When Should The Coach Be Arrested?

Never.

This is an 18 year old kid. He can vote, join the armed services and marry, I think he can tell a high school coach he has pitched enough.

Yeah....right......when was the last time you saw a aggressive pitcher take himself out of the game. Coach should know better...and if doesn't....he should not be coach.

Let me take a wild guess and say this was your son who was the pitcher. IF that is true then I can understand why you are feeling that way but regardless you need to relax. Especially after what you put in the general items forum.

You actually compared this coach to a pedophile in terms of damaging his body. Trust me as someone who has a masters degree in counseling that the physical damage is nothing compared to the mental damage for a victim of a pedophile. A pitcher who hurts his arm is NOWHERE near in the same boat as a victim of pedophilia.

If the coach did make this kid throw that many pitches then he is an idiot but right now all we have is your opinion. How do you know the exact count was 133? Reason I ask is that I had a parent one time accuse me of having his son throw 120 some pitches when he actually was at 93 for the game.

Just relax and calm down on some of the things you are saying about this coach.

quote:

Reason I ask is that I had a parent one time accuse me of having his son throw 120 some pitches when he actually was at 93 for the game.

I once had a parent say his kid was hitting 400 something. I checked the book try 240 something.

go figure

HARV

The last time I saw an aggressive pitcher take himself out of a game was this last fall---my son did it when he was in HS

quote:

I witnessed today, during the first League Game of our season, in 68 degree weather,

68 degrees? I wish I could have opened up my seasons in 68 degrees? today the league opens here it is in the low 40's and windy.

Now coaches must worry about mistreatment and you talk of criminal? Are we over reacting here?

Will

This type of talk is typical of the times!!!

I taught my players to roll on the inside pitch instead of duck and running...should I hire a lawyer? I don't think it's covered in my malpractice coaches insurance.

Maybe a caseworker from family services and a cop needs to attend games with a clicker hanging off their necks.

Harv, I've never said something like this to anyone in all the years I've been around HSBBW. You're an idi*t. If you think that this is criminal, you have no business being anywhere near a sports field. I'm darned glad you're not a parent of any kid I know, as your kid would be gone from my program in a New York minute. And I say this as a coach who doesn't abuse his pitchers, as most of them have limits under 100 pitches, and that's for horses that are headed to college.

Get a life.

Harv,
You have every right to be PO'ed. I would be. The next thing is to educate your son. Set a pitch count and if the coach won't keep track your son needs too. 133 is about 43 more than I will ever be happy about when my son is in HS. Don't let your obvious anger get in the way of future postings on the site. We have all posted in anger at one time or another. Just check out the hitters forum or the Illinois forum.

Amazing !!!!!

It used to be "sue "; now it is "arrest"

Perhaps coaches should get out of coaching before they have their reputations and lives ruined.

why have our pitchers have arm problems..pitch counts and "throwing programs"

I would have took the **** rock like i did on many occasions. would have pitched to win.

Kid needs to be ready to pitch if he is a hooper.. basketball...baseball-bad combo anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Amazing !!!!!

It used to be "sue "; now it is "arrest"

Perhaps coaches should get out of coaching before they have their reputations and lives ruined.

What happened to the good old days of being physically assaulted by parents????? Or having your name trashed in the community by upset parents????

Man the times sure are a changing.

I just had a flashback to when I was in high school. The coach didn't think my stride was long enough. After watching me not get it out where he thought it should be, he laid two bats on the front of the mound. He told me if I didn't stride far enough (over the bats) I'd hurt myself. Imagine the parental reaction if a coach did that today!

RJM


Did it work?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM


Did it work?

Of course it did. Talk about focusing! The coach didn't want me to hurt myself. He wanted me to concentrate on correcting a flaw. I remember coaches would also placed bats where hitters would bail their front foot. I've seen hitters step on the bats too. They only made that mistake once.

By today's standards every one of my high school coaches and my college baseball coach were mentally and sometimes physically abusive. They helped mold my mental makeup to make me the successful businessman I am today.

People freak out when I say I'd have no problem having my son play for a Bob Knight. There are a lot of Bob Knights in the sports world. He's just open and honest about who he is (and sometimes a jerk). These coaches mold boys into men.

