When Will Williamsport Stop the Embarrassment?

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:
RJM,
Good job laying out the facts.

Every August, like clockwork, the morons beat their chests about how select 12u ringer teams--drawn from a huge population area--can beat LLWS teams drawn from populations of 15-20K.

I've never been involved with LL Baseball. But I've attended the LLWS a few times. Extremely well run.

When I had a 13U USSSA team we scheduled a doubleheader with the local LL Jrs (13/14) all star team that went on to be state runnerup. My team was a collection of many of the best LL all-stars from districts the previous year. We pounded them in both games even though the Jrs team was mostly fourteen year olds. When we played the state CR 13U champions from a bordering state in a tournament we beat them 22-0. Their ace held us to seven runs in three innings. Once he was out it was circle the bases in the 4th. It's the nature of travel versus rec with boundaries.

From when my son was twelve the LL all-star team that went to the LLWS from our state remained a travel team the following year. They only added some pitching depth for tournaments. They never won a tournament. But they often made the semis.

Anybody who tunes in KNOWS after 5 years that the umpiring is horrible..its a GIVEN..so just enjoy it as much as those kids do.There is some good baseball in spite of the inconsistent umpiring..

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:
RJM,
Good job laying out the facts.

Every August, like clockwork, the morons beat their chests about how select 12u ringer teams--drawn from a huge population area--can beat LLWS teams drawn from populations of 15-20K.

I've never been involved with LL Baseball. But I've attended the LLWS a few times. Extremely well run.

When I had a 13U USSSA team we scheduled a doubleheader with the local LL Jrs (13/14) all star team that went on to be state runnerup. My team was a collection of many of the best LL all-stars from districts the previous year. We pounded them in both games even though the Jrs team was mostly fourteen year olds. When we played the state CR 13U champions from a bordering state in a tournament we beat them 22-0. Their ace held us to seven runs in three innings. Once he was out it was circle the bases in the 4th. It's the nature of travel versus rec with boundaries.

From when my son was twelve the LL all-star team that went to the LLWS from our state remained a travel team the following year. They only added some pitching depth for tournaments. They never won a tournament. But they often made the semis.

So basically what you have experienced is if you want your kid to develop as a better baseball player then find a good travel team (including good coaching).

I just think the LLWS is way over rated now that I have 2 years of travel ball perspective under my belt.

I went to the LLWS in 2000 and loved the trip. I still watch every year. I know what it is and, for what it is it's fun.

What I hate is that kids' hopes and dreams get dashed not on the merits, but because someone decides the plate is 35" wide today. Or someone else decides it's only 12" wide.

No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But when someone in an important position makes mistakes repeatedly, typically there is accountability and they are replaced. I don't think everyone who makes a bad call should be canned. But you can't watch these games without cringing over how the umpires are way too much of a factor in how the games turn out.

Those who want to bash LL would probably also like to get rid of Santa Claus. Look at all the good memories excitement and love both have generated and yes BILLIONS of dollars have changed hands. Hopefully after kids have grown up they know how to give good gifts and hit a baseball. Our communities and our economy are better of because of them.

Long Live Childhood.

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:
RJM,
Good job laying out the facts.

Every August, like clockwork, the morons beat their chests about how select 12u ringer teams--drawn from a huge population area--can beat LLWS teams drawn from populations of 15-20K.

I've never been involved with LL Baseball. But I've attended the LLWS a few times. Extremely well run.

When I had a 13U USSSA team we scheduled a doubleheader with the local LL Jrs (13/14) all star team that went on to be state runnerup. My team was a collection of many of the best LL all-stars from districts the previous year. We pounded them in both games even though the Jrs team was mostly fourteen year olds. When we played the state CR 13U champions from a bordering state in a tournament we beat them 22-0. Their ace held us to seven runs in three innings. Once he was out it was circle the bases in the 4th. It's the nature of travel versus rec with boundaries.

From when my son was twelve the LL all-star team that went to the LLWS from our state remained a travel team the following year. They only added some pitching depth for tournaments. They never won a tournament. But they often made the semis.

So basically what you have experienced is if you want your kid to develop as a better baseball player then find a good travel team (including good coaching).

I just think the LLWS is way over rated now that I have 2 years of travel ball perspective under my belt.

Where we lived starting at thirteen on the 60/90 field in travel was the way to go. It was also two years from high school. It was time to learn the nuances of the game against the best competition. Preteen ball is about learning fundamentals and developing a passion for the game. That can be accomplished in any preteen baseball organization.

