deaconspoint
Read his other posts where he "likes the long ball"
Tell a young kid to swing for a home run and you have a kid losing his mechanics and swinging out of his shoes---the home runs will come---better to have a kid hitting for average because that means he is doing things right in the batters box
Hitting... no make that athletics; is all about adjustments. Guys who only have one swing are not the most productive hitters. They may be good hitters, but they would be better if they would make adjustments.
Notlong, I have a hard time understanding your statement of:
That may apply in the earliest stages of baseball (up to 4 years old) or in the low levels of rec ball but right or wrong I think good players take it more seriously than that. I'm a firm believer in keeping score so we can tell who the winners and the losers are. I will make a confession that I always took pleasure in seeing the other team lose (that means we won). Fun? I only want 1/2 of the kids on the field to have fun.
Fungo
quote:The point of the whole thing is to let kids play and have fun.
That may apply in the earliest stages of baseball (up to 4 years old) or in the low levels of rec ball but right or wrong I think good players take it more seriously than that. I'm a firm believer in keeping score so we can tell who the winners and the losers are. I will make a confession that I always took pleasure in seeing the other team lose (that means we won). Fun? I only want 1/2 of the kids on the field to have fun.
Fungo
quote:Tell a kid that each swing should be a home run swing and you have a kid with a low batting average
I agree.
A great flat swing that is smooth and makes contact on the sweet part of the batt leaves the yard. The proof is in the stats.
Build a kid up and teach him to swing hard but not try to crush the ball every time will win games. When you make contact your motor nerves do the rest. Look at the slapped hits that travel to the fence that came off the sweet part of the bat. Little effort. Add a smoothe finish and its gone.
Blue dogs approach is a low percentage approach. Put the ball in play and see if the other team has learned the game.
I have heard many ML scouts talk about hitting at camps and they all stress making contact. After you learn contact the HRs come naturally.
Bobble: I agree. It's so important to have a smooth stroke. And, especially at my level, to be able to adjust. We see heat one day and very soft stuff the next. Sometimes a hitter has to make some concessions to the pitcher... most won't and that's why soft lefties in the big leagues live in mansions.
Fungo, I only had fun when we were winning!
It was no fun taking rocket grounders from my dad's alum fungo after a loss. i did it because I loved the game and wanted to get better.
Speaking of the alum fungo, he cracked it, severly, when I was 15 hitting shots at me. He still has it in his garage.
It was no fun taking rocket grounders from my dad's alum fungo after a loss. i did it because I loved the game and wanted to get better.
Speaking of the alum fungo, he cracked it, severly, when I was 15 hitting shots at me. He still has it in his garage.
Interesting turns in this thread. TR started out asking where are the fundamentals and now (maybe because of the limits of a message board, maybe because we've got posters whose players are anywhere from 9 years old to the pros) we seem to be getting some posters saying that being an athlete is enough and to swing for the fences every time.
Two more points for your list, Coach2709!
Of course there are players who just seem to be born with The Knowledge. When asked about his approach, Stan Musial said if he wanted to hit a ground ball, he hit the bottom of the ball, a line drive, he hit the middle, and a home run, he hit the bottom. OK, Stan, but what does a mere mortal do? Pete Rose's son asked him about hitting and he answered with 'you see the ball and you hit it'; his son said he got most of his tips from his mother, who had been watching Pete's swing so long she could break it down for him.
Reading a pitcher, understanding counts, reading a ball off the bat can all be self-taught through experience. But they'll come quicker and advance faster to all players (not just the ones with advanced natural talent) with discussion and coaching. Sort of like driving a car --- we could all figure that out on our own, but the roads are safer when drivers are taught the rules, anticipation, and defensive driving.
Baseball is an individual sport AND a team sport. My son's a catcher. His foot work could be spot on, his arm could be a howitzer, but if the MI don't read when he's throwing, don't keep the runner in their periferal vision, don't cover in time or have hard hands when they do, or the pitcher doesn't hold the runner or indulges his penchant for a high leg kick, all that amounts to is a conceded base to the opposition. Unless you've got a team full of Naturals, the finer points need to be coached.
The Swing For The Fences and For Love of The Game approach seems to me to consider only the individual player (I'm All Right, Jack). Ever lose a one-run game, when the runner not knowing the RFer had a weak arm or didn't play the ball off the wall well so he didn't take third and the LFer held the ball for an extra two seconds while he figured out where the play was and the hitter swung at a ball in the dirt with two outs and a full count and 3B let one go through the wickets because he didn't get his tailgate down all could have made the difference? That's because some of those players on the field had holes in their fundamentals. And it's true at every level as I was saying to So Taguchi only the other day (sorry, I'm still bitter about Opening Day
)
So you've got some evidence right here where fundamentals have gone, TR. They're not universally valued, even by Baseball People.
