball or sports but life. There isn't anything wrong in being good at other things in life besides sports but some parents fail at this.
Now the reason why it's personal to me - I was one of those 95 who got left out. I basically had to learn the game myself and from my dad who wouldn't coach me. I didn't make all star teams early on because I wasn't good enough but then later on I didn't make them because of the politics involved. But I kept working at it on my own because my dad sat me down and said if it's something you want make yourself good enough to take it out of their hands. I would go outside everyday and throw a ball against a wall and catch it. I would take 2 or 3 showers a day because I was so sweaty from working on ground balls.
Fast forward a couple of years and I am the starting catcher for my high school team and then I move on to college ball. Now I wasn't very good in college but I was on the team and I was a good team mate because I had a realistic perspective of what was going on.
I don't know what would have happened to me if I had received coaching back in the day but I do know some guys like me who gave it up because they got left behind by the adults. Just teach the game and the competitive stuff will take care of itself.
Maybe I have went off onto some weird tangents here but I can see where the Engh guy is comeing from to a small degree. Now just to base it on self esteem then you are doing the kids a disservice. If you teach the game and then sit them down and explain what is going on they will turn out much better.
Sorry but that is my $10 worth.
The concept that the mayor is missing is that he is trying to teach the kids that life is fair and everyone should wins. I don't see what he thinks he's achieving, because why teach someone life is fair when it isn't?
I think there is more political correctness regarding sports than say, academics. For instance, at my son's middle school graduation several years back, they honored 10 or 15 kids from a variety of areas (academics, arts, and athletics) as recipients of those awards. The kids that got the academic awards were the smartest, the ones that got the arts awards were the best actors/musicians/artists. However, the kids who got the athletics awards were not the best players on the sports teams, but rather the kids who had the best attitudes in PE class.
People are always more politically correct with sports because many parents don't want to admit that their son is not quite good enough. Rather than crying over not making the all star teams, why don't the kids do everything they can to get better? That is the point that needs to be emphasized, not their lowered self-esteem.
I think there is more political correctness regarding sports than say, academics. For instance, at my son's middle school graduation several years back, they honored 10 or 15 kids from a variety of areas (academics, arts, and athletics) as recipients of those awards. The kids that got the academic awards were the smartest, the ones that got the arts awards were the best actors/musicians/artists. However, the kids who got the athletics awards were not the best players on the sports teams, but rather the kids who had the best attitudes in PE class.
People are always more politically correct with sports because many parents don't want to admit that their son is not quite good enough. Rather than crying over not making the all star teams, why don't the kids do everything they can to get better? That is the point that needs to be emphasized, not their lowered self-esteem.
After reading the article, I got the impression that this guy was talking about the all-star game that is often held at the end of the season, not summer all-star competition. Some leagues have each manager pick two or three kids to participate in an All-Star game made up of only kids from that league.
They all wear their regular team uniform, not an all-star uniform.
I believe this type of game is what the Mayor cancelled.
The league my son played in never even had one of these games but they did have all-star tryouts and summer teams. Because we had no all-star game, nobody even missed it. No parent ever suggested we have one or ask why we didn't.
We were a large league that was competitive at all-star time but non competitive during rec ball. The regular season had no champion. No won-loss records were kept by the league. Pitchers could only pitch three innings in a game through April. No regular season trophies were handed out except for participation trophies.
At the end of the regular season each team would participate in a double elimination tournament. That is when it would get competitive for the rec players who weren't going to make all-stars.
Coach2709, it has been my experience that the faster you get the coaches off the field during games, the better it is for everyone involved.
Eleven year old kids do not need coaches on the field during games. That is what practices and scrimmages are for. I would say, don't sell them short. They look forward to getting on the field by themselves more than anything else so let them compete without coaches manipulating the action.
The more power a coach has to manipulate the game the more he will do it. Coaches should be off the field during games as soon as possible.
It is also true that you could hold the hand of many rec players until they are 15 years old and they still would have no talent for the game. In fact, most of those types of kids find out that the game gets hard very quickly when they get older. They bow out on their own.
Every coach, teacher, boss or whatever gravitates to the most promising talent and gives more to them than the less talented ones. With time as limited as it is for youth coaches, it is a fact of life that the rich(talented) will get richer(more talented).