We love LL. That being said it has a whole lotta flaws. It always has. Nothing beats playing with your friends and trying to win a championship. Knowing that the kids around you are not the best, but they might make a spectacular play or knock their first HR or the first hit in their life to win a game.

Kinda like HS ball.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
LL is trialing 50/70 open base baseball in LL around the country. This is how LL proceeds before making an across the board move. Our LL was a trial ground for pitch counts.

Another issue LL will have to plan for before making a change to the LLWS is reconfiguration of the fields. If you've been to Williamsport you know moving fences back another 20-30 feet from 225 will not be an easy task. Plus I'm willing to bet the environmentalists will go nuts about digging further into the large hill.

That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay.

As for moving back the fences at Willy, it's only knocking away some hill so not sure why environmental nuts would make a big deal about it but I suppose if they can find something to protest, they will.

Second night in a row, HPU doing a far, far better job on balls and strikes.

Is it possible that someone is evaluating the guys as the week moves along, and that in these latter stages, those with better evaluations are getting the call?

Or maybe there was a meeting held to ask the umps to get their acts together?

Either way, better late than never. With 70,000 coming in person this weekend and millions preparing to watch on TV, you don't need any game's outcome decided by one HPU's adoption of "his" strike zone.

quote:

That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay

I don't think every town is willing/able to change their field dimension$ or add a new field unless someone else would like to pay for it.

From what I have read, LL is planning on adding a new division in 2013. They will add a 50-70 Division for 11-13 year olds. http://www.littleleague.org/di...rovesNewDivision.htm

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay

I don't think every town is willing/able to change their field dimension$ or add a new field unless someone else would like to pay for it.

Little League should be able to help pay for the fields to be redone. They rake in millions and millions and dont pay anybody since everybody volunteers. Little League needs to get off the pile of loot they're sitting on and spend some of it.

quote:

Originally posted by mcmmccm:
Those who want to bash LL would probably also like to get rid of Santa Claus. Look at all the good memories excitement and love both have generated and yes BILLIONS of dollars have changed hands. Hopefully after kids have grown up they know how to give good gifts and hit a baseball. Our communities and our economy are better of because of them.

Long Live Childhood.

Santa is a anagram for Satan, so says the Church Lady

quote:

Originally posted by play baseball:
The umpires are not paid? Is this a local thing?

LL rules prohibit the paying of umpires...or maybe they discourage it, I haven't been on the local board for a few years.

I do know our local league paid the umpires...wouldn't get any if we didn't pay them.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

quote:

That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay

I don't think every town is willing/able to change their field dimension$ or add a new field unless someone else would like to pay for it.

Little League should be able to help pay for the fields to be redone. They rake in millions and millions and dont pay anybody since everybody volunteers. Little League needs to get off the pile of loot they're sitting on and spend some of it.

The money LL has won't go very far for the ten of thousands of LL fields that would need to be altered. The LL my son came from would have to obtain new property. The three fields outfield fences are up against 1) a street, 2) a street and private property and 3) a marsh.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

Go figure! A team with cherry picked players not restricted by boundaries could beat an all-star team resticted to a small population zone. What you may find is the top pitchers in the LLWS also play travel and could stand your team on it's head. But man for man from top to bottom of a roster a travel team will be much stronger than a LL all-star for reasons already stated.

I find it hard to believe that many of the LLWS teams are not hand-picked.

Every LL all-star team comes from a LL that has boundries of 15-20K population. Parents have to provide multiple forms of proof of residency within the LL boundaries.

Not true on the 15k-20K population limit! National Little League provides waivers for leagues that scrape by to exist in many urban/suburban areas that local non little league youth baseball rules the roost.

quote:

Originally posted by JPontiac:
Whether they do a good job or not, shouldn't the umpires be paid? Shouldn't the choices of umpire be made based on merit?

Ever been to Cooperstown? We went a couple of years ago and were required to bring along a volunteer umpire. I went into the week dreading what we'd see behind the plate.

I've been to dozens of tournaments over the years and have to say this was the absolute best week of umpiring I've ever seen. They were all as happy to be there as the kids and they all did an awesome job.

Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.