We did the bat thing for hitters---it worked

As for Bob Knight my kids can play for him anytime---what people do not understand that he exhibits the old military values from his days at the POINT--his kids became men and they also graduated

But has he has stated his type of coach cannot make in todays world of pampered athletes

Hi.....I am the original poster....Harv. No, the kid I'm talking about is not my son....just a well meaning hardworking kid who's a senior and is playing football for CU next year. Great shape....just not yet pitching shape.

To continue this story, the kid couldn't raise his arm above his head until Tuesday (Sat outing). He has not thrown in over a week without pain and could not play for this weeknd's games a week after his outing.

The 68 degrees was the high for the month. Most of the time its snowy and below freezing.

Today....the coach threw my freshman son 91 pitches. No worries as he's a ski racer (very strong legs), finished fall ball in November and has been throwng 3 days a week before the season started. His arm is fine however, I STILL PROFESS THAT 133 PITCHES IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE IN HS BALL AND NOBODY SHOULD ARGUE DIFFERENT!

Oh By the way....the exact count was 133 pitches....I'm the score keeper as well as the "clicker".

I've seen quite a few posts that assumed I was the kid's dad....some very derogatory. I've sen few who would admit that they would throw a kid that many pitches.....especially early in the season knowng he's been focused on basketball....not baseball pitching.

I may be offline in the "pedophile" thing....but I do hold, and will continue to hold coaches responsible for the health and well being of the players. They have no right to "damage" a kid for a in/loss record....at any level.

I read today....in Baseball Times.....many "designated professional starters" got their first "100 pitch outing". Go figure.....these guys KNOW what pitching and enthusiasm can do to an arm.

For the poster in NY.....to quote Kevin Costner....somewhat...."I can't think of a better reason to NOT be from NY."

Harv:

You make some good points. I know when the local Minor League club starts the season, they have their starters on severe pitch counts...any where from 50 to 75, for their first few outings.

I'm not a coach. I umpire HS, College and work as a MiLB fill-in from time to time. I've never seen college skippers or pro managers abuse a pitcher early in the season, but I've seen a number of HS coaches have a kid throw well over 125 pitches in his first appearance.

Last week in a game in which I had the plate, I heard a loud pop come from the mound as the pitcher delivered. When I went out to the mound the pitcher was holding his arm, wincing in pain and complaining about his elbow. He said he couldn't move his arm without severe pain, and had the tears to prove it.

His coach, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, asked me to let him throw "three or four from the rubber" to see how hurt he was. The kid looked horrified at the request, which I turned down. I told the coach I was not going to be held responsible for further injury.

As it turns out, the kid is out for the season.

When did this pitch count controversy begin? I have been around a long time. During my playing days never heard a thing. You either pitched a complete game or if you were getting hit around you were taken out. During my coaching years counting pitches was something you had a feel about. I saw a kid was struggling and his pitches lost velocity and he as they say lost it so I went and got him. common sense. I knew my kids what they could do and not do. as far as pitch counts go if you are throwing a lot of pitches you are for the most part not getting the job done. You are not getting the job done you are out of there.

Harv, I don't think that you realize that everyone on here agrees that any coach who'd have his pitcher throw 133 pitches, especially under the circumstance you describe, is doing something unwise and irresponsible.

You need to realize that the problem everyone has with your thesis is the "arrest" portion of it. It may be stupid, but until we outlaw stupidity, the coach didn't break any laws. Of course, if we outlawed stupidity, we'd need to build a whole lot more jails!

Parents who espouse filing lawsuits or calling the cops really do need to have their kids play on the chess team, not a sports team.

Merv-

You're right, 133 pitches is way too much for a HS athlete to throw on his first outing. I don't think that you'll get a lot of people to argue that point. However, I think your argument loses a lot of credibility when you start throwing the word 'criminal' out there. Sure, the coach is idiotic for leaving a kind on the bump that long. He's putting winning above the kids well being, which isn't right. I think we can all agree at this point that pitch counts should be enforced, just not by the authorities. I use the ASM recommended pitch count chart and follow that pretty closly, perhaps you could leave an anonymous note in the dug out instead of an anonymous tip to the police. I'm kidding but I would suggest that next time you throw a venting post out here try not to be so dramatic in your assertions. You'll get a better response and people won't discount your valid points because of asinine allegations. Just my 2 1/2 cents.