Our league also did something that most leagues are now doing. If there was enough interest, a "B" All-Star team would be formed for kids who were 13-24 on the talent list.
They all wear their regular team uniform, not an all-star uniform.
I believe this type of game is what the Mayor cancelled.
The league my son played in never even had one of these games but they did have all-star tryouts and summer teams. Because we had no all-star game, nobody even missed it. No parent ever suggested we have one or ask why we didn't.
We were a large league that was competitive at all-star time but non competitive during rec ball. The regular season had no champion. No won-loss records were kept by the league. Pitchers could only pitch three innings in a game through April. No regular season trophies were handed out except for participation trophies.
At the end of the regular season each team would participate in a double elimination tournament. That is when it would get competitive for the rec players who weren't going to make all-stars.
Coach2709, it has been my experience that the faster you get the coaches off the field during games, the better it is for everyone involved.
Eleven year old kids do not need coaches on the field during games. That is what practices and scrimmages are for. I would say, don't sell them short. They look forward to getting on the field by themselves more than anything else so let them compete without coaches manipulating the action.
The more power a coach has to manipulate the game the more he will do it. Coaches should be off the field during games as soon as possible.
It is also true that you could hold the hand of many rec players until they are 15 years old and they still would have no talent for the game. In fact, most of those types of kids find out that the game gets hard very quickly when they get older. They bow out on their own.
Every coach, teacher, boss or whatever gravitates to the most promising talent and gives more to them than the less talented ones. With time as limited as it is for youth coaches, it is a fact of life that the rich(talented) will get richer(more talented).
Our league also did something that most leagues are now doing. If there was enough interest, a "B" All-Star team would be formed for kids who were 13-24 on the talent list.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
wow, a self esteem issue??????????
a veeerrry poor example to think of Beechwood as "typical town USA"
many of the kids who would'a been voted as all-stars prolly would have just hired another player to play for them anyway . . . .
& those who didn't get the nod . . . they could get out'a town to their Mediteranian summer home a few weeks earlier
or lunch at Moxie's
I continue to sttand by my unpopular opinion that it all justs starts too early. Let kids be kids. It has nothing to do with self esteem, in my book, it is just that there is too much seriousness and win at all costs attitudes at too early of an age. I am speaking of 8U or machine pitch and T-Ball. Kids in that age bracket should not be worrying about whether or not life is "fair". A little fellow standing in the outfield showing more interest in bugs and butterflies does not mean he will not smeday be the center fielder of the New York Yankees. And, because another little guy knows how to accurately throw a ball from the mound to first base, it does not make him an all star. Rec. baseball at this age is NOT about "working your butt off". It's about learning how to enjoy this great game and fighting for a coke or ice cream cone when its all over.
Puma,
I think we are all in agreement that in T-ball and 8U, all-stars shouldn't exist and it's not about life lessons. We are talking about 9-12 all-stars, primarily 12 years old. Some of the older 12 year olds are one year away from high school. It's is COMPLETELY different for 12 year olds, and T-ballers.
I think we are all in agreement that in T-ball and 8U, all-stars shouldn't exist and it's not about life lessons. We are talking about 9-12 all-stars, primarily 12 years old. Some of the older 12 year olds are one year away from high school. It's is COMPLETELY different for 12 year olds, and T-ballers.
This is against everything our country is based on.
If myself and another rep from a competing company decide we don't want to compete and offer like pricing, we will end up in federal prison.
What are we really teaching our kids?
If myself and another rep from a competing company decide we don't want to compete and offer like pricing, we will end up in federal prison.
What are we really teaching our kids?
Dear old dad I am not trying to be a jerk here but you totally missed my point and it was because I probably didn't explain myself that well.
First I agree that coaches need to be off the field and let kids play. I agree that age 11 is the age they should be left to play on their own.
What I am saying is before age 11 the coaches need to be on the field instructing players in what to do. This is where they learn the game and the only people to do it are the coaches. Sometimes you have a great dad who does a lot at home but let's face it - there are a lot of dads who cannot / will not teach their kid the game.
Please correct me if I am wrong but you make it sound like coaches are a bad thing.
When I coach I take the preseason and teach my guys what the need to do to be successful and then let them take over. During the season I make the decisions I have to make but other than that I let them go.
I just think we are limiting our talent pool to choose from and developing kids by having all star (or whatever you want to call it) at such an early age.