In years past, I've occasionally looked up a really strong LLWS participant's name on utrip. In the last two years I've known of other locals that have looked up similar LLWS "stud" players names on Super Series & Nations national websites. Occasionally, one will find a near intact decent level "travel" team in the hunt for, or having made it to Williamsport. I honestly have little time & next to no interest watching this years LLWS. If there are near intact high strength 12 y/o "travel" teams that have made it to Williamsport this year, feel free & post up who they are.

Midlo,
The strike zone in the Japan v. Taiwan game was crazy. It was interesting to see that they both made adjustments crowding the plate as much as possible and swinging at pitches well off the plate.

It would also be interesting to get the height and weight stats of Panama vs the other teams. They looked to be generally much bigger which makes one wonder about the actual ages. (Like most good conspiracy theories this one didn't check out when I ran the numbers. They were on average about the same size and weight as a US team from 2004 that would've been about 3 months younger.)

Travel team versus LLUSA - doesn't it sound like private school versus public school/universities? Aren't there any geniuses coming out of public schools/universities? Or they just belong exclusively to private schools/universities. Are we comparing individuals or comparing the average? Or why do we even compare.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
It's hard for me to watch it knowing that our team could easily compete with all of the teams in the LLWS.

Go figure! A team with cherry picked players not restricted by boundaries could beat an all-star team resticted to a small population zone. What you may find is the top pitchers in the LLWS also play travel and could stand your team on it's head. But man for man from top to bottom of a roster a travel team will be much stronger than a LL all-star for reasons already stated.

I find it hard to believe that many of the LLWS teams are not hand-picked.

Every LL all-star team comes from a LL that has boundries of 15-20K population. Parents have to provide multiple forms of proof of residency within the LL boundaries.

Not true on the 15k-20K population limit! National Little League provides waivers for leagues that scrape by to exist in many urban/suburban areas that local non little league youth baseball rules the roost.

15-20K is the rule of tehumb. There are exceptions. I remember Thousand Oaks CA held off from splitting as long as they could because they saw a potential national champion coming. When the kids turned thirteen the league split in two.

In reverse, and Dad43 may know more about this, Hatboro-Horhsam PA was forced to split in two. When the league shrunk it was a hassle trying to get it back to one league for all-stars. Even though it was one league they were forced to have two all-star teams. I think they did half of an alphabet per team. But it was a competitive disadvantage that made it easier for our league to win districts three years in a row.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.

I would say the core strength of LLWS teams play travel. I wouldn't call playing in the USSSA AA Sunday doubelheader league playing travel. We did this concurently with the LL season so the sixteen kids most qualified to make all-stars faced better competition leading into all-stars. Most of the other teams in the league were doing the same thing.

The 15-20K "rule of thumb" isn't applied when a large metro area has next to no little league participation due to "travel" organization & independent leagues dominating that metro area's local youth ranks. In several such instances I've witnessed large metro areas split into two official Little Leagues (American & National). It didn'tr matter that there were over 600K resifents in those metro areas. Then, there was nothing to prevent a youth coach (or a few youth coaches) from bringing their sons & very proficient baseball playing friends (yes they all play "travel" ball together) into such a small participation metro Little League. Then as long as the players play the minimal amount of Little League league games two years in a row, they can be qualified for "all stars" selection as 12 year olds. With such a small league & concentration of talent they then get to play in the much ballyhooed tournament. Not only has this been done, but I know of several other circumstances where adults approached certain very accomplished youth players to join such a "Little League", for just such a purpose, & they were turned down. What a wholesome experience, RJM, nothing like many decades ago, when I'm sure you as well as I played Little League.

