Just picking your brains fellas (and ladies)...
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Get there if you can't induce a grounder or pop up first. 
The approach with 0-2 varies with the hitter, the pitcher, the game situation and the pitches used to get to 0-2.
In general I like the fastball at the top of the strike zone or just above it.
The approach with 0-2 varies with the hitter, the pitcher, the game situation and the pitches used to get to 0-2.
In general I like the fastball at the top of the strike zone or just above it.
I believe in the every 3rd pitch should be different so all it depends on how you got to 0-2 , I have found my Son who is a very good pitcher has trouble when trying to place an 0-2 pitch high. He prefers down in the dirt
Depends on the guy's strenghts and weaknessess. I am more of a throw high heat kind of guy when it comes to me on the mound. But at the plate, I actually have a harder time laying off the breaking ball in the dirt than the high heat.
It depends on the quality of the hitter and the quality of my pitcher. The situation in the game. What did he throw to get him down 0-2. And how did he react to those pitches. He could have hit them both out of the park foul or he could have been totally overmatched. Too many varibles for me to say.
My philosophy was always to do the best I could to not got 0-3
In general( non pitch around situation) get the hitter out with the next pitch.( with contact or a by striking the hitter out if the situation calls for it) Why is a quality strike not just as good on 0-2 as it is on 1-2?
With an 0-2 strike you'll avoid the following scenario that we see all too often: Waste pitch 0-2(really a wasted pitch) because the coach wants no 0-2 balls hit hard. The pitcher ends up throwing a totally non competitive pitch(10' chain link fastball or a 55'breaking ball that the hitter rarely chashes because it requires no decision making from the because it is an obvious ball right out of the pitcher's hand)Then on the 1-2 pitch, after satisfying the coach, the pitcher tries to throw a fine strike, but his strike throwing release point has been negatively affected by the 0-2 "wasted pitch" & he can't find the zone with the 1-2 pitch. Now it's 2-2 & the pitcher is thinking "I don't want to go 3-2" & with that negative mindset he throw ball 3 to take the count to 3-2. Now the negative mindset takes the pitcher a step further to "I can't walk this hitter" which is followed by ball 4 & every infielder puts his head down or tells the pitcher to"just throw strikes" or "just hit your target." Just what the pitcher wants to hear.
If a quality pitch gets hit on 0-2 as opposed to that 6 pitch walk, you have saved 3 pitches & your defense is positive & focused.
IMO aggressively go after hitters on 0-2 counts. The laws of averages will work in your favor if you do.
JW
With an 0-2 strike you'll avoid the following scenario that we see all too often: Waste pitch 0-2(really a wasted pitch) because the coach wants no 0-2 balls hit hard. The pitcher ends up throwing a totally non competitive pitch(10' chain link fastball or a 55'breaking ball that the hitter rarely chashes because it requires no decision making from the because it is an obvious ball right out of the pitcher's hand)Then on the 1-2 pitch, after satisfying the coach, the pitcher tries to throw a fine strike, but his strike throwing release point has been negatively affected by the 0-2 "wasted pitch" & he can't find the zone with the 1-2 pitch. Now it's 2-2 & the pitcher is thinking "I don't want to go 3-2" & with that negative mindset he throw ball 3 to take the count to 3-2. Now the negative mindset takes the pitcher a step further to "I can't walk this hitter" which is followed by ball 4 & every infielder puts his head down or tells the pitcher to"just throw strikes" or "just hit your target." Just what the pitcher wants to hear.
If a quality pitch gets hit on 0-2 as opposed to that 6 pitch walk, you have saved 3 pitches & your defense is positive & focused.
IMO aggressively go after hitters on 0-2 counts. The laws of averages will work in your favor if you do.
JW
Jerry,
Glad to hear you say that.
It doesn't get any more dominating than a three pitch strike out. Why go 1-2, it's exactly the same situation to the hitter. In fact, I actually think hitters are more likely to take strike three on the black at 0-2 than 1-2. Most hitters are mentally in somewhat of a take mode at 0-2.