All I am saying is teach the game.
First I agree that coaches need to be off the field and let kids play. I agree that age 11 is the age they should be left to play on their own.
What I am saying is before age 11 the coaches need to be on the field instructing players in what to do. This is where they learn the game and the only people to do it are the coaches. Sometimes you have a great dad who does a lot at home but let's face it - there are a lot of dads who cannot / will not teach their kid the game.
Please correct me if I am wrong but you make it sound like coaches are a bad thing.
quote:The more power a coach has to manipulate the game the more he will do it.
When I coach I take the preseason and teach my guys what the need to do to be successful and then let them take over. During the season I make the decisions I have to make but other than that I let them go.
I just think we are limiting our talent pool to choose from and developing kids by having all star (or whatever you want to call it) at such an early age.
All I am saying is teach the game.
quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
If myself and another rep from a competing company decide we don't want to compete and offer like pricing, we will end up in federal prison.
Should the owner of a gas station A sell his gas on Thurs for $3.99 per gallon, then come in after the weekend on Mon morning and notice the competing gas station across the street selling at $4.18 per gallon, and the owner A raise prices to $4.17,
neither will go to prison (unless it can be proven than each spoke about the gas price increase).
Obviously, you are NOT an attorney, judge, or an owner of a gas station! QED
I certainly understand Coach2709's point, and I tend to agree with a lot of it. Leaving the 95 players out of post season isn't a great thing, and is unnecessary.
Our Little League district has each league form all star teams from its 9-10 year olds and its 11-12 year olds. They of course play the district tournaments, and if they win, go on to state.
But each age group also forms two other post season teams, called "Honors" teams. They, too play a post season tournament that basically mimics the all star district tournament.
This basically allows any kid who wants to play post season to be on a team. Lots of kids don't - their families want to take vacations, or do other stuff.
It works out very well. A lot of kids get the chance to compete in post season, and those honors teams have every bit as much fun trying to win their tournaments as do the all star teams.
All that said, I am of the way of thinking that says 10 year olds love to compete, and their tender psyches are able to withstand the horror of both not making the all star team.
Our Little League district has each league form all star teams from its 9-10 year olds and its 11-12 year olds. They of course play the district tournaments, and if they win, go on to state.
But each age group also forms two other post season teams, called "Honors" teams. They, too play a post season tournament that basically mimics the all star district tournament.
This basically allows any kid who wants to play post season to be on a team. Lots of kids don't - their families want to take vacations, or do other stuff.
It works out very well. A lot of kids get the chance to compete in post season, and those honors teams have every bit as much fun trying to win their tournaments as do the all star teams.
All that said, I am of the way of thinking that says 10 year olds love to compete, and their tender psyches are able to withstand the horror of both not making the all star team.
We have all heard the competition thing. It is all about competition. sooner or later our young people are going to have to realize that they have to produce. As far as all star teams when? I remember seeing a kid around 5 years old with a t shirt saying such and such organization t ball all star. a liitle over the top?
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
Please correct me if I am wrong but you make it sound like coaches are a bad thing.quote:The more power a coach has to manipulate the game the more he will do it.
Coach2709, I think we are in agreement on coaches. This is what you said about them in your other post:
"The biggest problem isn't a kid getting his feelings hurt because he didn't get make the all star team - it's because you have coaches who have no clue and take the fun away. Bear with me on this one - I watched Bad News Bears with Billy Bob Thornton and Greg Kinnear last night. Both of them and Will Ferrell in the movie Kicking and Screaming went nuts as coaches trying to win "the championship". The reason why those movies exist is because they are true and they happen - granted the movies exaggerate but those characteristics do exist in every little league park, midget league football, midget league basketball and whatever sport you want to name.
When I walk past - I won't even sit down and watch anymore - a little league field all I hear from the adults (parents, coaches, fans) is you gotta win or do it right or don't embarass me. Talk about pressure - no wonder most of these 95 kids who don't make the all star team end up finding something else to do because at that moment their skill level isn't up to everyone else's expectations."
I have seen coaches do whatever they can to give their team an advantage. If you want the coaches on the field through age ten, than get rid of the umpires, scorebooks and uniforms. My eight year old rec team was just fine being on the field by themselves. As were the teams we played against. Waiting until 11 would be doing the kids, all the kids a disservice.