What RJM described is true in general, though there are exceptions. There is no way to compare LL with travel teams, where travel teams could cherry pick all they want. When son was 10, a "scout" noticed my son in an LL all star game. Somehow got my contact and ask if son would like to join their travel team. It far away, different town different city, no sweat, just attend the tournaments as they are in need of one more pitcher. They go to Coppertown and/or some other tournaments. Decided against it as son was still too young. When son was 12, we faced the same team in LL who had 3 or 4 players in the travel team to Coopertown. Son strung them all, gave up only one solid double. Son got a double off the top pitcher in return. So they have played for 3 years, were they any better than son? I believe they were equal - just kids having fun. When son left the mound after pitch count limit, their team and parents were clapping, a good show of respect and sportmanship. There are zero indication where son and them would end up in future when there are 18. As RJM had said, and I fully agree, let them have fun at the early age. When they are 2nd or 3rd in HS, then they might show some inclination what they want to do in their life and sport. Don't get them burnt out too early. And don't bash other teams just because you could cherry pick your team from different city and different town.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:
The 15-20K "rule of thumb" isn't applied when a large metro area has next to no little league participation due to "travel" organization & independent leagues dominating that metro area's local youth ranks. In several such instances I've witnessed large metro areas split into two official Little Leagues (American & National). It didn'tr matter that there were over 600K resifents in those metro areas. Then, there was nothing to prevent a youth coach (or a few youth coaches) from bringing their sons & very proficient baseball playing friends (yes they all play "travel" ball together) into such a small participation metro Little League. Then as long as the players play the minimal amount of Little League league games two years in a row, they can be qualified for "all stars" selection as 12 year olds. With such a small league & concentration of talent they then get to play in the much ballyhooed tournament. Not only has this been done, but I know of several other circumstances where adults approached certain very accomplished youth players to join such a "Little League", for just such a purpose, & they were turned down. What a wholesome experience, RJM, nothing like many decades ago, when I'm sure you as well as I played Little League.

LL programs get waivers if they can prove they really only have 1 15-20K population base to draw from regardless of the population by proving an existing trend of X number of players play another brand of ball or the area is overpopulated with children free families. But the objective is to have every program have about the same recruiting base. Where my son played LL almost every one eligible played. A handful played Ripken. So the leagues recruiting base was the standaard population. I know of leagues in a 50K population base because the area was over 50% seniors. There are a handful of LL's who have gamed the system. They sometimes show up at the LLWS.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can accurately evaluate LL players at the LLWS. They are playing in the "kiddie" pool.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
LL is trialing 50/70 open base baseball in LL around the country. This is how LL proceeds before making an across the board move. Our LL was a trial ground for pitch counts.

Another issue LL will have to plan for before making a change to the LLWS is reconfiguration of the fields. If you've been to Williamsport you know moving fences back another 20-30 feet from 225 will not be an easy task. Plus I'm willing to bet the environmentalists will go nuts about digging further into the large hill.

That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay.

As for moving back the fences at Willy, it's only knocking away some hill so not sure why environmental nuts would make a big deal about it but I suppose if they can find something to protest, they will.

The Little league in the next town over has completely dropped its "majors" division and has gone to 50/70. It had to in order to compete with the independent leagues in the area as well as travel ball.

Six years ago our district lost four programs just because Williamsport is so authoritative over the leagues. These leagues figured if they weren't a threat to win districts why bother with the hassle. They converted to CR for administrative purposes. I believe there are still sixteen teams in the district.

LL had 13 districts at one time. They had 11 when my son played 5 years ago. Now they have 8. It is dying fast in Phoenix. That being said, it is still the largest organization in the city by a wide margin.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.



Unfortunately, I don't think you can accurately evaluate LL players at the LLWS. They are playing in the "kiddie" pool.

As a matter of fact, you can't evaluate any of them, travel team or LL, when they are pre-teens or U15. Else the MLB scouts will be signing up players left and right in your so call travel teams. If I can pick the top 12 players from the LLWS teams (USA and international) and I have 2 months working with them, I bet I can crash your travel team, hand down (and I am not even a baseball coach). I say this because now I have the ability to draft from anywhere in the world (the biggest sampling size) and your travel team is mostly comprised of players within 100 miles radius. Is it fair to you now?

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
LL is trialing 50/70 open base baseball in LL around the country. This is how LL proceeds before making an across the board move. Our LL was a trial ground for pitch counts.

Another issue LL will have to plan for before making a change to the LLWS is reconfiguration of the fields. If you've been to Williamsport you know moving fences back another 20-30 feet from 225 will not be an easy task. Plus I'm willing to bet the environmentalists will go nuts about digging further into the large hill.



That's good. At least they're giving it a shot. They really should consider the change to a larger intermediate field since the new age cutoffs are here to stay.

As for moving back the fences at Willy, it's only knocking away some hill so not sure why environmental nuts would make a big deal about it but I suppose if they can find something to protest, they will.



The Little league in the next town over has completely dropped its "majors" division and has gone to 50/70. It had to in order to compete with the independent leagues in the area as well as travel ball.

To some extend, I concur that the mound should be moved to 50 feet. When you have a U12 pitcher doing 70mph, the reaction time is equivalent to a 95mph on the 60ft mound. And on top of that, they are swinging with a small barrel. You got to be Prince Fielder to be able to hit the baseball square for a home run.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Now, I have also done my share of complaining about LL but I have noticed some contradiction in this thread.

