When Will Williamsport Stop the Embarrassment?

Hearing the Umpire say during the China vs. Mexico game last night - "you know, I don’t speak Taiwanese so how would I know if he is stealing your signs, heck I don’t speak "Mexican" either".

Money can’t buy entertainment like that...

I have to assume that the umps are told to call strikes in the vicinity of homeplate. It seems the batters box chalk line is the edge of the plate at least. As much as I enjoy watching, these strike calls make me change the station many times.

This is not the problem, but a symptom.

LL is using the kids and adults that participate to make money. They've managed to create one of the most ingenious schemes around--get everyone to work for free (and in fact, actually pay to work,) get sponsors to subsidize the organization, and sit back and keep the profit. They have accomplished this by *******izing LL's reputation of purity and innocence shown through baseball, a reputation which has never been reality-based as long as I have lived.

The only level at which LL is even argumentatively competitive with other organizations is Majors. Anything above that, LL is pathetically left behind in the dust. Other organizations have taken the position that it's about baseball, not about some mystique that has been carefully cultivated and manipulated. That's why you can take any other program and see more competitive baseball due to better talent, better coaching, better development, better umpiring, etc.

The answer to the question why they won't pay to get better umpires is because they don't need to, and indeed, can't. People will keep watching the LLWS (which, being on ESPN, is the major revenue source, whether directly or indirectly) as long as LL can keep its image wholesome, so the quality of umpiring, to be blunt, is moot. Paying umpires would undermine LL's public stance that it's all about the kids and adults should be helping out of the goodness of their hearts. If this facade were breached, LL would cease to exist. It's the most open secret in the sports world, but for some reason, it persists.

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Originally posted by Matt13:…The only level at which LL is even argumentatively competitive with other organizations is Majors. Anything above that, LL is pathetically left behind in the dust. …

What do you think is LLI’s “purpose”? As I remember it, it had nothing to do with competiveness.

Can't watch it at all anymore. A very small number of people are making a killing with the amount of money being made. The amount of improperly thrown curve balls is enough to make me cringe. Adding 5 months to the age limit has completely ruined LLBB.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats
What do you think is LLI’s “purpose”? As I remember it, it had nothing to do with competiveness.

Actual purpose? See the post above this one.

LL is a volunteer organization except at the HQ level. The umpires are volunteers doing their best. The tv ratings are high. Where's the problem?

I can see where umpires sail through a LL season, then get to Williamsport and have to call a game that's moving much faster than it moves all year for them. My only criticism of the umpiring is post season umpiring appointments is a good ole boys network. A horrible umpire from our league with twenty years umpiring LL (paid his dues) has done the state championships more than once.

In our league this umpire called one of my runners out for failure to slide when the pitcher ran him over while he was crossing plate after a wild pitch and there wasn't a throw creating a play at the plate. The rule is "avoid contact." But how can a blindsided runner avoid contact when there isn't a play? So an umpire that doesn't know the rules gets a state championship appointment. He's trying to get the LLWS.

quote:

Originally posted by birdman14:
Can't watch it at all anymore. A very small number of people are making a killing with the amount of money being made. The amount of improperly thrown curve balls is enough to make me cringe. Adding 5 months to the age limit has completely ruined LLBB.

It was USA Baseball's decision, not LL. Every member organization made the move.

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They've managed to create one of the most ingenious schemes around--get everyone to work for free (and in fact, actually pay to work,) get sponsors to subsidize the organization, and sit back and keep the profit.

What profit? All revenues goes back into the program. LL is a NFP.

If you've ever read the biography of Carl Stoltz, you will learn that the original reason for Little League was to provide kids with an opportunity to play a "real" game, with uniforms, umpires, etc., at a reduced-diamond size that was appropriate to their age and skill level.

Stoltz's original model involved tryouts and cuts so that the level of play would be competitive. They used real cuts, where some kids who wanted to play didn't get to play at all. Not the kind of cuts that went on in my day, where you just went back to a less-challenging level. (Today there are no cuts at all, and Barney the Purple Dinosaur is in charge -- everyone is special.)

Stoltz was later forced out by the corporate sponsor-oriented board members who came into the picture, because they wanted to pursue what was then the early stages of what LL has become -- a PR-oriented venture that focuses on the glory of childhood, a "no cuts" philosophy, and the indulgence of a cadre of people who are like Catbert -- they enjoy making rules for the fun of watching people chafe under them.