For all the people who think the all-star process is harsh in baseball. Try putting your child in gymnastics and see how that goes. I have posted this before but a child in gymnastics who is not good enough to make the team will never get to compete. Ever. There is no rec league for a weak gymnast to go to. Get good enough to make the team or spend your days only practicing.
Youth baseball bends over backwards to give everyone a chance to feel like a star. It is important that we don't hurt the most talented kids in the process. By holding everyone back until 11 years old we hurt the kids who want to be there the most.
And Coach2709, I too was one of the 95 kids who didn't make all-stars when I was 12. My dad had no time for sports except to watch bowling on Saturday afternoons. I played stickball in the summer and bummed around all day. Didn't we all back then?
I view all this with a different set of glasses and they are not rose colored
When I was a kid, way back when, we had made our own field in a corner lot, we cut it and groomed it ourselves---we devised all sorts of games if we had less than the needed 18 players for a regular game---we had invisible runners, yes we had great imaginations--- we had no umpires---we had do overs and no fights---we laso played punchball in the streets in front of our house---we played Stoop Ball" ---we played stickball either in the street or at the local school off the wall
One thing we did not do was just "bum around"---that meant trouble with Dad
It may sound corney but I the times for kids back then were better than they are now
Do kids knock on their buddies door and yell "Cmon it is game time"
We had neighborhood events and we, as kids, crested them as we competed with other neighborhoods---no trophies involved---just pride for you neighborhood and we had no age limits---just made sure if the other team had two teens so did we---we had 8 year olds playing ion the field with teens---and no self esteem problems---this is how kids got better---many days the 8 year olds were the first ones to arrive at the field
Today we pamper the kids and they are all becoming soft
When I was a kid, way back when, we had made our own field in a corner lot, we cut it and groomed it ourselves---we devised all sorts of games if we had less than the needed 18 players for a regular game---we had invisible runners, yes we had great imaginations--- we had no umpires---we had do overs and no fights---we laso played punchball in the streets in front of our house---we played Stoop Ball" ---we played stickball either in the street or at the local school off the wall
One thing we did not do was just "bum around"---that meant trouble with Dad
It may sound corney but I the times for kids back then were better than they are now
Do kids knock on their buddies door and yell "Cmon it is game time"
We had neighborhood events and we, as kids, crested them as we competed with other neighborhoods---no trophies involved---just pride for you neighborhood and we had no age limits---just made sure if the other team had two teens so did we---we had 8 year olds playing ion the field with teens---and no self esteem problems---this is how kids got better---many days the 8 year olds were the first ones to arrive at the field
Today we pamper the kids and they are all becoming soft
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
One thing we did not do was just "bum around"---that meant trouble with Dad
TR, everything you said you did as a kid I did too. The neighborhood games, gutterball, kickball. It's all just bumming around. Not bumming around meant you had a job or were at a camp. That's what I meant. A couple of kids I knew went off to military camp in the summer. I was a member of the Boys Club so I did some day trips with them.
I used to dread my dad's vacation because he would put me to work around the house. At 77 years old, work is still his favorite pastime.
Not bumming around meant you were doing something constructive, not playing with your friends. At least that's the definition my parents had.
TR, I have no doubt you would have fit into my neighborhood perfectly, or me yours.
The life and times of TR as a chld is what the boys of todays world need. Competition that comes from within that is no way invovlved in our parents hopes and dreams. A work ethic coming from wanting to gain the acceptance that will make a Saturday afternoon a little better. Its the joy of playing for the fun of it, not to be an All Star. The difference between College and Pro...being part of and contributing to something bigger than themselves because of a love for the game and their team. Thats what I'm talking about!
quote:Originally posted by Bear:quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
If myself and another rep from a competing company decide we don't want to compete and offer like pricing, we will end up in federal prison.
Should the owner of a gas station A sell his gas on Thurs for $3.99 per gallon, then come in after the weekend on Mon morning and notice the competing gas station across the street selling at $4.18 per gallon, and the owner A raise prices to $4.17,
neither will go to prison (unless it can be proven than each spoke about the gas price increase).
Obviously, you are NOT an attorney, judge, or an owner of a gas station! QED
You are correct; I am not an Attorney, Judge, nor do I own a gas station. I am however a professional Sales Manager. I do Know that Sarbanes Oxley laws require companies to legitimately compete.
