D1 team ranked 200th in the nation.
D2 team ranked 20th in the nation.
Which is the stronger program and team? If they played each other 10 times over 3 weeks, who's winning more games?
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My money is on the D2 team because they know how to win ballgames and their players will have a chip on their shoulder that they got passed over by a D1 school. ;-)
I echo what Fenway says. If they play 10 times I say D2 team wins 7 times.
I would still go with the better education to set up the future regardless of D1 or D2. I went back to 2019 (a full season). There are D1’s with winning records ranked 175-200 in RPI. Fairfield (your general area) was #175 with a 35-25 record. They surprised ranked UConn. UConn started a pitcher with a 10.00 ERA. Fairfield jumped on him and held on.
There may be better D2s. But why is your son going to college? He should be looking for the best quality education to set up his future that includes a potential positive baseball experience regardless of level.
Don’t get hung up on D1 like it’s a badge of honor. It won’t matter after college. If it matters at all most people will say, “Wow! your kid played in college” regardless of the level. Outside the big name programs most people don’t know the difference.
@RJM posted:I would still go with the better education to set up the future regardless of D1 or D2. I went back to 2019 (a full season). There are D1’s with winning records ranked 175-200 in RPI. Fairfield (your general area) was #175 with a 35-25 record. They surprised ranked UConn. UConn started a pitcher with a 10.00 ERA. Fairfield jumped on him and held on.
There may be better D2s. But why is your son going to college? He should be looking for the best quality education to set up his future that includes a potential positive baseball experience regardless of level.
Don’t get hung up on D1 like it’s a badge of honor. It won’t matter after college. If it matters at all most people will say, “Wow! your kid played in college” regardless of the level. Outside the big name programs most people don’t know the difference.
There is also the money part of it. Maybe a lot cheaper to go D2 and get an equivalent education compared to the D1 that is more expensive.
@Francis7 posted:D1 team ranked 200th in the nation.
D2 team ranked 20th in the nation.
Which is the stronger program and team? If they played each other 10 times over 3 weeks, who's winning more games?
Well, with just under 300 D1 programs and about 275 D2's it may be tough to answer definitively which is the stronger program with whatever overlap exists. Adbono and Fenway probably right about who wins the 10 game series but still tons of variables.
What IS easy... 20th ranked D2 wins more games. And, importantly, that team is likely in the thick of things for postseason play. Not so for the D1. Having a true shot at making a postseason run is a big deal in a lot of ways. Players are much more likely to stay engaged, energized, motivated, happy and fulfilled during the grind with that carrot. For the real player, any shine of nicer facilities wears off with taking regular beatings on the field.
I would go by SOS. That's an important factor for me.
If affordability is important. I would consider where you would get the best education for the least dollars spent.
D2 programs are not always cheaper than D1.
@cabbagedad posted:Well, with just under 300 D1 programs and about 275 D2's it may be tough to answer definitively which is the stronger program with whatever overlap exists. Adbono and Fenway probably right about who wins the 10 game series but still tons of variables.
What IS easy... 20th ranked D2 wins more games. And, importantly, that team is likely in the thick of things for postseason play. Not so for the D1. Having a true shot at making a postseason run is a big deal in a lot of ways. Players are much more likely to stay engaged, energized, motivated, happy and fulfilled during the grind with that carrot. For the real player, any shine of nicer facilities wears off with taking regular beatings on the field.
This x 1000
The winner will be the team with the most knowledgeable coaching staff.
Do they have the scouting report on the D-1 team? Can they learn from the report to educate & motivate their players? Is the game at home or on the road? Is the game 7 innings or 9 innings?
Bob
Do underestimate that winning is a heck of a lot more fun than losing also plus Championship baseball has a vibe completely different than the regular season.
Conference championships, Regionals, CWS regardless of level are so much more exciting for players and families. My son played in 4 conference championships, 4 Regionals, and 1 CWS, and those memories dwarf the regular season. Plus when they traveled to an opponents home field they EXPECTED to win.
@Consultant posted:The winner will be the team with the most knowledgeable coaching staff.
