Where is the line between a tough vs. abusive coach?

Mostly, wherever you start to lose the players. When talented baseball players decide it's not worth their time any more, you may need to start considering if the coach is the problem.

To me, yelling is fine.  Working kids hard is fine, up to a point.  Setting high expectations is fine.

 

But, they cross the line when they publicly humiliate, demean or embarrass kids.

 

Labeling is a sign as well.  "You need to run faster" is great.  "You are the slowest kid I've ever seen" is bad.

 

One of my kids' HSV basketball coach every day, would tell my DD that she did not 'win' the free throw shooting practice, in front of all the players. He was a piece of work.

There is a sort of line, I'm sure, and it probably is different now than in days past.  But in my eyes one thing matters most, and that is that the coach truly and sincerely cares about your kid and has established a relationship with him on that basis.

 

A very famous college coach has the reputation of being too hard on his kids based on rants and language and yelling, and I understand why. But his players or ex-players would lay down in traffic for him because they knew he loved them. That is the basis for being a good coach.

 

I love my players and tell them that. I think because of that I can get after then a little bit more (hopefully always constructively!) because they know where it's coming from.

 

If a coach doesn't let kids know he cares through words or actions, and criticism he gives them is too harsh to me. It's the difference of you getting on your kid about their behavior and a stranger saying the same thing to them in the same tone. Just doesn't work.

 

So to me "abusive" should be based on more than just volume or language, but the overall actions of the coach.

Had a couple of doozies.  I don't think I would label any of them abusive.  Moronic is probably more accurate.  

Society certainly has changed.  The stuff we put up with in the 80s when I was a kid would not be tolerated now.  That is progress I suppose.  But, in some ways it has probably gone too far.  At my sons HS a parent threatened to sue the school because her son did not make the HS team.  He got cut because (besides a general lack of skill) he had asthma.  Bad enough case of it where were times he had a hard time jogging.  The coach of course argued how can I have a kid on the team that can't run?  Nothing came of that one.  A couple of years before a parent again threatened to sue because her son didn't make the team....after only showing up to the first day of a three day tryout.  They had a family trip the other two days.  In that case the school Admin told the coach to put the kid on the team, he refused and quit as coach.  So, the "my kid is special" mentality has factored into this as well.  Things that are not abusive are perceived that way by people who are sort of nuts.  

I read a study where coaching, teaching, law enforcement ect. are professions more apt to attract narcissistic personalities.  This makes sense.  It is a little kingdom one can control.  I never understood a grown man who felt he needed to scream and curse out kids.  This shows, just my humble opinion, a real lack of character and maturity from the coach.  He could not talk to other adults that way or co workers or friends....what makes it ok to treat kids that way.  If you are in a position of power over people, especially minors, and you hold that power over their heads in such a way just because you can....you are a coward.  

I had a couple general rules.  I would praise in public (yell out encouragement or give praise for a nice play from the sidelines) and scold on the sidelines or in the dugout.  No reason to humiliate the kid.  I wouldn't take it personally if a kid messed up.  I did my best to not yell or curse.  I wasn't 100% with this, not perfect.  But for the most part I found it much more effective to talk to a player like he is a...wait for it....a person.  I respect you enough to speak to you like an adult, I expect the same in return.  

All that said, because a coach screams and yells and curses does that make him abusive? No, not to me.  

At a tournament two weeks ago a group of parents filed a complaint against my sons team because the coach told a player on his team to pull his Fing head out.  Filed a complaint....these kids are 18-19.  They could be carrying a rifle on patrol somewhere.

Weird mentality to me.  

 

This is absolutely point on in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

None of the coaches I had in 70s high school football, basketball and baseball could hold a coaching position today. By my standards they were tough. By today's standards they were abusive. But I could always go home and complain to my father the WW2 Marine. He would tell be I had the option to be a pussy and quit.

 

I've been called abusive as a basketball coach. I demanded my players go full tilt all the time. We played trapping defense and run and gun offense. There was no time to dog it. I pulled kids not going all out. I was told I can't expect every player to be as good as my son. I always responded I only expected everyone to play as hard as my son.

