When is enough, really enough??

Bottom line-- no deficit is insurmountable !!!


We play in tournaments where runs scored VS runs given up can be a tiebreaker---you do what you have to do for your team

TR - I get this - and I agree that a tournement is a different animal - anything goes. I was looking to differentiate between the other post [Tournament Crybabies} and a regular season game. IN the bigs and at other levels there is an "understood" point where you don't bunt, steal,etc. I was hoping for real opinons on where that point stands.
thx

"At what point do you stop bunting, stealing, etc?"

When the game's over. As mentioned in another section, good teams play til it's over rather than until they have a big lead. Baseball is baseball no matter the score.

"Scoreboad doesn't dictate the way you play."

If my team is up 10-0 after 3 innings, we'll say, I want to add every inning. Let's string a couple basehits together. Typically won't steal, but this is a good time, don't you think, to work on the hit and run or the bunting for a hit stuff. Now, not only is the team improving, it's also continuing to play our game and becoming consistent players.

I think as a player you have to have a little bit of greed in you. We've got a 5 run lead, let's make it 6.

You have to continue playing. And I'm gonna quote my coach twice more. (Just ask CoachB, he'll agree my coach has this mentality)

"Mental toughness: doing things right all the time" and again "Scoreboard doesn't dictate how you play" ~Coach Vogel

Windmill,

There are situations where ne "backs off" as it were, but HS baseball is a bit different. I have seen a local basketball team up 50 points in the 4th quarter, put all 5 starting seniors back on the court and full court press their hapless opponent. This was an obviously absurd and totally uncalled for act.

If your up 38-0 in a HS football game halfway through the 4th quarter, the game is over.

These points are sometimes harder to define in HS baseball. How many times have you seen stories posted here or looked at your local paper and read about an improbable comeback ?

i would agree, squeezing runs acroos the plate in in a game already in the mercy-rule situation is crossing the line.

There is a very important point you did not include in your description of these situations though. Are these players in the late innings of these games starters or backups? If they are back-ups i have no issues with these players getting hit & run or trying to score from second on a hit. Many times these are the only times these players get a chance to play & have ABs, why should they be limited in what they are doing?

TR's point about tie breaking rules is a very valid one too. Especially in a HS season where you very often can have 3 or 4 teams tied with identical records, sometimes these tie-breakers do get down to scenario involving runs scored or runs allowed.

The good coaches will move some players in as the game begins to get out of hand. It may start as just a couple of substitutions in the 4th or 5th inning, then end up with mostly back-up players in at the end of the game.

You had a 9-3 game in the 6th, If I have a chance to get 3 or 4 runs on you in that inning, I'm going to use all my resources to try and end the game in the 6th. That may indeed include a sophomore back-up 2nd baseman squeezing in a run.

If the game is 19-3 in the 4th inning and that same player is up, he is swinging away.

Now if I am up 16-0 and your hitting in the 3rd and you plate 7 runs, we still have a ball game and a long way to go. I am not backing off at all in that situation.

As I said, its harder to define the "game is over" point in baseball.

when does the number one kid in the class stop getting a's to let every one else catch up?
a rec. league game where the talent level is bad or the environment is learning- teaching is different.baseball has many lessons. as many runs as you score there are chances for put outs,defending the squeeze etc.coaches coach players play.the game isn't over till it's over.
i've been on both ends of games like that,you can find positives if you look hard enough.imo

We are not talking rec league-- we are talking HS baseball

There comes a time when the LL mentality has to stop--- In HS you play to win

By the way I have been mercied as many times as I have mercied the opponents in tournaments

There was a discussion on the radio last week after they made a new rule in CT to suspend any HS football coach who wins a game by more than 50 points. A HS coach from CT called into the program, and said that his program was one that was more apt to be beat by 50 than to do it themselves. His comment: "If I don't want to be beat by 50 points, it is MY job to stop them."

NHF's answer is the type I was looking for - in the 2 cases I cited, no substitutions had been made, and caoches had plenty of guys on the bench, and the teams were #1 and #3 in our league. In any situation, if I am the batter, whether I am #1 hitter on the team or the deepest scrub, I am up there to HIT [or get on base, as the case may be] - I am not up there to take it easy on you, bat opposite handed, or swing at pitches over my head to strike out purposely. I don't advocate purposely making outs, missing batted balls, or allowing opposition to score, just to make it look better for them - I think this makes them look worse/more embarrassed.