Do they have the scouting report on the D-1 team? Can they learn from the report to educate & motivate their players? Is the game at home or on the road? Is the game 7 innings or 9 innings?
Bob
You are right on with that comment!
The best coaches do their homework!
Which school has his major?
Also consider that the D1 coach may be on thin ice whereas with the D2 coach stability seems more certain.
@Francis7 posted:There is also the money part of it. Maybe a lot cheaper to go D2 and get an equivalent education compared to the D1 that is more expensive.
I'll agree that its not always the case. My daughter went to a private D2 and it was almost double any of the state D1 schools. One of my son's hs teammates is playing baseball for them now and getting it almost free. Well worth playing baseball there even if just to get the education.
TPM, Cabbage, Adbono, BOF, RJM:
It is important that parents review the rosters, the number of players, however you are all experience with your son and daughters. If a player desires to play College baseball in 2021, what are your questions to ask the Coach.
It is his decision whether your son plays or not.
With the current crisis, it is important to consider
your son's GOALS in life.
Bob
To give you some perspective, when the season ended in March, Stetson was the 202nd best team in the country as per RPI. When the 2019 season ended Pitt was in the 190s.
Both of those programs would absolutely smoke 99% of D2s. I would take either of those programs taking 9 out of 10.
This board loves to give credit where it is due to the D2, D3, and Juco programs. It's great and I would encourage all to look beyond the number after the division and find the best overall academic, athletic, and financial fit. But this board also tends to give very little credit to D1 programs outside of the top 50. Just because a team doesn't win 40 games a year doesn't make them talentless bottom feeders. Choosing a school just because they win more games may be a factor between two schools in the same conference, but between two levels there is way more to it than that.
What I would say is whoever would win a series isn't important. If that D2 offered 60% and the D1 offers 25%, maybe the D2 gets the edge. Maybe the 100 ranked D1 offers but it's a bit further from home than he'd like. Maybe the D2 says we have a senior C, we want you to catch midweeks then take over for us after he leaves.
Moral of the story - make a decision based on fit. Weigh the academics, athletics, then talk about affordability and come to a conclusion based on that, not records.
@PABaseball posted:To give you some perspective, when the season ended in March, Stetson was the 202nd best team in the country as per RPI. When the 2019 season ended Pitt was in the 190s.
Both of those programs would absolutely smoke 99% of D2s. I would take either of those programs taking 9 out of 10.
This board loves to give credit where it is due to the D2, D3, and Juco programs. It's great and I would encourage all to look beyond the number after the division and find the best overall academic, athletic, and financial fit. But this board also tends to give very little credit to D1 programs outside of the top 50. Just because a team doesn't win 40 games a year doesn't make them talentless bottom feeders. Choosing a school just because they win more games may be a factor between two schools in the same conference, but between two levels there is way more to it than that.
What I would say is whoever would win a series isn't important. If that D2 offered 60% and the D1 offers 25%, maybe the D2 gets the edge. Maybe the 100 ranked D1 offers but it's a bit further from home than he'd like. Maybe the D2 says we have a senior C, we want you to catch midweeks then take over for us after he leaves.
Moral of the story - make a decision based on fit. Weigh the academics, athletics, then talk about affordability and come to a conclusion based on that, not records.
I disagree with some of what you said. I believe this board tends to assign too much credit to lower level D1 just because it’s D1. There is also too much credit given to top level D3 IMO. Stetson & Pitt are good programs and don’t belong down near # 200. But there are other D1 programs hovering around there that would not fare well against a top 20 D2 team. Top D2 teams usually have a handful of D1 bounce downs and 20 or more JuCo guys and they are much better than most people think.
@adbono posted:I disagree with some of what you said. I believe this board tends to assign too much credit to lower level D1 just because it’s D1. There is also too much credit given to top level D3 IMO. Stetson & Pitt are good programs and don’t belong down near # 200. But there are other D1 programs hovering around there that would not fare well against a top 20 D2 team. Top D2 teams usually have a handful of D1 bounce downs and 20 or more JuCo guys and they are much better than most people think.