My point was, our country is based on competitiveness; maybe the Mayor in question should decide competition would not be good in the next election. It should be the other party's turn to represent the mayors office.
Excellent point! I just wrote a letter to him. Got his email address off the website where the article is. I didn't quote anyone here, but told him that he is taking away from both the kids who are on the team as well as the ones who were not.
TR,
You will be happy to hear that your childhood is being relived in my area of Omaha, NE. My kids are always outside looking for a game of some kind. They put together baseball, football, wallball(no idea, they made it up)and a myriad of other games involving a ball and a handful of boys. We have a lot of boys ranging in age from 8-11 and they all play together. My 8 year old does and has always played with his brother who is 2 1/2 years older. As the youngest of 3 boys he is ultra competitive. He does not want to be outdone by his brothers.
You will be happy to hear that your childhood is being relived in my area of Omaha, NE. My kids are always outside looking for a game of some kind. They put together baseball, football, wallball(no idea, they made it up)and a myriad of other games involving a ball and a handful of boys. We have a lot of boys ranging in age from 8-11 and they all play together. My 8 year old does and has always played with his brother who is 2 1/2 years older. As the youngest of 3 boys he is ultra competitive. He does not want to be outdone by his brothers.
quote:The life and times of TR as a chld is what the boys of todays world need.
I experienced the same thing. I really dont know if you gave a bunch a kids a bat and a ball and said play they would know what to do. Seems they always hae some adult telling them what to do when to do it etc.
We used to pick our own teams and you know the better guys got picked first and the lesser guys last. could that be a self esteem issue? and we did not count pitches or innings pitched. I remember one kid was pretty good threw hard. Seems he pitched all the time. If only we had made a rule. everybody was eligible no cut off dates for birthdays. We used to have a saying "your chucked"
it meant you were playing so bad you were thrown off the team. cold I suppose but we dealt with it.
quote:When I was a kid, way back when, we had made our own field in a corner lot, we cut it and groomed it ourselves---we devised all sorts of games if we had less than the needed 18 players for a regular game---we had invisible runners, yes we had great imaginations--- we had no umpires---we had do overs and no fights---we also played punchball in the streets in front of our house---we played Stoop Ball" ---we played stickball either in the street or at the local school off the wall
quote:The life and times of TR as a chld is what the boys of todays world need. Competition that comes from within that is no way invovlved in our parents hopes and dreams. A work ethic coming from wanting to gain the acceptance that will make a Saturday afternoon a little better.
..........great quotes! Great core values!!
I do Know that Sarbanes Oxley laws require companies to legitimately compete.quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
...... My point was, our country is based on competitiveness; [/QUOTE]
Oh My Goodness,
SOX is in response to a number of crooks from major corporations, accounting and sales scandals.
It shook my confidence in security markets and American business practices and ethics.
What exactly has the PCAOB done lately?
The Act Does NOT apply to privately held companies.
Those officials at Enron, Tyco International, Adelphia, Peregrine Systems and WorldCom took many pensions & retirement and are now in jail (and
need to stay there.)
quote:Originally posted by Bear:I do Know that Sarbanes Oxley laws require companies to legitimately compete.quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
...... My point was, our country is based on competitiveness;
Oh My Goodness,
SOX is in response to a number of crooks from major corporations, accounting and sales scandals.
It shook my confidence in security markets and American business practices and ethics.
What exactly has the PCAOB done lately?
The Act Does NOT apply to privately held companies.
Those officials at Enron, Tyco International, Adelphia, Peregrine Systems and WorldCom took many pensions & retirement and are now in jail (and
need to stay there.)[/QUOTE]
Bear,
You are STILL missing my point. This is not a political or economic message board... but what I was speaking to is everything about our country is based on competitiveness: Capitalism, politics, education (getting into college), and sports!
As I said, that mayor needs to allow his opposing party their turn in office the next time around.
If I used an analogy you didn't feel fit this situation, I am sorry for the personal attack.
Cancelling All-Stars was wrong in every way! That is all I meant.
We can chat another time about proper business practices.
quote:Originally posted by JT:
I think we should all march up their and torch their river/lake again.