As to the USA Baseball thing, USAB wanted the age change, but LLUSA had the power to say no. I mean, USAB ordered LLUSA around? Talk about the tail wagging the dog. The aging date move was just plain stupid, a result of purely bureaucratic thinking with complete disregard for the reality of what was going on on the field.

By the way, USAB wants the aging date eventually to move to January 1. The move from May 1 to August 1 was always intended as an intermediate step, not the final end. Which raises the question of whether we'll someday see EVEN OLDER 13's on the 60' diamond, or whether the move to Jan. 1 will be accompanied by making the Majors division an 11u division.

Back to my original point--

It may well be that the umps are told to expand the zone.

But how does that explain the fact that some clear strikes are being called balls?

Usually the ball/strike problem is one of the zone being overly large, but not always. And it still doesn't address the problems with out/safe calls. This is what leads me to believe we're not dealing with something intentional. We're dealing with gross incompetence, with those in charge sitting back and letting it go on and on and on year after year.

Let's see...

Do MLB umps have entire teams that don't speak English?

Do MLB umps have TV replay calls for any play?

LLWS umps are expected to do the most difficult umpiring job in the world - on national TV.

I think they are doing a great job.

It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

I have loved it for years even though I say LL can not come close to the travel leagues. But I still watch. It has gotten worse every year. As hard as the kid from Japan threw I'm not sure he threw more than one legitimate strike to any batter. At this level, as the umpire at the Elite 32 told us last week, your pitcher should be able to throw it over the plate. If not, put another one in. This is suppose to be the best of the best as they say so make them throw strikes or at least within a foot of the plate. It is batters box to batters box nose to toes and that is a joke to be considered the best that LL has to offer. I don't think it is the umpires but the LL itself and ESPN. The announcers said the other night that the umps are told to give them some wider strikes and up and down to keep the game going. I feel sorry for the batters because they don't know what to take.

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Originally posted by Matt13:
Actual purpose? See the post above this one.

That’s what BM perceives as the purpose, but I’m talking about the stated purpose of their organization. It used to be in their rule book, but I found it here as their mission. http://www.littleleague.org/le...dmission/mission.htm

Where in there is anything about developing ML players, or players for any level for that matter. LLI is not in business to develop your kid, but rather to give him an opportunity to play the game. If you are after development, go to another venue, which many people do. But that doesn’t make LLI some evil entity out to steal money out of anyone’s wallet.

It is youth baseball, simple as that. You're not going to get the best umpires. They are going to miss a lot of calls. And they are going to expand the strike zone a little bit, otherwise it becomes a walk fest.

As for Little Leauge itself, imo it is way behind the times. One only needs to look at their discussions to realize they are overly concerned with senseless rules and resistant to change. In my area, Little Leauge affilated programs are struggling. A couple had to merge and one even dropped its affiliation a few years ago. Looking at the LLWS it is obvious that the field is too small and these boys could play an expanded format with 50/70 dimensions, open bases, etc. Let's also not forget the "little secret" that most of these kids really play travel ball.

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Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
So my question is this:

At what point do they start paying to get umpires who have rudimentary umpiring skills?

For Pete's sake, the HD TV coverage is just exposing the umpiring at a level of embarrassment that is beyond all prior proportions. Basic out/safe calls, pitches 18" off the plate called strikes, etc.

As the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for." And since the umpires are all volunteers and not "paid", that's what you get. I realize that even "paid" umpires don't get every call correct - I saw a fair amount of bad or questionable calls at the HS level this year. The wide strike zone I can live with if I as a coach knew this in advance. But I agree some of the rudimentary "routine" calls were, in some cases, terrible.

One example - I believe it was in the Connecticut/Indiana game (?) - a ball hit along the 3rd base line was clearly foul (close but still foul by what I saw - the ball never made it into fair territory). The ump made a vague signal it was foul, yet the 3rd baseman fielded it resulting in a bang-bang play at the 1st. I don't know what everyone was looking at, but from the angle shown, the ball was never over the bag. End result - the umps consulted the replay booth - ruled it was a "fair ball", but ruled the batter out at first. I was very surprised at the ruling. Even the commentators were somewhat taken back by the ruling.

I accept the LLWS (Majors division) for what it is. It's not pure baseball - it's a modified version of the game. It's not until the players get to the Junior level that they begin to play the game the way it suppose to be played (lead offs, dropped 3rd strikes, etc).