I think the problem is that people make too big a deal about giving up a hit on 0-2. Instead of realizing hits can come in every count. Overall less hits will come from 0-2 count strikes or quality pitches than any other count. Why waste that gigantic advantage.
Glad to hear you say that.
It doesn't get any more dominating than a three pitch strike out. Why go 1-2, it's exactly the same situation to the hitter. In fact, I actually think hitters are more likely to take strike three on the black at 0-2 than 1-2. Most hitters are mentally in somewhat of a take mode at 0-2.
I think the problem is that people make too big a deal about giving up a hit on 0-2. Instead of realizing hits can come in every count. Overall less hits will come from 0-2 count strikes or quality pitches than any other count. Why waste that gigantic advantage.
I really like what both the last couple posts have said. You still go after the hitter 0-2 but you have the luxury of picking or being a little bit fine with the location. Its an agressive good/bad pitch. (maybe 4-5"off the black. I was looking for more of the swinging strikeout 0-2 then the called. A hitter is taught to shorten up and protect with two strikes so I was trying to make him get himself out with a border line pitch he was trying to protect on. Via the groundball on a bad swing or the K. It just don't matter. An out is an out.. Too many guys in todays game think they have to strike everyone out..
This is imo also the time pitchers have to establish the inside part of the plate with the FB. Its my thoughts that a huge part of pitching comes down to if a pitcher has the ability to keep the hitters thinking in. If a hitter knows you won't come in, your most likly calling it an early day. Notice its not an 0-2 hit him, its an 0-2 purpose pitch to let the oppossing team know that I am going to battle you inside to make you work harder for the outside part of the plate.
This is imo also the time pitchers have to establish the inside part of the plate with the FB. Its my thoughts that a huge part of pitching comes down to if a pitcher has the ability to keep the hitters thinking in. If a hitter knows you won't come in, your most likly calling it an early day. Notice its not an 0-2 hit him, its an 0-2 purpose pitch to let the oppossing team know that I am going to battle you inside to make you work harder for the outside part of the plate.
Last summer seen a pitcher throw the 0-2 over the back stop. (no runner's on base)
Really agree with Sparky about going in with 2 strikes. Lots of hitting coaches get hitters focusing away & tell them not to be out in front with 2 strikes leaving them extremely vulnerable to fastballs in.
I myself prefer to go up and in or down and in with a 2 seam fastball on 0-2
My opinion is that you pitch according to batters weakness regardless of count. This assumes the pitcher has mare than 1 pitch that is working that inning. I do prefer you stay out of the zone. I like the pitch to cut across the front corner of the plate as oppossed to crossing the plate front to back. This pulls the batter of his balance and gets him reaching.
I like the idea of going inside, but only with a pitcher who has outstanding command.
The last thing I want to see is a hitter getting plunked on an 0-2 count. Actually have seen my son do that a couple times.
Again depending on the pitcher, I like the hard slider or 2-seamer on the paint outside. I've seen that pitch taken for strike 3 many times. That's if the pitcher has a real good one.
I do believe that that a pitcher with good stuff should be looking for the K with an 0-2 count.
The last thing I want to see is a hitter getting plunked on an 0-2 count. Actually have seen my son do that a couple times.
Again depending on the pitcher, I like the hard slider or 2-seamer on the paint outside. I've seen that pitch taken for strike 3 many times. That's if the pitcher has a real good one.
I do believe that that a pitcher with good stuff should be looking for the K with an 0-2 count.
PG
That is why the #1 priority in pitch calling is pitching to the pitcher's strength & not the hitter's weakness. If they match up great. If not there is nothing wrong with going strength vs. strength. As a matter of fact, I think that you get hitters out with their pitch more often than any other pitch.