More than surface knowledge
by D'Arcy Egan, Plain Dealer Columnist Saturday July 12, 2008, 8:03 AM
D'Arcy Egan/The Plain Dealer
Capt. Peg Van Vleet of Blue Sky Charters nets a walleye for Ohio Sea Grant Director Dr. Jeffrey Reutter while fishing on Governor's Fish Ohio Day recently on Lake Erie. Reutter considers it the most important of the Great Lakes.
"I heard Lake Erie is the place fish go to die." -Johnny Carson, comedian, 1976
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Port Clinton -- When Dr. Jeffrey Reutter presents his Lake Erie show to groups, he likes to flash Johnny Carson's joke on the screen. It wasn't true then. It certainly is not true these days.
"You can make a very effective case that Lake Erie is the most important lake in the world," said Reutter, director of Ohio Sea Grant and Stone Laboratory for Ohio State University. "It would be difficult to find a lake used by so many people for so many things."
Reutter and I spent a morning on the expansive inland sea, casting for walleye during the recent Governor's Fish Ohio Day. It was a very enlightening few hours, especially for someone who thought he knew a great deal about Lake Erie.
Here are five things Reutter said most people don't know about Lake Erie, and he is happy to tell them.
1.) Lake Erie is the most important of the Great Lakes
It has the largest freshwater commercial fishery in the world. Lake Erie provides drinking water for 11 million people in four states and a Canadian province. It has 20 power plants along its shoreline.
More goods are shipped from Ohio ports each year than through the Suez Canal. It has more anglers, boaters and crowded beaches -- warm water in summer makes it a great place to play -- and more industry than any of the other Great Lakes. More than 40 percent of the Great Lakes charter fishing fleet docks on Lake Erie.
2.) Lake Erie was not a "dead lake" when the Cuyahoga River burned in 1969
In 1969, Lake Erie commercial and sport fishermen caught more fish than were harvested in the other four Great Lakes combined. Lake Superior has 50 percent of the water mass of the Great Lakes and 2 percent of the fish. Lake Erie has 2 percent of the water mass and 50 percent of the fish.
3.) The upper Great Lakes keep Lake Erie on the move
About 80 percent of the water in Lake Erie flows in from the Detroit River, arriving from the upper Great Lakes. Another 10 percent flows into Lake Erie from its tributaries. Only 10 percent of its water is from direct precipitation. Lake Erie's water races over Niagara Falls and on to Lake Ontario, down the St. Lawrence River and into the Atlantic Ocean.
4.) Lake Erie may look great, but it is not becoming cleaner and more pristine each year
The Lake Erie ecosystem was in decline until 1970. It was stable from 1970 to 1975, and improving from 1975 to about 1995. Since 1995, it has been getting worse. The main culprit is sedimentation flowing from its tributaries, primarily the Maumee River, bringing an increase in nutrients and phosphorous that degrade the water we drink and can shrink the schools of fish we catch.
Agricultural fertilizer and animal waste are the chief offenders. They are followed by trillions of quagga mussels, a filter-feeding invasive species that spit out much more phosphorous than their cousin, the zebra mussel. Add to that phosphate load the deep-water dead zone in the center of the lake, where phosphate-enriched algae dies, sinks to the bottom and decomposes, pulling life-giving oxygen from the lake.
Ohio banned phosphate in laundry detergent in 1990, but cities are now adding phosphorous into drinking water to prevent corrosion in pipes. Even the resurgence of mayflies has been troublesome, because phosphorous is released as they burrow into the lake bottom.
5.) Toxins do not hang around for long in Lake Erie
The shallow waters of Lake Erie that make it so fertile and productive also allow it to flush itself every three years. In comparison, it takes nature more than 100 years to replace the water of Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. Things happen quickly around Lake Erie.
To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
degan@plaind.com, 216-999-5158
http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2008/07/mor...rface_knowledge.html
quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
Bear,
You are STILL missing my point. This is not a political or economic message board... but what I was speaking to is everything about our country is based on competitiveness: Capitalism, politics, education (getting into college), and sports!
As I said, that mayor needs to allow his opposing party their turn in office the next time around.
If I used an analogy you didn't feel fit this situation, I am sorry for the personal attack.
Cancelling All-Stars was wrong in every way! That is all I meant.
We can chat another time about proper business practices.
Did you miss the chad count?
10 % probably do not get the memo.