If you feel this strongly over this that you want to say he's a criminal then why do you let your son play for him? How about he quits the team or he transfers to another school.

You have choices.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
When did this pitch count controversy begin? I have been around a long time. During my playing days never heard a thing.

Times change. We've learned more about the human body, how to train it, how to avoid injury.

Training practices have changed. Weight rooms are more crowded, attention to flexibility and agility training have increased, and it's no longer legal to get an out by plunking the runner with the ball.

It's 2009.

quote:

Training practices have changed. Weight rooms are more crowded, attention to flexibility and agility training have increased, and it's no longer legal to get an out by plunking the runner with the ball.

Plunking the runner good one. that was before my time but not by much that being said you would think with all mentioned above there would be less injury since the training practices have increased? just a thought

Harv- Of course the coach should not throw a kid that much, I would even argue that your son throwing 91 pitches is a little excessive. My problem was also with the arrest portion of your premise. Parents and kids should take responsibility for what happens to them. I have had to step in and tell a coach my kids were done. It wasn't pleasant and most of the time the kids and the coach were unhappy. They all got over it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
that being said you would think with all mention ed above there would be less injury since the training practices have increased? just a thought

At the amateur level reported injuries due to exertions as a percentage of players are down, accoring to emergency room and insurance company figures. Injuries due to being hit by objects and other players are up.

Some are using the latter figures to justify calls for helmets on everybody and face masks on infielders. Yuck.

quote:

Some are using the latter figures to justify calls for helmets on everybody and face masks on infielders. Yuck.

How the heck did we ever survive our childhood? remember playing from dwn to dark with nobody telling us what to do or how to do it. Played with no helmets and fields with more holes and broken glass than a war zone.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Training practices have changed. Weight rooms are more crowded, attention to flexibility and agility training have increased, and it's no longer legal to get an out by plunking the runner with the ball.

Plunking the runner good one. that was before my time but not by much that being said you would think with all mentioned above there would be less injury since the training practices have increased? just a thought

The problem today is kid's throw too little and pitch too much. When I was in high school I completed every start and relieved an inning or two in one other game that week. Here's why I could do that and kid's can't now.

As a kid I played a lot of pickup ball and threw and threw and threw. I threw and threw and threw with friends in the yard. But, I didn't get to pitch in a game until I was twelve. LL was 9-12. Mostly only 12's pitched. So with the LL season and all-stars I had less than 100 innings on my arm heading into 7th grade. Today a preteen travel pitching stud may pitched 100 innings a season from 9U to 12U for a total of 400 innings.

In the junior high years thirteen year olds aren't strong enough to get out fifteen year old 9th graders. It was a year off from pitching. Pitching in 8th and 9th grade plus BR and BR all-stars I threw another 240 innings. A 13U to 15U travel pitching stud is throwing another 400 innings over the same three years between travel, middle school and freshman year of high school.

We're now we're only to high school. The 12U travel pitching stud has more innings (400) on his arm than I (340) had going into junior year of high school. By 15U the kid is at 800 innings.

So by high school who has a lot left and who's half toasted their arm? Travel ball is killing pitcher's arms with all the pitching they do in their preteen and early teen years while the growth plates are very active.

This brings me to an important statement that one of our coaches tells us at practice all the time, if you hurt, tell someone because as long as you go out there the coach is and should be expecting you to play as hard and as well as you possibly can.

The player has to hold some responsibility too.

quote:

68 degrees? I wish I could have opened up my seasons in 68 degrees? today the league opens here it is in the low 40's and windy.

I'd take 40s and wind, we played half our season through snow storms! Haha

quote:

Originally posted by CitrusZilla:

...The player has to hold some responsibility too.

...and the parents.

Turning your kid over to a guy with a teaching degree while he's playing High School sports is just a risk that you've just got to realize you're taking. Coach is not a licensed physician, or he would probably be, well,...a doctor. He's basically a teacher who has a specialty outside of the classroom. And while general awareness about pitching health and training has improved over the years, coach is not paid to be held to a standard that makes him criminal if your kid gets hurt doing something within the UIL rules.

Just because we watch people go on Oprah everyday wailing about how they need to be "made whole" from the unjustices done to them, we don't REALLY have to adopt that mentality in baseball, do we? Harv, I just hope you didn't sit at the dinner table with your ball-player airing out this witch-hunt mentality about his coach right in front of him.