If your pitcher's strength is a low fastball & the hitter's strength is a low fastball, throw that low fastball within the hitter's swing zone but outside his solid contact zone.
Last year 68% of all fairly hit balls in the ML were outs.The law of average great favors the pitcher when the ball is put into play.
JW
That is why the #1 priority in pitch calling is pitching to the pitcher's strength & not the hitter's weakness. If they match up great. If not there is nothing wrong with going strength vs. strength. As a matter of fact, I think that you get hitters out with their pitch more often than any other pitch.
If your pitcher's strength is a low fastball & the hitter's strength is a low fastball, throw that low fastball within the hitter's swing zone but outside his solid contact zone.
Last year 68% of all fairly hit balls in the ML were outs.The law of average great favors the pitcher when the ball is put into play.
JW
JW what happened to the other 32% ?
You definetly go to the pitchers strength but I like working the batters weakness. Way too many hits given up on 0-2 counts with pitchers trying to be too cute.
You definetly go to the pitchers strength but I like working the batters weakness. Way too many hits given up on 0-2 counts with pitchers trying to be too cute.
Based on 146,000 at bats in 2006 the 0-2 batting average was .167, on base % was .178 & slugging % was .244. I know, what were the 1-2 #'s? OPS was .465 & with every pitch you throw after 0-2 the stats increasingly favor the hitter.There are very few good 2 strike hitters at any level. IMO conserve pitches & get them out in a hurry.
JW
JW
I wish there were more threads on this site like this one.
0-2. Like I posted earlier I dont have a philosophy etched in stone on what to throw etc because every situation is different. The quality of the pitcher that day vs the quality of the hitter at the plate at the time. The score , runners on base or not , what inning is it etc.
But what I will say is I hate waist pitches. They serve no purpose in my opinion but to let the hitter back in the ab.
IN HS
Here is what you see many times on 0-2 counts. The pitcher throw a meaningless pitch way out of the zone that is not close enough to threaten the batter. He takes it now it is 1-2. The pitcher then tries to paint a pitch because he is still up 1-2 and knew he had him 0-2. He misses off the plate and now you have a 2-2 count. The pitcher does not want to go 3-2 to a batter he had down 0-2 so he catches too much plate and the hitter knowing that the pitcher does not want to go 3-2 to a hitter he had down 0-2 is ready for it.
Alot of hitters lose their aggressive demeanor when they are down 0-2. They become defensive. Go after the hitter when he is most vulnerable. That is my philosophy. Too many coaches hammer pitchers who give up 0-2 hits. The pitcher can become passive when he should be attacking up in the count.
I teach my hitters to be very aggressive early in the count on pitches around the zone. If they get down in the count I teach them to be selective and look outer half away. It works for us.
0-2. Like I posted earlier I dont have a philosophy etched in stone on what to throw etc because every situation is different. The quality of the pitcher that day vs the quality of the hitter at the plate at the time. The score , runners on base or not , what inning is it etc.
But what I will say is I hate waist pitches. They serve no purpose in my opinion but to let the hitter back in the ab.
IN HS
Here is what you see many times on 0-2 counts. The pitcher throw a meaningless pitch way out of the zone that is not close enough to threaten the batter. He takes it now it is 1-2. The pitcher then tries to paint a pitch because he is still up 1-2 and knew he had him 0-2. He misses off the plate and now you have a 2-2 count. The pitcher does not want to go 3-2 to a batter he had down 0-2 so he catches too much plate and the hitter knowing that the pitcher does not want to go 3-2 to a hitter he had down 0-2 is ready for it.
Alot of hitters lose their aggressive demeanor when they are down 0-2. They become defensive. Go after the hitter when he is most vulnerable. That is my philosophy. Too many coaches hammer pitchers who give up 0-2 hits. The pitcher can become passive when he should be attacking up in the count.
I teach my hitters to be very aggressive early in the count on pitches around the zone. If they get down in the count I teach them to be selective and look outer half away. It works for us.
