When to shut down a healthy high school junior

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Originally posted by twotex:
From what I've read the junior year of high school is an important one from a recruiting perspective. Fall ball/camps/showcases seem to be regarded as fairly important in your junior year. Depending on the camps/showcases/leagues, this can keep a kid playing into November, maybe December.

So when does he start preparing for Spring? December, right?

What I'm wondering is whether a healthy junior shuts down, and if so, when and for how long? I'm sure others would like to know if the answer is the same for position players (my son is a catcher) and pitchers?

Last year my son took off most of the month of November (seriously, that's all), but he got back to baseball in December. We are in Connecticut, so baseball in the winter is largely skill/cage work. His non-baseball workout continues and intensifies in the winter. He likes to catch bullpens in the winter so that his legs stay in shape. He has a throwing arm which seems to feel better when he throws on a consistent schedule. In other words, the less he throws, the more likely he is to have a sore arm.

I would really like to hear from those who've been there/done that on what they recommend. Thanks in advance.

My player put in time (tournies and fall ball) the fall of his junior year and a camp and showcase in winter. His junior HS season was pretty light as a pitcher only, with a full senior summer to follow.

Our objective was to be going into senior summer not being unknown and an offer by senior fall. It did work out that way for him.

I know that everyone's goal is different but keep in mind how important senior summer is for most, be careful not to over do it and avoid injury.

Mine was a pitcher, not sure if that works for catchers.

My son is a catcher, he pretty much works out all year, cuts back on throwing whenever the arm isn't feeling right and doesn't catch or squat if the knees aren't feeling it. He does cut back a bit during the holidays. but is generally hitting 5-6 times a week and throwing ever other day he isn't lifting.

Mine is a psition player and trains virtually year round in some form or another. Rarely is he without a bat in his hand, although he will rest his arm.

I'm really interested in what experts say about this. My son is a catcher that is being asked to go to colleges in November and December, but how do you take time off? Does it matter for his arm if it does not hurt?

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He has a throwing arm which seems to feel better when he throws on a consistent schedule. In other words, the less he throws, the more likely he is to have a sore arm.

I concur 100% with your statement. My son, now a College position player, experiences support that approach.

Sometimes, his body tells him to take a little break which he will do with this formula; time away from training, let's say three weeks, requires a minimum of double the time off, or six weeks, to get back reasonably close to competition ready.

For the most part, other than a very short breather here and there, he trains to throw, hit and stretch year around.

My son volunteered last night that he prefers to catch year round. He does not like to have to get back in shape, get his reflexes honed, etc. Of course intensity varies.

Prime, you make a good point. These guys have to learn to read their own bodies, and be their own experts. Unfortunately it is trial and error to a certain extent.

I'll ask his catching instructor (former pro player) his opinion.

According to the MEDICAL experts (Dr. James Andrews and ASMI) players should shut down all THROWING for 3 consecutive months a year. Andrews is also down on the off season showcases. And the fact that your son's arm is not hurting now would not change their opinions.

However, as a practical matter, the parent and player have to make something of a risk vs. reward assessment based on the player's age, the recruiting timeline, etc. Frankly, you may have little choice but to extend his season around the time of his sophomore or junior seasons, just to make some of the showcases. I just wouldn't push any more than you have to.

When he gets to college he's more than likely going to be throwing year round anyway. Just try to get him as much rest as you can while he is still young and developing physically.

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Originally posted by Aleebaba:
I'm really interested in what experts say about this. My son is a catcher that is being asked to go to colleges in November and December, but how do you take time off? Does it matter for his arm if it does not hurt?

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:
... My son is a catcher that is being asked to go to colleges in November and December, but how do you take time off?

I'm not an expert, but I do think his body/arm will tell him what he needs to know. I know your son's schedule, and it's very consistent with what GUN did from 2008-2011. We were concerned too, there are just so many throws in that arm, right?

Each player is different, that's why there is no GOLD standard (guarantee) for this question. No doubt, every player needs to take some time to rest. But, as a conditioned athlete, with an arm conditioned to throw, throwing maintenance is far more important than taking a regimented break, just to say we got 90 days rest, make sense? Maybe the rest is cumulative, over the entire 365 days of the year, as opposed to one lump sum. Whatever works for the player. Also, position players are different from pitchers, with different throwing schedules and purpose.