20Dad - you're way off, here - I asked a legitimate question - I never indicated allowing anyone to catch up. My post related to: at what point does it become 'rubbing your nose in it' at the High School level?

No tiebreakers for playoffs were involved - our first tie breaker is record against the first place team [which is dumb anyway] second tie breaker is head-to-head [we were in 8th out of 9 teams] - no tiebreaker scenario whatsoever.

As I indicated, I understand and support the playoff/tournement mentality.

How about the concept of using these "blowout" games as practices? What I mean is you might have a suicide squeeze play, or a special pick off to 2nd play that you've practiced but it really needs to be tried in a game situation to see if it works.

When you're pounding a team, this might be a good time to try these things so they'll be perfected when you get in a game where you HAVE to have that play ready.

Gents,

There are some valid points on both sides of this topic. I would like to inject that while one can certainly advocate never letting up on an opponent, there is a point in every blowout game in every team sport where a coach should be removing his first line players.

Can we all agree on that point?

I would argue that if a coach did not get his second/third line players into a one-sided game, then how exactly is he going to develop them to replace his current first teamers when they graduate?

PS 20Dad.....Tell Matt Good Luck Tomorrow against Manch. West.

The mercy rules are there to stop the bleeding.
Personnaly I find it an insult if a team stops playing all out. I would rather get mercied than see a team stop going full out.

It is wrong to continue to bunt, steal, hit-n-run, etc., in the circumstances that you refer to. Coaches need to go to their benches when they get big leads.

Tournament tie-breaking rules are generally set up to encourage these kids of things, and that is wrong, too. Using that as an excuse to run the score up is just that, an excuse for being inappropriate.

Some coaches just allow their egos to get in the way of doing the right thing; it is really too bad.

Maybe we can learn some things from ML managers.

I guarantee that a coach will get the message if his batters get hit hard in the rib cage. Can't score on a squeeze play if his batter is hit in the ribs.

There is no excuse for this kind of unsportsmanship behavior.

Grateful we must be talking different age levels and skill levels. Good ball players never give up no matter how bad things get. It is an insult for the other team not to put out a full effort. Yes go to the bench but don't stop playing hard. How do you expect your ball player to grow up if he can't take a beatting and keep smiling. my son has been on teams that were getting beat many times. I remember them at 17U being down 7-0 at the end of the 1st and coming back to within 1 run. Some of the greatest games were comeback games. What do they do when they go to college and get blasted ?

From HS freshmen year on, there is no reason to stop playing. A coach may decide to insert some bench players, the the game isn't over until the umpire says so. Many times, especially in tournaments, reducing the number of innings played saves pitching for future games.

I don't think much about the suicide squeeze being necessary if you are up 10 runs, otherwise, anything goes.

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:

I guarantee that a coach will get the message if his batters get hit hard in the rib cage. Can't score on a squeeze play if his batter is hit in the ribs.

There is no excuse for this kind of unsportsmanship behavior.

What kind of sportsmanship is it to start hitting batters that are only out there doing as they are told just because you are losing big?

Grateful,

Your "guarantee" would in most likely hood not produce what you desire. It would probably lead to an escalation of the situation.

If the opposing coach has "crossed the line" in your opinion, do you honestly think he will step back if you drill one or more of his players? The more likely response will be some of your players counting baseball stiches somewhere on their bodies.

This is not the way to go.

Bobblehead......I would never expect any player to stop playing hard......the initial post said: "stealing, hit and run, and suicide squeeze"........players can play hard without that.......I have no problem advancing on passed balls, missed cuts, etc.

Spinedoc and NHFD......

Most coaches will get the message when the message is sent. If it escalates the situation, so be it........

I have coached thousands of games......college, high school, youth.......some of the things that youth coaches believe are okay are really way out of line, and in the instance above he was talking about a high school coach........I would be willing to bet that the HS coach in question was in over his head after thinking he was a hot shot youth coach.......that's only a guess......

In the major leagues they don't do such things......even swinging at a 3-0 pitch when ML team is up ten runs is a no-no.

Most youth coaches need to learn how to coach kids the right way.

You guys can disagree with me all you want; try coaching a team in that situation sometime.

quote:

Most coaches will get the message when the message is sent. If it escalates the situation, so be it........

grateful - I am positive that I am not qualified to shine your shoes when it comes to coaching or knowledge of baseball in general.