JW that also includses guys who cahse balls out of the zone. A guy who is batting with an 0-2 count is very likely to chase a slider or a CB that moves inside out and down.
The stats are interesting and as in all stats they are interesting in a general over all way of looking at things but it doesn't reflect for eg the type of pitch thrown and where it was in relationship to the zone.
I agree that batters who get 0-2 counts are in a bad situation and likey to strike out or get out on the play.
The stats are interesting and as in all stats they are interesting in a general over all way of looking at things but it doesn't reflect for eg the type of pitch thrown and where it was in relationship to the zone.
I agree that batters who get 0-2 counts are in a bad situation and likey to strike out or get out on the play.
IMO you try to get the hitter out with every pitch you throw no matter what the count.If it's a pitch around situation, it has to be the right kind of out.
No doubt that an 0-2 chase can meet the criteria.The key for me is to throw competitive pitch on 0-2 counts.My definition of a competitive pitch is a pitch that requires the hitter to make a decision whether to swing or not. Pitches that are so far out of the strike zone that they are obvious balls do not meet the criteria. IMO the ball has to go through the strike zone or share air space with pitch that will go through the strike zone for at least the 1st 20' of ball flight.
JW
No doubt that an 0-2 chase can meet the criteria.The key for me is to throw competitive pitch on 0-2 counts.My definition of a competitive pitch is a pitch that requires the hitter to make a decision whether to swing or not. Pitches that are so far out of the strike zone that they are obvious balls do not meet the criteria. IMO the ball has to go through the strike zone or share air space with pitch that will go through the strike zone for at least the 1st 20' of ball flight.
JW
repeating mostly what has been said, but get the out! I don't believe in waste pitches, every pitch is thrown to get an out. you go 1-2, then 2-2, now you wonder "should I have just gone after him?" we have a "pitch to contact philosophy, so how we got to 0-2 could determine the pitch....though I do like FB high and in or low, bottom of knees low, or obviously the off speed in the dirt, but I think thats basic. again, how did you get to 0-2??
I agree with JW all the way. The 0-2 pitch has to be made with the intention of getting the out. (unless your making an inside pupose pitch) What the 0-2 pitch is and where it is thrown matters much on the situation of the game, the hitter, what and where I threw my last pitch and what my next pitch is going to be..
Totally agree with that.
Thanks for all the good thoughts shared fellas. Last year we hit 2 batters with 0-2 pitches, both in crucial times of games... that's why I started the thread... to hear some of your ideas.
I won't have an 'etched in stone' philosophy; but I will work with my guys and we will bullpen 0-2 and we will play some 0-2 scrimmage innings...
I won't have an 'etched in stone' philosophy; but I will work with my guys and we will bullpen 0-2 and we will play some 0-2 scrimmage innings...
i dont like the high heat on 0 and 2 and the reason is location..If it Ain"t high enuf your in trouble...
i would tend to use a changeup low and outside or a curve low and out..move the infield over accordingly
i would tend to use a changeup low and outside or a curve low and out..move the infield over accordingly
IMO we do not pitch up enough. We have created a generation of low ball hitters. Everyone is geared to hit the ball down.The ball up is a great pressure zone(chase)location as a complement for pitchers who throw breaking balls that start up & end in the zone. This is especially true if their spin axis is the same.Hitters will swing at fastballs or up thinking that they are breaking balls or splitters.
The ball up forces an eye switch relative to focus that keeps the hitter from getting back to the ball down as proficiently after seeing the ball up.
IMO you are playing right into the hitters game plan by going soft away with 2 strikes. Most 2 strike approaches are geared to looking away & trying to hit the ball back through the middle to the opposite field. This does not preclude you from throwing a breaking ball in the dirt or off of the plate that appears to be a strike because it moves through the strike zone.
I think that the age & skill level really factors into the above thoughts.
JW
The ball up forces an eye switch relative to focus that keeps the hitter from getting back to the ball down as proficiently after seeing the ball up.