 

In a post game talk I told the team the good news was we won. The bad news is we looked horrible doing it. We had established as a goal to improve every week. That game was a regression. A parent grabbed their kid and stated, "I'm not going to let you abuse my kid after a win." He pulled his kid off the team. We won the championship. Thanks Dad! The parents of kids who loved the game said their kids loved playing for me.

 

My son's high school baseball coach had a difficult personality. As a varsity soph he made my son uncomfortable. He also humiliated him in front of the JV and the varsity on the bus. I was steamed. My son told me to get over it. By junior year my son didn't give a damn what the coach thought. As a star the coach joked with him at practice.

 

I believe my son could play for a Bobby Knight. He couldn't understood one of the fusses at Texas Tech. He said Knight should grab the player. The player was being disrespectful by looking away rather than looking him in the eyes.

 

I don't have an issue with coaches who yell at the team. Just don't make it personal in front of the team or public. Getting in a players face should be private. Unfortunately it creates a kid's/parent's word versus the coach. 

I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things

to other people, and I require the same from them.

 

 

John Wayne

Some good ones from 2018's high school frosh coach this season: 

 

After a kid went 0-2 against the #1 team in the league: "What the hell is wrong with you kid, you forget how to hit?" (yelled where everyone could hear. Kid was hitting over .400 on the season, then went into a tailspin after this game)

 

After a loss to the same #1 team: "You pu**ies are a f'ing joke, we beat them in football but you losers wouldn't know anything about being real men!" (said to a Freshman team that went 17-9 on the season against top So. Cal competition) 

 

After another coach brought the infield in to cut down the winning run at the plate, and the next hitter hit a ball into the gap to win the game: "F'ing idiotic - everyone knows you don't bring the infield in in that situation!" (said in a way for all players & parents to hear). 

 

I have zero issue with tough coaches, I was one myself and grew up in a Marine household. I do have issues with sheer stupidity mixed with no baseball knowledge.  Needless to say he won't be invited back for the 2016 season. 

 

 

At my sons HS a parent threatened to sue the school because her son did not make the HS team. 

 

Today this does not surprise me. 

 

parent again threatened to sue because her son didn't make the team....after only showing up to the first day of a three day tryout.  They had a family trip the other two days.  In that case the school Admin told the coach to put the kid on the team,

 

 

Tells you a lot about some administrators. when push comes to shove they will take the easy way out under parent pressure. 

I coached for 25 years. Have been out 15 years.  I was honest with my players if they screwed up I told them and yes I raised my voice on occasion.and you know what they could handle it they were tough. I was not going to tell a player to forget about because I was going to hurt his feelings. chances are he will forget about it and do it again then it is on me. I would never coach today and if somehow I become temporarily insane and I did I would last about maybe a week because I would tick somebody off because I demanded little johnny hit the cutoff man. 

Like Will, I coached for a very long time.  I am a yeller and I am tough.  I get after it and expect that the players match my intensity.  I am not one to insult.  That was done to me and I didn't like it.  Still, I will call you over to the side and get after you.  I am a hugger.  One who stops players in the hall to ask about grades and if they need to stay for tutoring instead of the first 30 minutes of practice.  I am one to have "peanut day" or "pizza day" because we have a tough week ahead of us.

 

I love the kids that played for me.  I don't know how they did it.  We won a lot.  We laughed a lot.  We cried a lot.  I've told this story before but I'll say it one more time.  We were going to play or rival school and so, were getting ready to start practice.  This was going to be an intense practice but on certain fundamentals like bunt defense.  The other school bunts a lot.  One of my boyz farted while I was talking.  Man you should have seen the team.  They went ghostly white and knew that they had to be punished for it.  So, I told them so.  Well, it was our rival we were playing the next day so I couldn't get after the boyz.  I looked at the young man and told him he messed up and the team will pay.  So, I handed the practice schedules to my assistants and told my top assistant to take my place.  We would be punished by me running 45 minutes for the team because the Coaches are a part of the team as well.  These young me begged me not to run.  They tried running beside me but I told them we had to beat our rival so get to practicing what I think will help us win.  They ran water out to me in an attempt to get me to stop for a minute or two.  It really touched my heart.  That team talks about it to this day.  At our banquet, the boys brought a "fart machine" (a gag gift one of their parents had received) and when they roasted the coaching staff, they turned that thing on. 