I can see where in the pro ranks "messages" can be sent this way. For amateurs, this seems extreme at best. Why should the innocent player at bat have to suffer for transgressions of his coach? What if the player "receiving" the message is seriously injured? What effect might that have on the player who was ordered to "send" the message? It seems to me this is a Pandora's box that is best left closed.

Someday, the vanquished will be in position to return the favor and then the message can be sent - if necessary imho.

Grateful,

"
Most coaches will get the message when the message is sent. If it escalates the situation, so be it........"


Probably the most absurd statement I have seen out here.

I don't care how many games you have coached at what level. That is just plain crazy. Hell, and we wonder where guys like Ron Artest come from.


I have coached youth sports since I was in college, and I have NEVER EVER advocated hurting another player because of his coaches intentions. Certainly running up the score on your ego is not a justification for intentionally hurting a player! I have been on both sides of runaway games and never once considered making a player on the other team target practice because of his coaches actions. I have twice had to "explain" things to a coach after a game, but it was away from the players and between us.

My son got hit on the hand last year and broke a bone. He lost half of his freshmen year because of it. The was no malice intended in the situation.

If however, he got hurt on an intentional situation such as you described, you & I would be having a very serious disscussion and I am sure you would not be coaching your HS team any longer.

You may have an issue with the opposing coach, then you be a MAN and deal with the coach. If you have to, talk with AD of the school is question as well. Only a coward would put a HS baseball players well being in jeporady to "send a message" to the opposing coach.

I have witnessed this mentality in HS basketball where a kid was undercut on his way to the basket and landed on his neck and head. He was lucky to have only suffered a concussion. The coach put in a player to purposely go after the other teams star because he was "hot-dogging". The kid went to the hospital and the coach lost his job!

Your going to look like quite the a_hole if your pitcher seriously injures another player in this situation.

This is how I play it. Once we have gotten up by 8 or 9 runs and if the other team is totally overmatched by our pitching I can see that they are not going to make a run at us. No bunting no stealing no hit and run. We do move on passed balls and take two on doubles etc. I see no need to rub it in anyones face once I can see that the team is no threat to us. We just play station to station baseball and by all means no bunting and stealing. There are times when we are up by 8 or 9 and I can see that this team is still a threat. They are hitting the ball and they are a threat to come back. We continue to try to push the lead as hard as possible. But a coach can see if the other team is totally overmatched and no threat to come back. When this is the case I believe that there is no need to embarrass or humiliate the other team. In tournement play or playoff play there is no mercy. You finish them as soon as possible and hold nothing back. You are trying to save innings for pitchers and hold runs scored to a minimum. Total different situation than a regular season HS game. JMHO

Ron Artest doesn't belong in this conversation......undercutting a guy shooting a layup has nothing to do with it, either.......my ego has nothing to do with it, either.........

The overwhelming majority of coaches who do it for a living would not embarrass another team by running the score up, and neither do ML managers......again, I repeat, maybe the youth coaches of the world (who, by the way, do something else to earn a living) should learn from the college and pro guys.

If your kids are playing in college, their teams are not running up the score........if they are playing in college, they may very well get hit by a pitch (intentionally as well as accidentally).

I didn't say anything about hurting an opposing player. I would never want nor encourage that to happen. Hit a kid in the ribs, the thigh.....and the coach will get the message and all will be forgotten.

NHguy, you want to question my manhood and integrity, etc.......be my guest. I am not questioning anybody else's, nor yours. You know nothing about me, so therefore your opinion means nothing to me.

It is times like this that remind me that so many times on this site we are dealing with people who haven't been there, other than being parents. I am a parent, too.......my 105 pound daughter has been hit by about fifteen pitches already this season without an injury. No big deal to me. I think most parents are fabulous people. But parents trying to coach is like me doing taxes, or trying a court case.......I wouldn't do a very good job.

Nice post Coach May!

I think that a good HS coach can see and feel an opposing HS team that is beat. Not to say that comebacks don't happen, and you don't make across the board changes, but selective substitutions not only builds confidence but also gives a coach an idea what a player with little experience can do when thrown in the fire. A good friend of mine who coaches HS was a little dejected after a recent blow-out. They won the game handedly, however, none of his subs "stepped-up" when they had the opportunity and that concerned him.