GUN throws regulary, with a purpose. But, if his arm feels tired, he rests his arm. He's never taken a break from hitting, but that's very typical of all our boys.

No doubt, if JRs arm hurts, is weak/tired, rest. And, as he gets older, he'll know how long to rest to get his strength/velo back. As a 16 year old, this is the time he needs to really pay attention to what his body/arm are telling him (+) communicate that to you. As far as the fall college circuit as a sophomore, he's got allot of time.

Good stuff! GED10DaD

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According to the MEDICAL experts (Dr. James Andrews and ASMI) players should shut down all THROWING for 3 consecutive months a year. Andrews is also down on the off season showcases. And the fact that your son's arm is not hurting now would not change their opinions.

Would agree completely with these thoughts.

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just to say we got 90 days rest, make sense? Maybe the rest is cumulative, over the entire 365 days of the year, as opposed to one lump sum.

See above. I think periodic breaks are important, but I still believe that sustained time off is also important.

Tex I have always broke down the year like this. HS season Feb to early June. Then onto the summer season with workouts during off game days. Then onto the fall season. Less games with workouts on days off. Then the OFF SEASON. This is the time from around early NOV to early JAN. Around 8 weeks of no throwing. The time when you shut down throwing and train very hard on the things you need to train on when there are no games to be played. You work the core very hard, speed agility flexibility and baseball specific weight training. Hitters keep hitting.

My son hated to take off more than a week from throwing because he said he always hated the way his arm felt when he took time off from throwing. So we did bands, T's Y's , Med ball work, etc etc. And if he wanted to throw I let him throw but limited the amount of throwing.

IMO hitters that want to keep playing and aspire to play at the level above where they are at never stop hitting. Its a year round process to the day someone tells you your not good enough to play any longer. But thats just me.

Our routine was similar. The main difference being son normally took the fall (Sept - Nov) off from throwing (not hitting fielding, or conditioning), except for one year we decided to play in the fall to hopefully get a little extra "exposure." We usually started back a little earlier than you guys, in part because the season in SC starts a couple of weeks earlier than NC. Over the years Thanksgiving became our start date. Go to grandma's, pig out, then come home and get to work. HS practice season here starts Feb. 1, scrimmages around 10 days later. That gave us 2 months to long toss, work on mechanics, and be ready to pitch on Feb. 1.

In retrospect, I guess we could have compressed the preparation from 2 months to 6 weeks, but Thanksgiving sort of became our opening day. It was sort of nice being the only ones on the field on those blustery winter days. Also enjoyed the people riding by blowing their horns and yelling "Dude, you're crazy!" or "It ain't baseball season." We just laughed and kept working. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Tex I have always broke down the year like this. HS season Feb to early June. Then onto the summer season with workouts during off game days. Then onto the fall season. Less games with workouts on days off. Then the OFF SEASON. This is the time from around early NOV to early JAN. Around 8 weeks of no throwing. The time when you shut down throwing and train very hard on the things you need to train on when there are no games to be played. You work the core very hard, speed agility flexibility and baseball specific weight training. Hitters keep hitting.

My son hated to take off more than a week from throwing because he said he always hated the way his arm felt when he took time off from throwing. So we did bands, T's Y's , Med ball work, etc etc. And if he wanted to throw I let him throw but limited the amount of throwing.

IMO hitters that want to keep playing and aspire to play at the level above where they are at never stop hitting. Its a year round process to the day someone tells you your not good enough to play any longer. But thats just me.

This is good stuff. My problem -- which is a good one to have -- is that he has been asked directly by two D1 assistant coaches to come to their campuses to see school and work out in front of head coach, one in November, and one in December. Normally Novenmber and December would be shut-down time. If we go he would only be shut down about a month. He has not had a strenuous Fall so far, nor is he tired or have any arm soreness, so probably no big deal; but, it is a hard decision. Twotex, what did your instructor say? Ours just said read your body, (which provides no advice on shut-down regimen).