Two more points for your list, Coach2709!
Of course there are players who just seem to be born with The Knowledge. When asked about his approach, Stan Musial said if he wanted to hit a ground ball, he hit the bottom of the ball, a line drive, he hit the middle, and a home run, he hit the bottom. OK, Stan, but what does a mere mortal do? Pete Rose's son asked him about hitting and he answered with 'you see the ball and you hit it'; his son said he got most of his tips from his mother, who had been watching Pete's swing so long she could break it down for him.
Reading a pitcher, understanding counts, reading a ball off the bat can all be self-taught through experience. But they'll come quicker and advance faster to all players (not just the ones with advanced natural talent) with discussion and coaching. Sort of like driving a car --- we could all figure that out on our own, but the roads are safer when drivers are taught the rules, anticipation, and defensive driving.
Baseball is an individual sport AND a team sport. My son's a catcher. His foot work could be spot on, his arm could be a howitzer, but if the MI don't read when he's throwing, don't keep the runner in their periferal vision, don't cover in time or have hard hands when they do, or the pitcher doesn't hold the runner or indulges his penchant for a high leg kick, all that amounts to is a conceded base to the opposition. Unless you've got a team full of Naturals, the finer points need to be coached.
The Swing For The Fences and For Love of The Game approach seems to me to consider only the individual player (I'm All Right, Jack). Ever lose a one-run game, when the runner not knowing the RFer had a weak arm or didn't play the ball off the wall well so he didn't take third and the LFer held the ball for an extra two seconds while he figured out where the play was and the hitter swung at a ball in the dirt with two outs and a full count and 3B let one go through the wickets because he didn't get his tailgate down all could have made the difference? That's because some of those players on the field had holes in their fundamentals. And it's true at every level as I was saying to So Taguchi only the other day (sorry, I'm still bitter about Opening Day
)So you've got some evidence right here where fundamentals have gone, TR. They're not universally valued, even by Baseball People.
quote:A great flat swing that is smooth and makes contact on the sweet part of the batt leaves the yard.
Bobblehead, when you say flat swing, do you mean with level shoulders??
And/or the bat coming through on a horizontal swing plane??
quote:And, especially at my level, to be able to adjust.
Trojan, can you explain what you mean by a hitter making an adjustment??
quote:We see heat one day and very soft stuff the next.
What do you do to adjust to this??
Fungo...
I am not differing from you about the desire to win or the importance of keeping score. I am not so sure that I want that to take away from the other team's experience. They came, they gave it their best, they lost, and they have to deal with that. That happens.
My son has been fortunate in that he has travelled quite a bit for baseball in the past year and we have seen a broad range of play and players during that time. I am a long way off from being a rich man but, the planets just aligned last year. In the past twelve months my son has had two active MLB Scouts as coaches on two different teams and has been fortunate to train with a number of former Minor League, Major League, College level, and Olympic players. His Baseball adventure has taken him to Boston, Baltimore, Depew, Lewiston, Gainesville, and Del Ray, as well as numerous places here in Ontario. The one team he was on, had players from PA, AB, NY, MD, FL. In general, he's no superstar but, he can play with "good players" and hold his own. I find that "good player" is a very fleeting term. For example, at Gainesville, in two games against a fairly decent southern travel team, I saw three different players crank the ball between 240' and 270' on four occasions. I was impressed and said so to the MLB scout who was coaching our team "Boy 270' - that's something else." He said "Yeah... but the kid cant run and gauranteed, you wont see him on a ballfield in a few years."
I think there is a gain to be fundamentally sound at the earlier ages - you get more practise in doing things the right way. You feel good about yourself and you can adapt to change better. Mechanics; footwork; fundamentals; mental understanding; experience: a good athlete with these things should outweigh the candidate who is just a good athlete with experience.
There are different agenda's for different teams and ages. Yeah I coach my son on this team and I am keen on passing the fundamentals along as best I can. I like to think we are choosing to win our games at tournaments and the end of the season with a broader and more flexible base of talent. At the same time, my son is also working with another team a year older and comprised of some of the best players from 7 or 8 larger cities with the intent to travel. Should they win (and I brood after losses)? - Yeah... Should they work on fundamentals - you betya!