Little League serves its purposes and does it well. I don't think you can compare LL to the travel teams fairly. IMHO, there is no comparison.

LL must be doing something right - they claim to be the largest youth organization in the world. Think about this - before most kids went to a "travel" ball team, where did they most likely begin playing baseball? Yep - Little League.......

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Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

Go figure! A team with cherry picked players not restricted by boundaries could beat an all-star team resticted to a small population zone. What you may find is the top pitchers in the LLWS also play travel and could stand your team on it's head. But man for man from top to bottom of a roster a travel team will be much stronger than a LL all-star for reasons already stated.

I don't like the NBA. I don't like soap operas. And I don't like reality TV shows. So I don't watch them on TV. If you don't like little league, then don't watch it.

My son and I used to watch it obsessively until he was 12. We felt we could relate, and yeah, talk about how he would have no trouble competing. It did get hard to watch for a few years because it seemed "different" then what he played. But now he is 17 and we find ourselves watching quite a bit of it this year. It's nostalgic for us. Brings back some good memories of when he was younger. For that, I enjoy it!

Watched a fair amount (not all) of California-Connecticut this evening. Best job on balls and strikes I've seen so far.

I was thinking, maybe I should've waited and not posted earlier today.

But then the first base ump bailed me out with an absolutely absurd "out" call where the runner's foot hit the bag when there was still 3 feet of air between the ball and the first baseman's mitt.

Replay being available, the call was immediately overturned.

But hey, it's not like it mattered. Just the last turn at bat for the losing team, which was trying to rally.

BTW, the replay showed the ump in proper position staring right at the play. I don't know how to explain him getting it wrong. But I guess if Sultan says he's doing a great job, then he must be doing a great job. I mean, it's not like there are thousands of other umpires you could've hired who could've somehow managed to get that call right.

But wait ... there are. As one example, my 16-year-old niece, a softball player who umpires LL games for pay, routinely gets that call right. As do any number of paid umps every day. Or the volunteer dads who handle the games at the lower age groups. Sheesh.

Doing a great job? Have you seen any of these games this year? Or were you joking?

Bottom line is the strike zone that runs from the batter's box to batter's box is a joke. Catchers are setting up behind the batter's box and getting called strikes. I never seen anything like it. These kids should be able to throw the ball over the plate so why ignore the size of the plate and use the batter's box as the strike zone makes no sense. A combined 30 strikeout game is a joke. All these pitchers aren't that dominant and all these hitters can't be that lame. Watching a strikeoutfest because of the vastly expanded strike zone is as bad as watching a walkfest. Whether the umpires are that bad or they're being directed to be this bad is a mistake by whoever's making the decision and is making the game itself a bigger farce than it already is.

For starters, they need to get junior league age kids off the 46/60 field by moving the age cutoff back to 12/31 and make it a true 12U game again. How many 11 yr olds are on these teams? Can't be too many when you could get a kid two years older and much bigger that belong on 60/90 fields. . And they need to play on bigger fields like 50/75.
If these changes aren't made, then it'll continue to resemble a pinball game.

While the venue itself is a big deal and all, I find myself turning off games and coming back in the 6th innings to see if they go extra innings if nothing else for the excitement of that and catching reaction from both teams after a walkoff win. To that point, other than a few odd plays, the little league game is tough to watch with the strikeoutfest.

There is a simple explanation.

The strike zone was widened to compensate for the fact that anything thrown over the plate tends to leave the yard very quickly. Some of these games would be 22-18 slugfests if the strike zone was actually used.

Enforce the zone, make the kids actually hit with wood bats and then the game would be a lot more fun, and a lot more competitive.

quote:

BTW, the replay showed the ump in proper position staring right at the play. I don't know how to explain him getting it wrong. But I guess if Sultan says he's doing a great job, then he must be doing a great job. I mean, it's not like there are thousands of other umpires you could've hired who could've somehow managed to get that call right.

But wait ... there are. As one example, my 16-year-old niece, a softball player who umpires LL games for pay, routinely gets that call right. As do any number of paid umps every day. Or the volunteer dads who handle the games at the lower age groups. Sheesh.

You mean like MLB's Jim Joyce? Maybe he'd volunteer?

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MidloDad said...Watched a fair amount (not all) of California-Connecticut this evening. Best job on balls and strikes I've seen so far.

