Where is the line between a tough vs. abusive coach?

I am old.  When I was a young coach I was hard core.  All those tough manly make a man out of you things. Now don't try to differentiate by saying 'well if its done in the right way'  or 'if your players love you'.  Most of my players liked me too.   Doesn't make it right.  And by the way how can any sane person think its ok to tell a kid he stinks????  I was abusive when I was in my 20's.  My players liking me doesn't change that.  Thank god I grew up some never do.  And this whole stick it out thing?  No way.  My kid has an abusive.coach we are gone.  The coach can go $#%÷ himself.  Leftside nailed what being a man is all about.  Folks its baseball screaming has no place.  You can make an argument in basketball and football.  I am not interested in that debate but I acknowledge at least there is a point to be made there.  In baseball?  No.  Treat kids with the same level of respect we all want.  Anything less makes you LESS of a man not them more of a man.

I coached with a guy like that when my kid was 13.  It was a terrible season.  We had a few interventions to try to get him to change but he couldn't.  He was a former D1 player at a big school.  It was just the way he was. 

IMO any time a kids safety or well being is a risk you having a coaching problem.  The best coach and baseball instructor my son had was a severe alcoholic and had to be let go by the organization.  He was by far the most knowledgable instructor he has had but not such a good role model for kids.  The good news is he is now sober.

 

I've always told my son that at some point in life you are going to have to deal with people you don't like so as long as there is now physical or verbal abuse then you will be fine.  My son can play for any style coach as long as he feels that he is learning from them.

So you think football and basketball coaches should conduct themselves in a different way than baseball coaches when it comes to player communication and relationship building? 

 

Do you think you should be able to talk to your kid in a different way than his baseball coach? If so, why?

 

 

If you're up for it, let us in on some before and after examples. 

Fly, from what you said he was abusive. however, he is a thing of the past.

Here is a list of all time great coaches of the last 50 years: Noll, Wooden, Landry, Torre, Alston, Lombardi, Shula, Belicheck, Jackson, Walsh and Popovich. 

 

None are known as people that demeaned anyone or used profanity to any serious extent.  They all tended to view themselves as teachers and demanded hard work and your best effort as a player.  All had longevity to go with the results.

 

I include Lombardi specifically as the Patron Saint of Screamers.  He really was not as much a screamer as a taskmaster.  His legacy is somewhat skewed in my opinion as a result. 

 

The most common trait of the greatest coaches is they are teachers - they identify that way and they love practice as much or more than the games. 

 

In HS if you get someone like this ...in any subject...that also stirs in a little solid basic life wisdom - you have struck the jackpot and you should thank God every day for that person being in your life.  History, Math or Coach - it does not matter which but having just one is a prize to cherish. 

I tend to look at this in a vein similar to luv baseball, but I certainly would not exclude known, highly emotional, and highly successful HOF coaches such as Weaver, Anderson, Madden, Auerbach and Coach K as illustrations to demonstrate one size does not fit all when it comes to getting the very, very best from players.

I would not equate "yelling" or "screaming" on a baseball field as any differentiating factor in tough or in abuse.  Yelling is neither a sign or evidence of toughness or abuse, in my view and experience.

Most often,it is what is in the message, not how that message is delivered.  It is what goes on in the coaching-athlete relationship, in addition to the volume or lack of volume in the words, which differentiates on the question involved..

One of the most successful of all college baseball coaches is also known as a man of few words.  Those words are usually not spoken at a high level during game situations.  Those words have been reported to be very biting to a player when spoken.  This is not Garrido.  Some have suggested this coach creates an environment where his players compete at a very high level but with a level of execution which is almost robotic, because anything less is just not tolerated. I would guess that if toughness can be detected to come from words spoken at a "yelling level" or perceived in harsh tones, toughness can also come from very few words.  Abuse can probably, also.

No matter how spoken, as a general guideline, I would expect that current players and parents will find words which speak negatively about the player as a person to be far less tolerable than words which can be harsh or even very critical, but are speaking about how the player performed in a certain situation.

What can be challenging, especially for parents, is to be able to appreciate words said in the "heat" of competition, toward their son, which are critical of the play, to be different than criticism of the player. At its core, I believe it would be quite unfair for any coach to be judged as being tough as contrasted to being abusive because they yell.

Implicit in this quote is the fact that John will respond -- not that he would expect his parents to.

Great post.

A few related notes...