Cheers
I am not differing from you about the desire to win or the importance of keeping score. I am not so sure that I want that to take away from the other team's experience. They came, they gave it their best, they lost, and they have to deal with that. That happens.
My son has been fortunate in that he has travelled quite a bit for baseball in the past year and we have seen a broad range of play and players during that time. I am a long way off from being a rich man but, the planets just aligned last year. In the past twelve months my son has had two active MLB Scouts as coaches on two different teams and has been fortunate to train with a number of former Minor League, Major League, College level, and Olympic players. His Baseball adventure has taken him to Boston, Baltimore, Depew, Lewiston, Gainesville, and Del Ray, as well as numerous places here in Ontario. The one team he was on, had players from PA, AB, NY, MD, FL. In general, he's no superstar but, he can play with "good players" and hold his own. I find that "good player" is a very fleeting term. For example, at Gainesville, in two games against a fairly decent southern travel team, I saw three different players crank the ball between 240' and 270' on four occasions. I was impressed and said so to the MLB scout who was coaching our team "Boy 270' - that's something else." He said "Yeah... but the kid cant run and gauranteed, you wont see him on a ballfield in a few years."
I think there is a gain to be fundamentally sound at the earlier ages - you get more practise in doing things the right way. You feel good about yourself and you can adapt to change better. Mechanics; footwork; fundamentals; mental understanding; experience: a good athlete with these things should outweigh the candidate who is just a good athlete with experience.
There are different agenda's for different teams and ages. Yeah I coach my son on this team and I am keen on passing the fundamentals along as best I can. I like to think we are choosing to win our games at tournaments and the end of the season with a broader and more flexible base of talent. At the same time, my son is also working with another team a year older and comprised of some of the best players from 7 or 8 larger cities with the intent to travel. Should they win (and I brood after losses)? - Yeah... Should they work on fundamentals - you betya!
Cheers
AquaCanine:
Of course you want your best swing; your grooved swing, your best swing every time... but I really believe that there are times when the hitter has to be able to make an adjustment and put contact ahead of "crusing the ball" with his best swing. If I've got 2 strikes on me and it's a tough pitch low and away I'm not going to hit that pitch 400 feet to straight away center; I'm going to carve that baby right over the 2nd baseman's head and the next at bat maybe I'll get something better to hit.
Pitchers do make good pitches too (even if it hurts you to give them a little credit, you've got to give them that much... come on throw them a bone (oh that's right, that's the last thing a BlueDog would give away)
*Anyway, that's just my take on it.
Of course you want your best swing; your grooved swing, your best swing every time... but I really believe that there are times when the hitter has to be able to make an adjustment and put contact ahead of "crusing the ball" with his best swing. If I've got 2 strikes on me and it's a tough pitch low and away I'm not going to hit that pitch 400 feet to straight away center; I'm going to carve that baby right over the 2nd baseman's head and the next at bat maybe I'll get something better to hit.
Pitchers do make good pitches too (even if it hurts you to give them a little credit, you've got to give them that much... come on throw them a bone (oh that's right, that's the last thing a BlueDog would give away)
*Anyway, that's just my take on it.
Trojan, the low and away pitch doesn't have to be conceded in any way......But, you do need to know how to hit it!!
This product will help a hitter learn how...
http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/infinitee.html
This product will help a hitter learn how...
http://swingbuster.stores.yahoo.net/infinitee.html
Take the so-called "pitcher's pitch" away from the pitcher!!
Canine:
I had not seen that little Doo-Dad... it looks pretty cool. I just may try it. thanks
I had not seen that little Doo-Dad... it looks pretty cool. I just may try it. thanks
Trojan, you're welcome...
About swing adjustments....
Hitters should not swing with less intent because the pitch is not belt high and down the middle.....This will disrupt their timing.....
Adjustments should be "where" and "when" to swing.....Not how hard to swing!!
Where to swing adjustment will be implemented by posture and/or the arms and hands......
When to swing adjustments should be implemented by technique, such as not taking the arms and hands straight to the ball while swinging with level shoulders.....
About swing adjustments....
Hitters should not swing with less intent because the pitch is not belt high and down the middle.....This will disrupt their timing.....
Adjustments should be "where" and "when" to swing.....Not how hard to swing!!
Where to swing adjustment will be implemented by posture and/or the arms and hands......
When to swing adjustments should be implemented by technique, such as not taking the arms and hands straight to the ball while swinging with level shoulders.....
Coach: good luck in your job search; sounds like it is in order.