Agreed. Best home plate umpiring I've seen so far (Cal vs CT). But it not enough to make up for all the other bad umpiring in Williamsport.

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MidloDad asked...When Will Williamsport Stop the Embarrassment?

Answer...When someone or something threatens their financial situation or someone in power calls them out publically. Hopefully soon.

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But wait ... there are. As one example, my 16-year-old niece, a softball player who umpires LL games for pay, routinely gets that call right. As do any number of paid umps every day. Or the volunteer dads who handle the games at the lower age groups. Sheesh

It's a little different umpiring a local game and umpiring on national television. I'll bet these people can ace Jeopardy from their living room sofa too.

Every year at this time, no one but a group of anti-LL people hemorrhage about the LLWS. For 99% of the people who care the LLWS a great event.

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When Will Williamsport Stop the Embarrassment?

Whose embarassed other than anti LL people who have no involvement in LL? The people involved aren't embarassed. The sponsors aren't embarassed. The viewers aren't embarassed. Only people who are anti LL think it's an embarassment. When is Mercedes going to be embarassed they make cars not everyone likes?

RJM
You must be the LL protector. I agree it is good recreation ball for sub-par players mostly. But don't give me that deal that these players are the best or these pitchers are the best. Look them up and most of them play on AA USSSA teams and don't win. Most of these pitchers can't throw strikes it doesn't matter how hard you throw a fast ball in elite travel ball it will get rocked. And how many of them live off the curve ball and don't tell me it is a mechanically sound curve ball.
I enjoy a few minutes of it because it is entertaining but not good baseball. After having seen the best at 10, 11, and 12 play in the top tournaments this year, these guys could not hold a candle to the best teams. The National Youth Baseball Championships started yesterday in Memphis. YOu can't tell me just watching the promo that these teams could compete.

I would say enough about the pitchers who can't throw strikes. Let's face it. If you were given a strike zone that included the opposite batter's box, wouldn't you be using it? After watching the Japan - Chinese Taipai game, it was evident that the teams were doing exactly that. The commentators even remarked about them "stretching" the strike zone. At any level, it is just smart baseball to figure out the umpire's strike zone and exploit those "corners".

Believe me, I've seen enough strange strike zones in high school ball where the pitchers took advantage. It's the moving strike zones that drive me crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
There is a simple explanation.

The strike zone was widened to compensate for the fact that anything thrown over the plate tends to leave the yard very quickly. Some of these games would be 22-18 slugfests if the strike zone was actually used.

Enforce the zone, make the kids actually hit with wood bats and then the game would be a lot more fun, and a lot more competitive.

I think the better solution would be to go to 50 ft pitching mound distance and 70 ft bases.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

Go figure! A team with cherry picked players not restricted by boundaries could beat an all-star team resticted to a small population zone. What you may find is the top pitchers in the LLWS also play travel and could stand your team on it's head. But man for man from top to bottom of a roster a travel team will be much stronger than a LL all-star for reasons already stated.

I find it hard to believe that many of the LLWS teams are not hand-picked.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
There is a simple explanation.

The strike zone was widened to compensate for the fact that anything thrown over the plate tends to leave the yard very quickly. Some of these games would be 22-18 slugfests if the strike zone was actually used.

Enforce the zone, make the kids actually hit with wood bats and then the game would be a lot more fun, and a lot more competitive.

Which is why LL has to get teenagers off the baby fields and on to the big diamond. If they move the fences back 20 ft and go to a 50/75 field you'd see better baseball. There' be more contact, double plays which will cut down on pitch counts and outfielders will actually learn to cut off balls instead of letting them roll to rhe short fence and retrieving tbe ball. Most of the OF play on basehits have been pretty bad. Most 50/70 ripken ball players which are mostly town rec allstars can make better plays because they learn to, so there's no reason why a LL allstar can't

While the LLWS is the best youth baseball event, The
game on the field definitely is in need of an overhaul

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
RJM
You must be the LL protector. I agree it is good recreation ball for sub-par players mostly. But don't give me that deal that these players are the best or these pitchers are the best. Look them up and most of them play on AA USSSA teams and don't win. Most of these pitchers can't throw strikes it doesn't matter how hard you throw a fast ball in elite travel ball it will get rocked. And how many of them live off the curve ball and don't tell me it is a mechanically sound curve ball.
I enjoy a few minutes of it because it is entertaining but not good baseball. After having seen the best at 10, 11, and 12 play in the top tournaments this year, these guys could not hold a candle to the best teams. The National Youth Baseball Championships started yesterday in Memphis. YOu can't tell me just watching the promo that these teams could compete.