IMO you are playing right into the hitters game plan by going soft away with 2 strikes. Most 2 strike approaches are geared to looking away & trying to hit the ball back through the middle to the opposite field. This does not preclude you from throwing a breaking ball in the dirt or off of the plate that appears to be a strike because it moves through the strike zone.
I think that the age & skill level really factors into the above thoughts.
JW
quote:would tend to use a changeup low and outside or a curve low and out..move the infield over accordingly
I also like this approach. My son lives off this type of pitch. Yes he uses high heat on occassion with the 0-2 count but he likes to pull the hitter off his power zone. there are no guarentees which ever approach. You also have to be carefull you don't hang a pitch. I have seen that many times. Very important to have 2 or 3 pitches working well and mix them up. I have seen him throw a great change and embarrass the hitter then throw it again and the hitter is ready for it. I have always told him never throw the same pitch twice in a row except his slider.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerry weinstein:
IMO we do not pitch up enough. We have created a generation of low ball hitters. Everyone is geared to hit the ball down.The ball up is a great pressure zone(chase)location as a complement for pitchers who throw breaking balls that start up & end in the zone. This is especially true if their spin axis is the same.Hitters will swing at fastballs or up thinking that they are breaking balls or splitters.
The ball up forces an eye switch relative to focus that keeps the hitter from getting back to the ball down as proficiently after seeing the ball up.
IMO you are playing right into the hitters game plan by going soft away with 2 strikes. Most 2 strike approaches are geared to looking away & trying to hit the ball back through the middle to the opposite field. This does not preclude you from throwing a breaking ball in the dirt or off of the plate that appears to be a strike because it moves through the strike zone.
I think that the age & skill level really factors into the above thoughts.
I couldnt agree with you more,,changing eye levels is a key advantage for a smart pitcher,,,and i also agree with you about age and skill levels..my kids at 13 tended to leave the fastball "not" HIGH enough more times than leaving a change up in the middle,,thats why we opted for the low outside junk more often
IMO we do not pitch up enough. We have created a generation of low ball hitters. Everyone is geared to hit the ball down.The ball up is a great pressure zone(chase)location as a complement for pitchers who throw breaking balls that start up & end in the zone. This is especially true if their spin axis is the same.Hitters will swing at fastballs or up thinking that they are breaking balls or splitters.
The ball up forces an eye switch relative to focus that keeps the hitter from getting back to the ball down as proficiently after seeing the ball up.
IMO you are playing right into the hitters game plan by going soft away with 2 strikes. Most 2 strike approaches are geared to looking away & trying to hit the ball back through the middle to the opposite field. This does not preclude you from throwing a breaking ball in the dirt or off of the plate that appears to be a strike because it moves through the strike zone.
I think that the age & skill level really factors into the above thoughts.
I couldnt agree with you more,,changing eye levels is a key advantage for a smart pitcher,,,and i also agree with you about age and skill levels..my kids at 13 tended to leave the fastball "not" HIGH enough more times than leaving a change up in the middle,,thats why we opted for the low outside junk more often
For young pitchers: learn to throw LOW and OUTSIDE before you learn to throw UP and / or IN. The pitch up or in will not have any effect on the hitter unless they know that you can spot pitch away and low (we are, of course, shortening the hitters bat and using the natural tendency to pull to try to get the hitter to hook the ball).
The offspeed or breaking ball in the dirt (0-2) works up till about mid level high school ball. Try throwing an 0-2 breaking ball or change up to a college level hitter or higher and you are gonna get hurt real bad (hasn't your coach instructed you to "protect the plate" with 0-2?). The higher up the skill level you go, the more hitters will HURT YOU if you make a mistake 0-2. You will see major league pitchers throw fastball, hard slider or sinker away about 90 percent of the time 0-2. They will usually come up in the zone 1-2 or 2-2 even full count but not usually 0-2. Pitcher or hitter, you have to prove your willingness to go deeper into the count and win the battle. The higher up you go in skill level, the more hitters will: try to take you deeper into the count and 2) hurt you if you get greedy on 0-2.