If you've been there a few years then you have a pretty good flavor of the way it's going to be. We were real strong and then I was concerned we'd drop off but we got some dads and moms at the lower levels to establish some better methods at the lower levels and so now I think I'm on solid ground for the next several years. It does take a community in most cases (some folks can just go out and recruit some great players and get it done)
Coach2709,
You're pushing the wrong buttons. This is your challenge and you can solve it. The situation can be reversed. Let me point out some things that stand out in your post:
That tells me it the "problem" is with the program and how it is run and not because of a few bad apples on the team.
I highlighted the word "this" because this shows a division between the team and the coach. This is "YOUR" team or "OUR" team.
This shows a lack of confidence of those around you. There are those that will step up if allowed to do so. If you allow those around you to grow you will strengthen your position, not weaken it.
Again a good example that you want to separate yourself from your team. Actually you have NO district championships. Your TEAM won those district championships and while you were a part of that team, they are the ones that got the hits and made the plays. Let's give credit where credit is due.
I know I'm being harsh and I admit I don't have a solution but I firmly believe you can start by finding out what makes these players click. Of course you have the one obvious problem that I would solve immediately and that is the non supportive assistant in your program. Cut him loose if you can. If you can't then you need to at least have a man to man talk with him! I have always felt the assistant coaches set the tempo for the player/head coach relationship.
I don't recommend changing jobs and going into another coaching job. You will be faced with much the same mix of players where ever you go. You could very easily be faced with much of the same.
Get close with your players. Let them know you are on the same page with them. Let them know that you will make mistakes just as they will make mistakes but together we will learn and we will win. Make a commitment to them that you will do everything possible to help them. That allows you to ask them for their commitment to you. I think you will be surprised that inside those irresponsible, lazy, mistake prone, good for nothing players are developing young men that have pride and desire and are willing to give you all they have. The question is: "Do you know how to bring it out?"
Fungo
You're pushing the wrong buttons. This is your challenge and you can solve it. The situation can be reversed. Let me point out some things that stand out in your post:
quote:almost every year is like this
That tells me it the "problem" is with the program and how it is run and not because of a few bad apples on the team.
quote:I am so fed up with THIS team.
I highlighted the word "this" because this shows a division between the team and the coach. This is "YOUR" team or "OUR" team.
quote:What makes it worse is I have to do everything.
This shows a lack of confidence of those around you. There are those that will step up if allowed to do so. If you allow those around you to grow you will strengthen your position, not weaken it.
quote:In 40 years they have 3 district championships and in 8 years I have three myself. They never been to the regional championship game and I have.
Again a good example that you want to separate yourself from your team. Actually you have NO district championships. Your TEAM won those district championships and while you were a part of that team, they are the ones that got the hits and made the plays. Let's give credit where credit is due.
I know I'm being harsh and I admit I don't have a solution but I firmly believe you can start by finding out what makes these players click. Of course you have the one obvious problem that I would solve immediately and that is the non supportive assistant in your program. Cut him loose if you can. If you can't then you need to at least have a man to man talk with him! I have always felt the assistant coaches set the tempo for the player/head coach relationship.
I don't recommend changing jobs and going into another coaching job. You will be faced with much the same mix of players where ever you go. You could very easily be faced with much of the same.
Get close with your players. Let them know you are on the same page with them. Let them know that you will make mistakes just as they will make mistakes but together we will learn and we will win. Make a commitment to them that you will do everything possible to help them. That allows you to ask them for their commitment to you. I think you will be surprised that inside those irresponsible, lazy, mistake prone, good for nothing players are developing young men that have pride and desire and are willing to give you all they have. The question is: "Do you know how to bring it out?"