Many of us seem to agree that the LL players are clearly not as good as players on travel teams.

Then...

Many of us seem to agree that the LL teams that end up in Williamsport are...wait for it...travel teams.



Unfortunately, I don't think you can accurately evaluate LL players at the LLWS. They are playing in the "kiddie" pool.

As a matter of fact, you can't evaluate any of them, travel team or LL, when they are pre-teens or U15. Else the MLB scouts will be signing up players left and right in your so call travel teams. If I can pick the top 12 players from the LLWS teams (USA and international) and I have 2 months working with them, I bet I can crash your travel team, I bet I can crash your travel team, hand down (and I am not even a baseball coach). I say this because now I have the ability to draft from anywhere in the world (the biggest sampling size) and your travel team is mostly comprised of players within 100 miles radius. Is it fair to you now?

Know way you could with the top level majors 12U travel teams.

After all the home runs and scoring in the US chansonship game, I'm impressed that so many kids can hit 95 mph fastballs.

I'm not weighing in on the mound distance debate, just noting the there were 2 half innings with a total something like 20 runs scored, including several home runs. Not many strikeouts, the worst being the game ending K, which was an embarrassment to the umpire.

I got sucked into watching the game, as did my 18 year old son. We loved the drama. I don't have to watch THE BEST baseball. Heck, I've spent my adult life as an Astos fan. So the answer to the OPs question is "not anytime soon". Too many of us love baseball, including youth baseball.

We will be watching Tennessee take on Japan today. When my son goes off to college I might just find a local LL team to watch.

My College age son has little interest in watching LL baseball. In our 5 million people Metro area, there are only two obscure LL Parks. In the state, there are a couple of areas that I'm aware of where it's still prevalent; Columbus and Warner Robbins. Both are cities with a huge Military Base presence and both have won it all in recent years. In our area, there is no comparison in talent. That being said, the LL graduation 13 year olds catch up quickly upon "leaving the system." The level of talent regarding Baseball competition during those early ages is often miscalculated by parents.

LL was the only game in town when I grew up. In the day you did try out and for the most part, all younger players went to the Minors and the Majors were reserved for the older 11-12 year olds. My knock on the system and the reason I pulled my kid after one year and put him at a P.O.N.Y. Park was to stay within a two year age grouping at field sizes that grew with him. I remember vividly, as a Pitcher, how difficult it was to go from the the LL field at age 12 to the full size field at 13 when entering Babe Ruth and H.S. baseball. That was way too big a jump for my body which just wasn't ready.

And oh yea, having Umpired in the LL system, I can speak for myself when saying the Volunteer Umpiring was and is BRUTAL!

quote:

After all the home runs and scoring in the US chansonship game, I'm impressed that so many kids can hit 95 mph fastballs.

I'm not weighing in on the mound distance debate, just noting the there were 2 half innings with a total something like 20 runs scored, including several home runs. Not many strikeouts, the worst being the game ending K, which was an embarrassment to the umpire.

I got sucked into watching the game, as did my 18 year old son. We loved the drama. I don't have to watch THE BEST baseball. Heck, I've spent my adult life as an Astos fan. So the answer to the OPs question is "not anytime soon". Too many of us love baseball, including youth baseball.

We will be watching Tennessee take on Japan today. When my son goes off to college I might just find a local LL team to watch.

I normally don't watch the LLWS but I watched the Japan vs Tennessee game yesterday. Note that that the starter from Japan had not given a HR until yesterday, crusing FB at 75mph. He gave up the a HR on a 59mph breaking ball. Immediately after that, he was clocked throwing 78mph until his coach came to the mound to calm him down. I don't think the batters could even see anything at 45/46 feet mound. Not sure why he even bother throwing breaking balls.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Six years ago our district lost four programs just because Williamsport is so authoritative over the leagues. These leagues figured if they weren't a threat to win districts why bother with the hassle. They converted to CR for administrative purposes. I believe there are still sixteen teams in the district.

RJM, the Ugandan team is playing in Plymouth Meeting today at noon. Phillies game tonight.

Details

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I have loved it for years even though I say LL can not come close to the travel leagues. But I still watch. It has gotten worse every year.

I agree, but am not sure why my interest is waning as of late.