Grateful,

Everything I stated is completely relevant to this discussion. Your advocating hurting another teams player to send a message to his coach. Peroid!

Your first post says everything anyone needs to know about you.

"I guarantee that a coach will get the message if his batters get hit hard in the rib cage. Can't score on a squeeze play if his batter is hit in the ribs.

There is no excuse for this kind of unsportsmanship behavior.
"

In one sentance youe directly advocating intentionaly throwing at a player!

In the next, You claim there is no excuse for this kind of unsportsmanship behavior, in refernce to the idea of a coach showing up or running it up on another team. Your reaction to the situation is called sportmanship?

I dont need to know anything else past that!

I'm so glad your pitchers are so good that they will only hit a kid in the ribs. I'm pretty sure your pitchers do not have the skill set that the MLB pitcher who hit Bonds last week does. He took how many pitches to do it?

I will call into question anyone's manhood who wants to intentionaly throw AT a player on another HS team because he feels the coach of that team is out of line with the way he is conducting the game. Your not talking about college or pro players here, most of these players will never play competive baseball after HS.

How are you going to feel if your pitcher's throw gets away and hits that kid in the head? It happens at all levels all the time without al this intent.

Coach May,

Absolutely Agree !

quote:

Your first post says everything anyone needs to know about you.

NHDad - Welcome to HSBBW!

One of the fantastic things about this site is that we can all discuss and share our various viewpoints on things.

I don't enjoy or appreciate intentional hitting of anyone. I don't think I could ever do it if I was a coach at any level. Of course, I wouldn't have kids steal bases either and a few other things that would obviously prevent me from being a successful coach.

Grateful is a very respected poster here - by me and many others. As a matter of fact, I would have loved for my JUCO son to play ball for him as he has been a very successful college coach most of his life. Not that I'm defending Grateful - he doesn't need me to do that.

The site is much more enjoyable when we can all try to understand the perspectives and opinions of others without passing judgement on who they are from one post. Regardless of what any of us feel about someone else we're all more than some words we post on a website.

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
Ron Artest doesn't belong in this conversation......undercutting a guy shooting a layup has nothing to do with it, either.......my ego has nothing to do with it, either.........

The overwhelming majority of coaches who do it for a living would not embarrass another team by running the score up, and neither do ML managers......again, I repeat, maybe the youth coaches of the world (who, by the way, do something else to earn a living) should learn from the college and pro guys.

If your kids are playing in college, their teams are not running up the score........if they are playing in college, they may very well get hit by a pitch (intentionally as well as accidentally).

I didn't say anything about hurting an opposing player. I would never want nor encourage that to happen. Hit a kid in the ribs, the thigh.....and the coach will get the message and all will be forgotten.

NHguy, you want to question my manhood and integrity, etc.......be my guest. I am not questioning anybody else's, nor yours. You know nothing about me, so therefore your opinion means nothing to me.

It is times like this that remind me that so many times on this site we are dealing with people who haven't been there, other than being parents. I am a parent, too.......my 105 pound daughter has been hit by about fifteen pitches already this season without an injury. No big deal to me. I think most parents are fabulous people. But parents trying to coach is like me doing taxes, or trying a court case.......I wouldn't do a very good job.

i'm sorry about the above post my first attempt at quoting.
i agree with the earn a living elsewhere quote.

Okay, NH......so....we know that I am not going to run the score up on you (see how nice I can be?), and that you are not going to throw at my hitters.......and now I bet you won't try to run the score up on me. See how it works?

quote:

Okay, NH......so....we know that I am not going to run the score up on you (see how nice I can be?), and that you are not going to throw at my hitters.......and now I bet you won't try to run the score up on me. See how it works?

Bingo, You & I hash it out between ourselves. Id we get a bit heated thats ok, there is no need to purposely inflict pain of players from either team because we have a difference of opinion about the game.

Yes, NH, I think we came to an understanding.

Since you know I might have my pitcher throw at your batters......the same ones you have already taught how to get hit by throwing balls at them at practice......you will not run the score up on my team if you would ever be in that position.

Grateful,

Try to stay on topic, if you wish to discuss the training issue of avoiding pitches, open up a new thread.

If you wish to continue to debate, I'm here.