The offspeed or breaking ball in the dirt (0-2) works up till about mid level high school ball. Try throwing an 0-2 breaking ball or change up to a college level hitter or higher and you are gonna get hurt real bad (hasn't your coach instructed you to "protect the plate" with 0-2?). The higher up the skill level you go, the more hitters will HURT YOU if you make a mistake 0-2. You will see major league pitchers throw fastball, hard slider or sinker away about 90 percent of the time 0-2. They will usually come up in the zone 1-2 or 2-2 even full count but not usually 0-2. Pitcher or hitter, you have to prove your willingness to go deeper into the count and win the battle. The higher up you go in skill level, the more hitters will: try to take you deeper into the count and 2) hurt you if you get greedy on 0-2.
It is also game-situational. A pitcher up by three runs or more or who has been domininating should be aggressive. Otherwise he should be aggressive, yes, but be aware of the situation. If there is an open base perhaps he should try to make them chase. Or if there are runners at 1st and 2nd pitch low to get a ground ball. But like PG says, there's nothing as dominating as a 3-pitch strikeout. It also limits the pitch-count and allows the pitcher to go deeper into the game. Strike a guy out on 3 pitches early in the game and you have a chance of him either giving up (and getting the Golden Sombrero) or pressing to make something happen. Either way, he's toast.
On the situational thing: Absolutely
On the 3 pitch strikeout thing: Goes back to situation, I think, and the skill level of the hitter and level of play. Your college coach will have a heart attack if you give up too many 0-2 hits. I think pitchers have a natural urge to pitch a little more carefully once they get tagged 0-2 and everyone flips out.
I think that more amateur hitters do things like:
1) swing at the first pitch alot (get themselves out early in the count).
2) make themselves less susceptible to offspeed in some cases just by being bad hitters.
3) dont know how to "sit" on the fastball or hit ahead in the count.
4) dont know how to protect the plate and shorten up when down in the count
5) dont follow the same patterns as good hitters and can have success more randomly.
Be careful of the guys down the order for these reasons. Learn how to SPOT your fastball with a very high rate of accuracy (cuz thats your best defense against a bad hitter) and dont let a bad hitter get lucky at your expense.
On the 3 pitch strikeout thing: Goes back to situation, I think, and the skill level of the hitter and level of play. Your college coach will have a heart attack if you give up too many 0-2 hits. I think pitchers have a natural urge to pitch a little more carefully once they get tagged 0-2 and everyone flips out.
I think that more amateur hitters do things like:
1) swing at the first pitch alot (get themselves out early in the count).
2) make themselves less susceptible to offspeed in some cases just by being bad hitters.
3) dont know how to "sit" on the fastball or hit ahead in the count.
4) dont know how to protect the plate and shorten up when down in the count
5) dont follow the same patterns as good hitters and can have success more randomly.
Be careful of the guys down the order for these reasons. Learn how to SPOT your fastball with a very high rate of accuracy (cuz thats your best defense against a bad hitter) and dont let a bad hitter get lucky at your expense.
0-2 as a pitcher is an opportunity to pressure the hitter into a test of his ability to react and or decide. What what type or pitcher, type of hitter, the hitters possible weakness (technique/discipline), what was used to get to 0-2, what # AB is this against the hitter (what he has seen already), and what the runner/out/score situation is factor into the 0-2 pitch. 0-2 can be my best fastball against his barrel speed (inside), can be my best fastball against his eyes over the plate above his hands (climb/freezer), can be my tightest breaking-ball at and then out of the zone (chase), or can be my best located fastball away and knee (black). These pitches force the hitter to react, make a decision, and push the limits of his swing. It has been my experience that putting the good hitter away happens from an aggressive approach.