 

I don't know how one coaches now.  I don't know if I could still get away with what I did.  I do know you can't find one of my players that will say anything bad about me.  If fact, I think if you try, you might get put on your butt. 

 

("Boyz" because I used to start practice each day by saying, Hey Boyzzzzzzzz here's what's going down for today.  Today were going to ....

My son walked on and made the college team. I was proud he worked hard.  We would talk a lot. One day he called and was complaining(I call it whining) about how the coach got all over him because he got doubled off base on a bunt in a intra squad game during practice. After listening to him I said if he did not want the coach all over him do not get doubled off. 

Randy Pausch in one of his motivational speeches referred back to when he was a kid ....

 

He said he was down after a practice. An assistant walked over and said the head coach was hard on him that day. He told Pausch it's because the coach cared.  Had he said nothing it would have meant he had given up on you.

How's old Auggie and his boys doing last 10 years or so?  Both Graham and Garrido have been a little light on recruits recently.  Times change.  Both had a good run, but changes are coming.

A couple years back I was talking to a kid who was a pretty good player. I asked him where he went to school etc etc. I asked him when tryouts were. He said he was not trying out because he did not like the coach. I left it at that but it makes you think. Maybe down the road he will quit his job because he does not like his boss? 

You say that like it's a bad thing.  It's not a badge of honor to work for an abusive boss any more than it is to play for an abusive coach. Life's too short to waste your time on irreperable relationships.

No idea how to be real men....because they are not men. 

I love when a guy screams at kids not knowing how to be men....like a man yells and calls kids names.  Its just pathetic. 

More of this fake tough mentality that seems to be very common in baseball.  Chest puffing nonsense that is meaningless and usually coming from insecure losers.  

Being a real man how?  Supporting a family? Working 80 hours a week for years straight? Serving overseas?  Dealing with real sickness?  

Its baseball.  The toughest baseball practice is easier than the easiest football or rugby practice.  

I think coaches like this guy need to start with just trying to learn to be decent human beings that are men enough to treat others with decency.  

There was nothing said about abusive. The kid just stated he did not like the coach. 

It's a thread about abusive coaching...

Notwithstanding that, part of being an adult is making adult decisions about who you're willing to work, or play, for, and the post essentially implies that the kid made the wrong decision without any evidence to suggest that's true.

Teach them to make good decisions at this age, then let them make them.

Wow.  Some real interesting comments.  Difficult to see a distinction in a lot of examples.  I guess you know it when you see it and every player/parent has their own tolerance level.  Jacjcatk's idea that when you start to loose players is probably a warning sign is pretty good.  We are having this issue in our organization.  It is a very difficult time as everyone have their own opinions.   

 

It does seem like we have gotten soft from the days I played.  I suppose coach's need to adapt. 

There is a baseball coach around here that is an old-school yeller.  A football guy.  But he also coached baseball for years and he knows his stuff.  He recently got involved in baseball again.  Watching him on the field at practice and games, it is surprising he still has any voice left.  If you talk to the parents, he is abusive and they want to do everything they can to assure he does not come back next year.  If you talk to the kids, most of them love him.  He cares and he pushes them.  For me, I think that in most ways he is a pretty darn good coach (except for some language that probably shouldn't happen these days).  He has pushed some kids into giving full effort to their teammates.  Those same kids would have pushed the envelope to get away with everything they could with today's more typical PC coach.  But then, I've seen coaches on the other end of the spectrum who are very successful as well...  coaches who rarely yell, never cuss, always sensitive to where, how and when they address player "shortcomings", etc. 

 

There is a basketball coach in the area who is definitely, by today's standards, a verbally abusive coach.  I couldn't stand him the first few times I saw him coach.  My son also played basketball and kept telling me "I love that guy".  As I watched him more, it became apparent that he was consistently able to get more out of less with his teams and, again, his players hated him at times in the moment but, in the end, loved him and what he did for them.