It's not being a protector. I have perspective. Where a kid plays his preteen ball has ZERO impact on whether he becomes a high school player or beyond. To me whether it's LL or Super Duper These Players Are Imported Studs From All Over The Country Ball, it's still just preteen kids playing baseball. I don't care if they play AA travel or Super Duper These Players Are Imported Studs From All Over The Country level. And any suggestion that kids from a boundaried area of 15-20K population could compete with teams who can recruit the Super Duper Studs from all over the country is insane. I would suggest YOU are the one with the problem. And for reasons I can't comprehend. It's only kids playing baseball. Why watch college sports? They make far more mistakes and are more erratic in their play than professionals. Why watch D2 and D3 sports? They're not as good as D1. Maybe D2 and D3 sports along with LL should be eliminated? Only the best should be allowed to play?

Secondly, where my son grew up everyone came through LL and CR. They still do. Preteen travel is a secondary team used to place potential LL/CR all-star teams in Sunday doubleheader competition against other like teams to prep for the tournament or to extend playing past rec ball into the summer.

LL has the branding power due to it's longevity and being on tv since the early 60's. The casual viewer is not going to be intrigued by The Heat playing The Blaze in the Super Duper These Players Are Imported Studs From All Over The Country Tournament. But can be drawn into the game by rooting for their region.

I remember seeing the 12U Triple Crown championship on TV one time. The production of the braodcast was poor. The play wasn't that much better than the LLWS. It's still twelve year olds playing ball.

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Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

Go figure! A team with cherry picked players not restricted by boundaries could beat an all-star team resticted to a small population zone. What you may find is the top pitchers in the LLWS also play travel and could stand your team on it's head. But man for man from top to bottom of a roster a travel team will be much stronger than a LL all-star for reasons already stated.

I find it hard to believe that many of the LLWS teams are not hand-picked.

Every LL all-star team comes from a LL that has boundries of 15-20K population. Parents have to provide multiple forms of proof of residency within the LL boundaries.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
There is a simple explanation.

The strike zone was widened to compensate for the fact that anything thrown over the plate tends to leave the yard very quickly. Some of these games would be 22-18 slugfests if the strike zone was actually used.

Enforce the zone, make the kids actually hit with wood bats and then the game would be a lot more fun, and a lot more competitive.

Which is why LL has to get teenagers off the baby fields and on to the big diamond. If they move the fences back 20 ft and go to a 50/75 field you'd see better baseball. There' be more contact, double plays which will cut down on pitch counts and outfielders will actually learn to cut off balls instead of letting them roll to rhe short fence and retrieving tbe ball. Most of the OF play on basehits have been pretty bad. Most 50/70 ripken ball players which are mostly town rec allstars can make better plays because they learn to, so there's no reason why a LL allstar can't

While the LLWS is the best youth baseball event, The
game on the field definitely is in need of an overhaul

LL is trialing 50/70 open base baseball in LL around the country. This is how LL proceeds before making an across the board move. Our LL was a trial ground for pitch counts.

Another issue LL will have to plan for before making a change to the LLWS is reconfiguration of the fields. If you've been to Williamsport you know moving fences back another 20-30 feet from 225 will not be an easy task. Plus I'm willing to bet the environmentalists will go nuts about digging further into the large hill.

Whether they do a good job or not, shouldn't the umpires be paid? Shouldn't the choices of umpire be made based on merit?

The umpires are not paid? Is this a local thing?

RJM,
Good job laying out the facts.

Every August, like clockwork, the morons beat their chests about how select 12u ringer teams--drawn from a huge population area--can beat LLWS teams drawn from populations of 15-20K.

I've never been involved with LL Baseball. But I've attended the LLWS a few times. Extremely well run.

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Originally posted by JPontiac:
Whether they do a good job or not, shouldn't the umpires be paid? Shouldn't the choices of umpire be made based on merit?

They don't have to be paid. But it should be on merit rather than the good ole boy network and tenure.

When my son played sections his twelve year old season one of the umpires came back to umpire since he still had his LL certification. MLB gave him a week to go home to get his affairs in order upon his promotion from AAA. He volunteered to umpire sections since the host league was where he got his umpiring start. He was better than the rest. But he didn't get every call right.