Fungo
Coach I admit I have no idea how it is with your team and I know my suggestions are idle cyber talk but maybe I can touch on something that might help you. Not saying this is your case but sometime we get so caught up in our own dilemma that we can't see the forest for the trees. Sometimes an outsider like me can touch something that stirs a thought or starts a plan. Your problem is not unique. I would venture to say that the lack of funding and the lack of administrative support are universal problems here in Tennessee and probably much of the US. While our high school now has their own baseball field it was just a few years back that we had no field and we had to play at the county park. I saw an active coach with a plan build a program starting with nothing but a bare field with chicken wire backstop, no bleachers, and a 5’X5’ “outhouse” built on a sled for a concession stand. His plan and leadership transformed it into a very good facility with a 1,700 square foot, two story, press box / concession stand/coaches office, lights, outfield fence, bleachers, PA system, scoreboard, and concrete dugouts bullpens and batting cages. While I was just a parent I was part of the construction crew that built the facilities. I spent at least 50 hours per week for two years doing everything I could. Since I am commonly considered a “handyman” I brought every tool I had from home including my tractor, welder, table saws, etc. I personally (along with two other parents) cosigned a $30,000.00 note at the bank to build some of our facility. There are parents in every community that will help do these things. The business community will pitch in donating those things they do or sell every day. I can tell you there are a lot of free “things” in every community. Some free products and services we received just by asking (pleading) were ---- Concrete blocks, all the steel angle iron we wanted, cyclone fencing, backhoe work, concrete finishing, plumbing fixtures, doors and windows, and a scoreboard. I firmly believe that parents can be a tremendous asset to a high school program. Give them the responsibility (and the authority) and they will bust their tails for their sons and the team
While some things change I know some things never change. The coach is gone, my son is gone, and I seldom go to the games but I know there are parents in the bleachers (I built) willing to help out just like we did for their sons and the team. Best of luck to you.
Fungo.
While some things change I know some things never change. The coach is gone, my son is gone, and I seldom go to the games but I know there are parents in the bleachers (I built) willing to help out just like we did for their sons and the team. Best of luck to you.
Fungo.
Coach I appreciate your input, your wisdom and your honesty. I have often said I couldn't put up with what coaches have to go through. On one end you have the parents expecting you to deliver everything and on the other end you get no support at all. It's a big challenge. I can see how a coach would start over to re-establish the ground rules and clear the slate. I know you will do well. I know this is about baseball fundamentals but good coaching is as about as fundamental as it gets!
Best of luck,
Fungo
Best of luck,
Fungo
BlueDog makes a excellent point. How hard you swing should never change. Its when you swing and where you swing that changes depending on the pitch. Poor hitters never make adjustments. Average hitters make adjustments from game to game. Good hitters make adjustments from at bat to at bat. Great hitters make adjustments during their at bat.
Coach2709, I've sent you a pm.
quote:Great hitters make adjustments during their at bat.
Agree completely!!.......And, they do this by not taking their hands and barrel of the bat straight to the ball...They get the bat moving, but don't commit to the swing plane till late....
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
I have several times over the years mentioned doing something like your story but people kept saying it wouldn't work or can't be done.
People saying things can't be done should stop interrupting the people busy doing them. - Michael Johnson's trainer
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:Great hitters make adjustments during their at bat.
Agree completely!!.......And, they do this by not taking their hands and barrel of the bat straight to the ball...They get the bat moving, but don't commit to the swing plane till late....
BlueDog,
I have finally found something that you and I agree on completely.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
Poor hitters never make adjustments. Average hitters make adjustments from game to game. Good hitters make adjustments from at bat to at bat. Great hitters make adjustments during their at bat.
CoachMay, I tell my hitters this all the time...verbatim!
Let's see you have to have died and the Pope has to confer sainthood. Who does it take to confer HSbaseball sainthood on Fungo? Is it enough that his son is no longer playing HSbaseball? You're a better man than I am, Fungo Din. 
Fundamental are being taught by some but most of the time its coach's that just want to win and leave behind the one's who can be taught. Rec ball leagues should be visited by middle school, high school coaches to emphasize the importance of fundamentals then win. Rec ball coaches should become certified before they can coach...
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
What is happening to the fundamentals?
Kids do not know how to run the bases and they have excellent foot speed?
They have no comprehension as to what certain pitch counts mean?
What is a cut off man?
I could go on-- and I am talking HS juniors and seniors not LL kids
Are we failing these kids with all the youth travel teams and lack of basic fundamentals ? Are the young players too hung up on 12 and under All American teams adn fancy tournament trophies?
It is becoming scary and then you ask why there are so many foreign players in the BIGS---perhaps it is because the foreign players are solidly grounded and work harder
There are two problems in my area, IMO. In Little League the teams are put together by the "in the knows" so they get the best players on their teams. They don't want to teach or even have to teach to win the League and that is all they are worried about. Those same kids then go play travel ball and rarely get a chance to PRACTICE. I think kids need to play games, but there is no substitution for good, well instructed practice.
quote:Originally posted by batnballs:
Fundamental are being taught by some but most of the time its coach's that just want to win and leave behind the one's who can be taught. Rec ball leagues should be visited by middle school, high school coaches to emphasize the importance of fundamentals then win. Rec ball coaches should become certified before they can coach...
Amen!