My coaching style falls far closer to the other end of the spectrum.  Also, my normal voice is low volume.  Often, if there is a situational learning opportunity at practice, I would rather everyone learn it instead of just the person that created the opportunity .  So, sometimes, I'll stop play and yell the message.  So to a new observer, I can even come across as a yeller, which is far from accurate, I believe.  To a new "sensitive" parent, this can also come across as me calling out his/her kid in front of everyone.  In fact, the players are very aware that I will use these situations regularly to call attention to the situation and not the player.  Now, if that same player repeats the action several times, I may have a different type of dialog or action.

       
       
I did not indicate that you necessarily SHOULD.  And as I said I really don't want this debate.  Just said there is a case that can be made.  And I will answer your question of why.  Basketball and football are try harder momentum type sports.  You CAN get fired up and actually perform better at least in spurts.  So firing up the troops can help.  Baseball getting fired up probably hurts a lot more than it helps.  Its a game of confidence and concentration neither of which are enhanced by screaming.

       
       
A. It's a fictional charachter of course.  B. He was a grown man.  I have debated this point more than I care to on this site but 12 and 13 year olds are not capable (generally) of standing up to an abusive coach.

yelling and screaming? If you yell and scream all the time the players will just say there he goes again and there will be no effect. However there is a time well at least back when I was doing it when you have to let the team know you are not pleased. 25 years I did it 3 times in the locker room to the whole team. Just me and them. I raised my voice and red the riot act. I said what I had to say and we moved on. Could I do that today? Well I dont have to worry about it  

       
       
I am pretty embarrassed at some of the things I did as a young coach.  I do not want to share specifics.  Not that I don't want to help other young coaches but I am just deeply ashamed.  A lot of language and sadly some name calling.  And a lot of calling kids out.  Constant ragging on umpires/officials.  Fueds with other schools/coaches.  Now just a whole lot calmer.  A lot more one on one with underperforming players.  And more consequences oriented.  I am not going to berate you but I still might sit you, suspend you or remove you from the team.

The best coaches I have personally known in youth sports are football coaches.  They have been coaching together for about 12 or 13 years.  They have coached ages ranging from 10 to 15.  They have had a lot of success, winning several region championships and making it all the way to a national championship Pop Warner game last season.  

Having coached with them a few years and having gone to many, many games and practices I have never, not one time, heard any of them demean or yell at a kid in anger.

Not one time in over 10 years.  They don't cherry pick their roster, they take what they are given and they are just great at getting kids to understand a complex game. 

They are very straight with the kids at the beginning of the practice....here is our goal, here is how we do it, do it our way and you will improve and win and have fun.  

The other thing they do which is unusual is they find roles for the less talented kids.  If there is a kid with a limitation, just not athletic or has never played before, they will break it down into tiny pieces.  One week in practice they may work on one thing with this a kid like this.  Getting out on a certain couple of plays and making his blocking assignment.  Work that over and over and over in practice.  Then come game time they run the play 8 or 10 times.  So, the kid has some success for his hard work and his role expands the next week.  By seasons end they have developed more depth, confidence and skill than any other team.  All of their kids get more plays than the mandatory minimum unless they miss practice.  

Not to beat a dead horse but a grown man who feels the need to yell and curse out children to get his point across probably does not have confidence in what he is teaching or has not ability to teach it.  He is displaying his shortcomings, not his players. 

2020 You are no different than just about any coach or father I know. As you get older you learn and you see that many of the things you did didn't have to be done or could have been done in a better way. When I first started coaching I couldn't understand why players couldn't see things the way I saw them when I was a player. Why they couldn't understand the process. Why they didn't know what I thought they should know. On and on it went. You mature as a coach. And you mature as a player. Heck my kids are grown. And sometimes I sit back and say to myself how the heck did I do it? And why the heck did I do it like that? What was I thinking? Thank God I did some things right.

 

For me its about confidence. Building confidence. Through a process. It's about building a fire. Through a process. I want to instill confidence in my players. I want them to have fun. I want them to develop a love of the game and a true desire to compete. I want them to look in the dugout and see a guy who is there for them, pulling for them, confident in them, will fight for them, will push them to be their best, will demand that they be all they can be.

 

I never ripped a player without making sure later I put my hand on his shoulder and let him know why. And I never let an opportunity to praise him for his effort pass by. Players are not stupid. They know if you care about them. They know if you are just a bully or if you truly care about them. If you truly care about the young men you coach you will push them to be the best they can be. And they will curse you at times under their breath but at the same time they will go to war for you. Because they know you care about them.

 

I loved my players enough to invest in them. To work hard for them and to make sure they understood that anything worth having is worth working for. Tough coaches that truly care about their players don't have a problem. Tough coaches that are ego maniacs who only use their players for their self gain do. The players know.