Aleebaba,

First working out one on one is not "legal" according to the NCAA. A camp, yes, one on one, no.

One season where he extends his throwing or baseball playing is not going to make any difference in the long run. The ASMI recommendations are to preserve the long term health of players. Get a little extra rest prior to the start of HS season and just let the coach know he may not be available early season.

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Get a little extra rest prior to the start of HS season and just let the coach know he may not be available early season.

See and I disagree with this idea right here. And I blame college coaches to some degree. When a kid is in high school, it should be about his high school team. I think it's unfair to the high school team if you decide to showcase yourself when you should be resting and then resting during the season.

It is OK to disagree, but this is life. The college recruting season is based around their time off and the fall events. Just the way it is.

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See and I disagree with this idea right here. And I blame college coaches to some degree. When a kid is in high school, it should be about his high school team. I think it's unfair to the high school team if you decide to showcase yourself when you should be resting and then resting during the season.

As a general statment I'd disagree. A HS position player that isn't working out year round is falling behind thereby short changing his HS team. Whether its a showcase or individual workout it doesn't matter. In fact if he goes to a showcase during his "resting" period he'll likely learn somehting new he wouldn't have learned by staying home and resting. You have to play to improve.

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You have to play to improve.

more doesn't always equal better

IMO the area of the country that you live in will dictate when your player rests and for how long. Those that live in the northern states generally don't have the same opportunities as those in other areas due to weather conditions. Obviously we all realize this.

I've lived in Southern California my entire life. I don't have the slightest idea what playing baseball is like in below freezing temperatures? I'd imagine it's pretty difficult, in fact, it's impossible if snow is part of the equation. We don't have those problems on the west coast, so it's important that time is allotted for rest each year and sometimes forced upon our kids. The question is "How much time is needed for sufficient rest?" Until a couple years ago, it was easy. High Schools in the Southern Section were under Rule 313, otherwise known as the Association Rule. The rule,in effect, eliminated any type of contact between an individual sports coach and a student-athlete in that sport during the school year and outside of the season of sport except for one hour (6th period). So a typical high school program in our area would play out the spring season from February-June. The HS team would then roll into a short summer season, usually six weeks (15-20 games), and be done until the following spring. Players would generally play for their summer and fall teams from mid-June until mid-November. The majority of players rested for eight weeks through the Christmas Holidays, and would be ready to go when school resumed after the new year.

My son was coming off an arm injury after his Sophomore year, so we were very careful during the fall of his Junior year to make sure he went into the HS season 100% healthy. In doing so, he missed some opportunities that slowed the recruiting process for him. If he had been healthy, I would have had him showcasing more on the mound. Instead, I limited him to the outfield, and kept him off the mound. After being used primarily as a Closer his Junior year of HS, he had some catching up to do from the recruiting aspect. He went from HS spring baseball after his Junior year, right to Summer-Ball (WWBA in Georgia, Arizona Tournaments, local league games with Summer and HS team). He played for his travel team in the Fall, in addition to his Scout-Ball team. And when the winter came around, his HS team had a 16 game schedule that included a couple D1 College showcase tournaments. My son rested about three weeks prior to the beginning of his senior high school season. In retrospect, it all worked out, he's at a good college (on the baseball and academic scale) that's close to home, and more importantly, he's a happy young man.

I'm not sure what the proper rest amount should be for healthy HS Juniors? Bulldog19 says that ASMI and Dr. Andrews suggests three months of NO THROWING. That would be nearly impossible in our area due to how the recruiting works, and these kids would risk not getting seen by the decision makers. It's a tough call...shut my healthy kid down, while others are out showcasing and being seen...or take a chance by limiting rest and risking injury? I'm happy that I don't have to worry about it anymore, well, atleast the showcasing and rest periods. Good luck to those on the HSBBW going through this, I know how you're feeling.

247, you summed it up perfectly.

If a player is going to rest 3 months, they most likely would need to skip fall ball, or else they are not going to begin the HS season with their arm in shape. At least that's how I do the math. In the past when his arm has bothered him it was because he tried to do too much in a single practice.