 

I think the common denominator is truly caring for the players and the game and having an effective way of reaching most of the players.  There are more than one ways to succeed and even the best coaches don't always reach everyone.

 

There are coaches who are able to succeed, to reach the kids, to communicate and be clear with their expectations, to command respect, to teach and mentor without yelling, cussing and otherwise demeaning.  But there are still plenty of good, effective coaches who just don't have that in their personality and kids can benefit from them as well. 

 

So the question about where the line is drawn at "abusive"? - very blurry.  I think it may benefit today's players and parents to be aware that there are still many coaches at the college level and many bosses in the work force who will push those limits and knowing how to function at the best of your abilities under this type of "boss" is quite a valuable thing.

My sons summer ball team was playing yesterday, 19U.  One player was having a bad game.  Bad route on a fly ball, a couple of bad at bats.  He grounded out to end an inning with the bases loaded.  He was thrown out at first and stood there for a couple of seconds taking off batting gloves ect. and chatting with the first baseman.  He started laughing at something the first baseman said and the coach lost it.  Meets him out on the field and lectures him, ok, no biggie to me.  He then took a folding chair and set it outside the dugout behind a fence that led to the dugout.  So, he had to sit outside the dugout the rest of the game.  The coach was saying if you're not a team guy then don't be with the team.  The coach was pissed (he is a hot head) for about 5 minutes then calmed down.  He would send other players out to "check" on the guy he put in "time out"....bring him seeds or whatever.  He would lean on the fence and talk to him while the team was hitting....talking about approach and the pitcher ect.  

So, started out pissed....had some fun with it (the other guys on the team were laughing and having fun with it), but, still was teaching and I am sure the message was received. 

A pretty good approach really.  

When I wandered back to the stands some of the parents asked what happened....I gave a 10 second explanation.  Some laughed and some were angry at the kid being singled out.  

Sort of can't win.  

The only thing I still don't care for is lecturing on the field, but, that is a personal approach thing.  

I don't disagree, but on the topic of whether or not Garrido's abusive, I don't think it's relevant. Still effective? Maybe a discussion there.

 

And I put Graham and Garrido in to vastly different categories from a player relationship standpoint.

Where would you guys say that my coach was? Tough, or abusive?

Fly, this is not a good first step toward letting it go.

As for the OP question. I would have to say I don't know and/or don't have the ability to judge. In 15 years of playing and 20 years of coaching I've never seen an abusive coach. I've seen coaches others might consider abusive but I didn't. In all the personal stories I've heard I only heard of one coach I would consider abusive. He was a soccer coach that was molesting his players.

If the coach talks differently to his players than he does his coworkers or would allow his coworkers or parents talk to him, then he is abusing his power  and is nothing more than a coward and bully.

 My kids always preferred the tough Coaches that knew their $hit. The nice ones usually allowed to much horsing around during practice.  I once coached with a ex major leaguer who would try to bribe the kids to play hard or win a game with trips to his house for pool party, amusement park, you name it. That's how this guy coached and raised his kids, he would beg and bribe them.....very nice guy but terrible coach.

 

I could tolerate a lot of verbal, if the coach is teaching and we are getting what we want out of the deal.

My son played for a screamer.  He talked of quitting and I said a similar thing to him as the above post.

His response:  What are you talking about that is just stupid.  This is a High School extra-curricular activity that should be fun and coach is a a$$hole sucking all the air out of it.  Graduating college and getting a job that I am being paid for that allows me to eat is totally different thing.  Pay me enough and I'll sweat it.

 

That is when I realized my son is much smarter than I was at 17 and it was satisfying.

 

 

 

 

There is hoping you don't disappoint your coach/team and then there is actual FEAR as in, oh God, what will he do to me/say to me?  I have watched an entire team turn from a bunch of talented little ball players to being so scared they would make a single mistake that when that mistake inevitably happened they didn't even look at the play taking place, the kid was too busy staring at the coach with utter FEAR in their eyes.  The abuse/tough line isn't always clear with the words being spoken but it's pretty clear when you watch a kids reaction after he messes up.