Most states have a mercy rule that is 10 runs after 5 innings.
Here's 2 examples of what happened over my years.
Up 10 runs in the fourth and unloading the bench of an away game. Opponent starts to hit younger pitcher, who then can't find the plate. Other experienced pitchers are either used or sitting. Next young pitcher comes in and loads the bases. Next hitter goes 350'+ and its suddenly 10-6. 2 more walks and next young pitcher comes in and gives up a 3 run shot on the 1st pitch he throws. We call a quick meeting on the mound and remind them that we scored 10 and its still our game. 2 quick errors make it 1st and 3rd. Then a long fly to center caught but cf falls down and hurts his ankle, hurries up and tries to throw but goes over cutoff. Runner on 1st comes all the way around and we're down 11-10. We went home with our heads where the sun doesn't shine.
Following year, pretty much same team, we are down in an important district game 10-0 in the top of the 5th, again away game. We just start pounding the ball, knock out 3 pitchers, 3 hr's and 12 runs later we are celebrating a big victory.
When up by 10 before the 5th, we will play station to station, always save a quality pitcher in case. We'll move on pb's, take what they're willing to give, but nothing extra.
Beware, in this game a lead is never safe.

Coachric I have always felt that way. How would you feel if the other team pulled all their best players in the 10-0 gam? probably somewhat cheated of the true victory. Baseball is a game of momentum and it can change soooo quickly. Change your pitcher sub in some good hitters and you can have a new ball game.

NH.....I don't have to stay on topic.....you have already stated in another thread that kids should intentionally be thrown at in practice, which is an idea that is much more relevant than your reference to Ron Artest is......the fact that you like to argue is your issue, not mine.

I guess you are telling us that it is okay to throw baseballs at kids in practice, but not in games.

I don't normally look at the profiles of other posters nor do I check out previous posts (sorry for veering off subject), but since I had some time this morning and you have wondered about my manhood, etc., I have found that you just seem to like to argue and you have a history of name calling already, so now I understand just who I am working with here.

So again, I know that you will not try to run the score up on any coach who might have your hitters thrown at, because you believe that it is only appropriate to intentionally hit players with baseballs in practice situations.

If you are still wondering about my manhood, please stop, I will not go out on a date with you.

In an effort to stay on topic, I do agree with so many of you posters who have talked about great comebacks that teams can make even when on the verge of getting mercied.

I would never tell players to stop playing hard. Players should continue to run hard, make quality pitches, have quality at bats, no matter what the score.

Teams/coaches must be prepared for anything. In baseball there is no clock; the game is never over until the last out is recorded. In spite of that, there are still some rules of etiquette in the game of baseball.

NHF, while I too enjoy some spirited banter, it would be wise to pay close attention to what Grateful says .. you may disagree, or think your methods are better, or wish things were different. but, his posts give a great view of how the "high level" game has been played/is played/and will continue to be played in the future

as your son continues to progress, Grateful will seem smarter & smarter

imho

If Im up big and my pitcher is dominating the other team I look to get other kids innings in the field and kids ab's. If he is throwing it by the 3 4 5 hitters and they are unable to mount any kind of a threat , how in the world is putting in your subs and giving other kids ab's going to hurt you? It only helps your team. Guys need to play and get ab's. These games are a perfect time to get them the game experience. I have never lost a game when I have subbed and given other kids ab's because we were up big. I can tell when a team is overmatched and no threat to us. If there is any doubt in my mind we just keep pounding untill there is not a doubt. We have the 10 run rule and I dont like it. These are the innings that other kids need. The problem is some coaches do not use their bench and just use it as stat sheet stuffing time. Kids need to play in game situations when its possible. If putting in some subs and giving some other kids abs looses a 10 run lead for me then why are they on the roster in the first place?

I don't think we are saying not to go to the bench. My son's teams have always done that. I am talking slowing down the play ,not putting out an effort which to me is insulting and the hight of arrogance. Go to the bench but play the game out. We are talking about playing a game not life and death.
The statement Grateful made about hitting batters in the ribs etc is in poor sportsmanship regardless of who he is or who he has coached. To me it wasn't really worth commenting on. Again everyone in baseball has their opinions.

.

quote:

I'd like the opinions of the real baseball folks here, not just the guys/gals looking to boost their karma points

I don't want to tell you I told you so, but.....

...when you take good Karma out of a thread chaos is likley to insue....

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