My guess is that some kids (and some positions) are more susceptible to over use injuries than others. I also theorize that some kids need more work to keep their arms healthy. That means that each has to find the right balance.

In my son's case, I suspect he will take a couple of weeks off in November like he did last year.

Come to think of it, this year he had the least amount of complaints about his arm after having the least amount of time off.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
more doesn't always equal better

While that is true, in the broad, sweeping sense stated... it's as relative as saying 3 months rest is the right formula for every athlete. We've all stated, a player needs hi-level repetitive skill sets. A great pitcher better be able to repeat their delivery and a great hitter better be able to duplicate good swing mechanics. All those skills are greatly improved thru quality reps. Specifically, more quality reps = better athlete.

Here's another way to look at rest. Some kids need more, some kids need less. All kids need some. There is no magical formula, every player is different. And, an older/healthy player should be able to learn to determine what their individual needs are.

No doubt injuries are a part of the equation, I just don't think set time off can ensure injuries won't occur. What about a healthy guy who takes off three months and then injures himself trying to get back in shape?

GED10DaD

I think it's a fluid formula. Different for every athlete (as has been stated).

Primary position can influence this too. If a kid has been pitching regularly all Spring/ Summer, into Fall...I'd err on the side of caution there. As in take some time off from throwing, but then get back to THROWING (notice I didn't say pitching).

Personally I tell all my guys to take at least one FULL month off from throwing / swinging a bat.

I haven't seen anyone negatively affected from this approach yet.

But every player is different. I've got a couple of kids who, at 15, can throw more pitches without tiring (and seeing their mechanics suffer because of this) than the player next to them, and it's not always about size or strength.

I also see some kids that take so many BP swings they get tired. And when they are tired their mechanics suffer, and it's effectively teaching bad muscle memory.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

You have to play to improve.

more doesn't always equal better

Doing nothing rarly improves a position players game or position relative to other players. Sure a lot bad pratice can damage a players game, but part of the evolution process is trying new stuff to see what works and what doesn't work, especially in the offseason.

I've noticed as position players advance levels there are fewer and fewer players who don't have a serious weekly offseason workout plan that includes weight lifting, throwing, defensive work, and hitting. Its very compeitive out there. My son's biggest dilema about the offseason isn't how much to work out, its about who to work out with.

If your kid's a catcher who is competing against my son for playing time, and lets say they are evenly matched today, will your son want to take off next month if he knows my son is working out 5-6 days a week during that period?

If your not working to get better you are falling behind those that are. The higher you move up in the game the more that becomes apparent. A typical college baseball player will leave a 50-60 game college game season - go directly into a summer league where he plays almost every day and works out on some game days and almost every off day - go directly back to college from the summer season and start fall work outs. His only real break will for over the Christmas Holiday break - when he returns to school he will begin to prepare for the college season.

If a hs player aspires to play at the next level he better be a kid that has to be told to take a break and not one that has to be told to stop taking a break or he wont last very long. And we I say break what I am talking about is a break from the throwing motion not from working on the things that allows you to throw harder.

You have a short window of opportunity in this game. Take all the breaks you want to take when your 35. If your taking breaks now your breaks will start much sooner than that. The players that complain the most of a tired arm , being tired and worn out are the players that dont do enough then try to do too much. Not the ones that train hard and then enter the season prepared to compete.

If a grown man can get up every morning and roof houses, lay brick, etc etc then a young man certainly has the stamina to get up every morning and work at a game that he loves without worrying about burning out. Throwing on a consistent basis and working out on a consistent basis is muchless of a risk to a young mans arm than sitting on his rump for 3 months and then having to rush himself into shape in order to compete.

Others will disagree and some will point to studies. I will point to years of experience watching those that train and prepare being muchless likely to complain of sore arms, injuries than those that take breaks. JMO thats all.

There are many players from other countries who have played long and hard, and I suspect they did not take months off along the way.

I really think there's a lot about genetics and conditioning which contribute to how durable a player is over a season and over time. For instance, my son is built with a strong lower body. He can catch a double header and not complain about anything hurting other than his feet. He's never had a sore knee (knock wood). Once you see him, you'll know why. He has stout legs, without spending much time conditioning his legs, other than playing.