There is no place for screaming or yelling negative feedback to players. Shout praise from the rooftops. Scold in a normal voice. Let the message take center stage and not your tone or body language. There should be no emotional aspect to constructive criticism other than that the player needs to know you are on their side and want nothing more than to see them improve. Let the kid motivate himself by issuing reminders, "Remember what we talked about? Focus. Let's see it!" Be equally ready with supportive praise. "Yeah! That's what we want to see! Great job!"

You can be firm without screaming like an idiot. The kids will only tune you out. All of your ravings will fall upon deaf ears.

Excellent first post, CoachPaul! Welcome to HSBaseballWeb! Hope you stick around.

I will be honest. As a coach for 25 years and a teacher for 40 retired nowI found out the last several years it was a constant thing in the back of my head that I had to be careful what I said in fear it would be taken the wrong way. That self esteem thing was beaten to death.A student was not doing well or failing many times I and others were put on the defensive. Parents e mails phone calls etc etc. the kid failed a test or did not turn in an assignment somehow that was my fault.I was once told I did not like the kid to which I responded I would like him a lot more if he did his work and put out more effort. To which the parent said I was being demeaning. Now not all were like that but one or two could make your life miserable. Years ago as a coach I told a player he stunk. Yes I did and I told him why.The previous game he walked 5 and hit 2 batters in 2 innings. I then told him I was going to run his butt out there again and he would have to prove to me he did not stink. 3 hit shutout complete game 10 ks. Looking back could I have done that today. Do not know. Maybe the kid goes home tells the parent I told him he stunk and I would be in the ADs office the next day? 

 

 

I tell you one sign of a tough, but non-abusive coach -- a willingness to stand up and take responsibility for his own errors of judgment or whatever.    My kid played with a coach who was a terrible in game manager.  Just terrible.   He was always getting kids picked off or thrown out, etc.  He never seem to learn his lesson, though.  Indeed,  when that would happen he would go ballistic and yell at the kids,  would often cuss them out.  terrible man with terrible problems.  A bunch of us finally rebelled and told the head of the organization either that guy goes or we go -- and this was the entire 16U team just about.  He went.  He was an utter a**hole, d**khead and abusive as all get up,   

I would hope "you stink" doesn't cross a line with any parent.  Now when you tell a player in front of an entire team "Yup, I would have bet money you would have missed that ball too, why, because you can't catch ANYTHING, you may as well lay your glove on the ground at home plate and they would have a better shot of getting it to go into the glove"...said to the starting catcher of a 12u team....really instills confidence and shows the kid you have faith in him!

I think that is a great point.  Does the coach have the ability to adapt and if necessary apologize if he went to far.  Our organization is dealing with a guy who seems to double down instead of adjusting.  When a parent complains about him getting on a kid, it seems he goes after the kid harder. 

 

I think for the most part, kids (and parents) can take a lot -- they get the hard nosed coach.  They may disagree in private, but it would take a whole lot to go to the AD.  But there is always one parent who is ultra sensitive.  Coaches and administrators need to know how to diplomatically deal with that situation.   

 

However, if players start to leave, as mentioned earlier, the coach needs to look in the mirror and make the necessary adjustments. 

 

It is clear that there is no clear line.  Everyone and every situation is different.  That makes it very difficult to know what is good, bad or indifferent. 

I think that one is ok.  Domingo Ayala told a coach's kid that he could sell is glove on ebay for brand new because it never made a play. 

Domingo wasn't 12, and trust me it got way worse.  The whole team imploded because rather than us thinking yeah get him coach we were cringing at the way he demeaned each and every kid on the team.  Sad thing was the guy actually knew baseball but couldn't deliver it without mocking and demeaning every kid so they all played stiff as a board.  Sadly the kids played best when he wasn't there.

       
       
One of my favorite all time movie quotes!  And words to live by.  Letting some coach rail on my son will never happen.  Nothing about that will 'make him a man'.