On the other hand, he has long arms (relative to his height), and he has to condition his arm consistently to keep it feeling the way he wants it to feel, and occasionally will ice it or rest it. This has gotten to be less of a factor as he has gotten older, learned what works for him, and spent a lot of time in the weight room. That being said, if he changes his mechanics (makes outfield throws instead of catchers), he may get sore.

No one answer will fit all. One thing which sets successful atheletes apart from others is understanding of what works for them.

Physical conditioning is like walking up a down escaltor. If you aren't moving you are losing ground. Those of us who are older know that to be the case!

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If a hs player aspires to play at the next level he better be a kid that has to be told to take a break and not one that has to be told to stop taking a break or he wont last very long.

There is a lot of truth to that statment. If you have to tell your kid to workout he is probebely done.

With respect to cold weather areas, there is almost always a place or way to work out, it might involve throwing or hitting off a tee into a net, taking grounders in the gym or any dry surface, but it can be done by the serious player. Players don't need a pitching machine or full field to workout. As players advanced they seem to rely more and more on the batting tee and easy bp tosses and avoid most pitching machines. The hard part with a serious HS player is finding another serious player on his team to work out with.

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I've noticed as position players advance levels there are fewer and fewer players who don't have a serious weekly offseason workout plan that includes weight lifting, throwing, defensive work, and hitting. Its very compeitive out there. My son's biggest dilema about the offseason isn't how much to work out, its about who to work out with.

True statements! Train and then train some more if you want to get to an advanced level in anything. Tell me how a conditioned, mature body gets stronger, or a skill enhanced, by taking time away from the "specificity" of your sport.

A few decades back I was fortunate enough to attend a "Seminar" hosted by a Korean Grand Master. He was in his eighties and had been training daily for over sixty five years. Most of us in attendance were in prime condition and had been training for on average about twenty years.

I need to back up and explain that these types of sessions last all day and aren't sit down, take notes kind of seminars. They are conditioning and training sessions that provide an opportunity to learn from the very best. This man led us in warm ups (I laugh because the warm-up was about an hour and half long and more strenuous then most of you could imagine), then sparring and finally stretching. Imagine an 80 year old man leading other men more than half his age in stretching, punching, kicking and then fighting!

How did his body and skills get to that level? Well, for sure he never in his adult life took one, two or three days, weeks or months off from training.

Back to what Coach May said; "others will cite studies and Dr. Andrews and Joe Blow and so on," but I only know what I have seen and experienced.

No time off Prime Jr. He can rest and recuperate when he no longer wishes to compete or perform at a high level.

Uh oh, my kid went to a HS football game tonight. Maybe I'll have him do 200 pushups tonight before he goes to bed, so he can catch up.

Lol Sultan I know your just joking. But if you happen to catch him doing some push ups after he gets home don't stop him let him finish.

Coach May, he is working like a madman this fall. I'm proud of him.

You should be. I hope he has a great season.

I was in the same situation as most of your son's the last year to two years. Living in Arizona I had the chance to play all year without any rest and I did. The only break I would ever take was a week before tryouts and a week in between summer and fall ball. Being a catcher now working back from labrum surgery and a day after completing my first fall of college baseball without an ab or inning behind the plate I probably would've taken a little more time off. Everyone wants to talk about the time they would be missing if they took 3 months off, but when you have to sit out because of arm issues you might think about it. Heck, I am making up for the time I could've taken off my junior and senior year of hs. The only thing is I'm doing it as a freshman in college. By the way... I was that kid who never had arm pain up until spring of my senior season.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I think it's a fluid formula. Different for every athlete (as has been stated).

Primary position can influence this too. If a kid has been pitching regularly all Spring/ Summer, into Fall...I'd err on the side of caution there. As in take some time off from throwing, but then get back to THROWING (notice I didn't say pitching).

Personally I tell all my guys to take at least one FULL month off from throwing / swinging a bat.

I haven't seen anyone negatively affected from this approach yet.

But every player is different. I've got a couple of kids who, at 15, can throw more pitches without tiring (and seeing their mechanics suffer because of this) than the player next to them, and it's not always about size or strength.

I also see some kids that take so many BP swings they get tired. And when they are tired their mechanics suffer, and it's effectively teaching bad muscle memory.

Good stuff. I think that all players are different and all ages should be a consideration. As well as position. One can shut it down for a month, two or three but that doesn't mean doing NOTHING. I think that is where the confusion lies.

When son entered HS we were aware that the most important time in recruiting would be as a junior, so we placed limitations on the seasons, living in a year round play state. I am glad that we did that, so he could make it past HS. You can't escape that time with a heavier bb work load so plan accordingly would be my suggestion (based on the player).

Funny thing I have noticed, as a professional, you work year round, after the season it still doesn't stop, even pitchers with a heavy work load will shut down for a bit and then back in the gym in 2 weeks, then tossing shortly afterwards, yet he has had more issues with injuries since in HS and college.

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One can shut it down for a month, two or three but that doesn't mean doing NOTHING. I think that is where the confusion lies.

I think this is an EXCELLENT point and I think it's one that many people don't understand. When Dr. Andrews says take three months off, he means take three months off from throwing. At least that is my take on it and working in sports medicine, that is the common idea.

An athlete should take short breaks sporadically throughout the year from physical activity, but I would never shut down somebody that is healthy and keep them out of the weight room. Every 8-12 weeks I would take a week off from the weight room, but barring injury no sustained time off.

http://www.ericcressey.com/you...s-thank-your-coaches
check out this article by a top strength baseball trainer...very interesting
http://bit.ly/winmoregames

I love that line "fall ball is about as useful as a trap door in a life boat."

quote:

Originally posted by MilesNolandcoach:
http://www.ericcressey.com/you...s-thank-your-coaches
check out this article by a top strength baseball trainer...very interesting
http://bit.ly/winmoregames

good article. JR as a 2014 is just getting into the recruiting process and therefore, showcases. We have refrained from doing any this fall because he has spent August thru now in training for both basketball and baseball thru strength and condition as well as the basics skills of both. However he hasn't pitched since the end of July. We, as well as his summer coach, have begun to talk about next year as far as August thru October and what he will need to do to be prepared more for that part of the recruiting process. big topic is innings per week. The really nice thing is his head coach played in college, so understands. He is setting up a pitching rotation for each player (we have 5-6 starting pitchers and 4 relievers on our 13 man roster). the simple goal, get them seen and redy for next level, not to win tournaments. Gotta love Coach Bob and his understanding of player first!

This thread is very timely for us as my 2013 has recently shut down his pitching and throwing program until Christmas. This decision is being met with a little skeptism and/or pressure from schools and coaches to keep pitching and specifically regarding attending their respective camps so that they can get a better look at him.

A little background- 2013 hurt his knee and had surgery in April 2010. He didn't pick up a baseball for 90 days and began longtossing in July and then in August throwing off mound and pitching in fall league. Continued this through winter and pitched at PG National Underclass, high school season, summer and fall season and concluded with PG Underclass 2 1/2 weeks ago. In August we started to see a fairly significant drop in velo (and then football contributed to it). Probably fatigue (NOT injury) and then took a little break and got velo back up to 86-87 for Kernals and Underclass.

So he is not going to throw a ball until Christmas break when he'll start playing catch, mover to long toss, flat work and then the mound by mid January. Will aim to be at max velo for PG pitcher/catcher in February and then high school season.

He's gotten quite a bit of interest from several D1 schools. They all want him to come to camps over the next 8-10 weeks. We are firm in not doing it though. Hope it doesn't hurt but they'll all have lots of opportunities to see him early next year - on his schedule not theirs.

This doesn't mean he'll stop lifting and training though and will definitely start doing some hitting and fielding work in November as he does play corner infield too.

Bottom line is he threw for 16 months straight and the arm needs a break. If it hurts his stock with some schools so be it...

Update: My son's catching instructor (10 plus years as a pro) recommended that he take 3 weeks off from baseball. Son will still be working out, just not playing baseball or throwing.