I agree with the D1 hype with some schools/conferences that bring nothing to the table except the "D1". Weak academics, bad baseball, you know which I'm talking about. If I'm not being recruited by any schools with competent baseball programs, a decent academic reputation, or some insane financial package, I would just be looking at the best school I could find or likely the JC route. I would never go to a school just because of their division. Quite frankly, I don't think there is a ton of that on this board for schools in that world to get knocked enough. Too many seasoned people here to let that slide.
But I still stand firm that plenty of D1s get overlooked on here just because they don't win 40 games a year. There is a lot more programs bring to the table than baseball. Fairfield was mentioned, they're a program that would get brushed off, but there are plenty of reasons Fairfield could be more appealing than a 35 win D2. Same with Patriots and A10s. The Division doesn't matter. What they can offer you is more important.
@PABaseball posted:I agree with the D1 hype with some schools/conferences that bring nothing to the table except the "D1". Weak academics, bad baseball, you know which I'm talking about. If I'm not being recruited by any schools with competent baseball programs, a decent academic reputation, or some insane financial package, I would just be looking at the best school I could find or likely the JC route. I would never go to a school just because of their division. Quite frankly, I don't think there is a ton of that on this board for schools in that world to get knocked enough. Too many seasoned people here to let that slide.
But I still stand firm that plenty of D1s get overlooked on here just because they don't win 40 games a year. There is a lot more programs bring to the table than baseball. Fairfield was mentioned, they're a program that would get brushed off, but there are plenty of reasons Fairfield could be more appealing than a 35 win D2. Same with Patriots and A10s. The Division doesn't matter. What they can offer you is more important.
No argument with any of that but their are certain D2s that have specific academic programs that aren’t widely available AND play really good baseball. Better overall package than some A10 & Patriot League schools in both regards. That’s why you can’t broad brush and generalize about this stuff.
Can't go by 2020 RPI. You can't determine a season by 15 games. In all fairness, Stetson struggled in 2019 with an RPI of 183. FWIW, Pitt was in last place in their division both years.
Yes, there are many good teams that don't make the 64 field in June. However, it is my opinion that every team should strive for a 64 or below for RPI, or to win their conference 'ship. That's how teams like Stetson get in. The more coaches understand RPI and scheduling, the more chances they get to make the field. There are actually computer programs used by coaches so they know what they have to do to make regionals. They have programs for everything these days!
I am not sure of the discussion here, but reality is a player will be recruited for baseball according to their skills and grades. It's up to the player to decide. There are great D1, D2 programs out there, and being the #1 team in your conference or division and going to travel for a regional is very exciting, no matter D1, 2, or 3, which I hear their WS is awesome.
I mentioned Fairfield as I’ve followed them in box scores and stats the past two seasons. A kid I saw as no better than a quality D3 prospect** walked on and got opportunities his freshman year. Hit .170 in sixty at bats and chances are you fall behind next years recruits. He only had two at bats when the season was called this spring. But in 2019 the team did go 35-25 and made it to the semifinals of the conference playoff. They upset UConn during the season.
The MAAC is a lower rated D1 conference. But 35-25 makes for a fun season. It is D1. And they did upset UConn. The downside is I believe they’re not fully funded. It’s an expensive private.
** The kid has great foot speed, hands and baseball instincts. He’s small, doesn’t have a D1 arm or D1 bat speed.
@TPM posted:Can't go by 2020 RPI. You can't determine a season by 15 games. In all fairness, Stetson struggled in 2019 with an RPI of 183. FWIW, Pitt was in last place in their division both years.
Yes, there are many good teams that don't make the 64 field in June. However, it is my opinion that every team should strive for a 64 or below for RPI, or to win their conference 'ship. That's how teams like Stetson get in. The more coaches understand RPI and scheduling, the more chances they get to make the field. There are actually computer programs used by coaches so they know what they have to do to make regionals. They have programs for everything these days!
I'm not a fan of RPI in general. You take Pitt out of the ACC and take Miami, UNC, FSU, UVA, etc off their schedule every year and their RPI skyrockets.
Everybody knows that an ACC program is not the 195th best program in the country. I get the science and formulas behind it, but RPI just doesn't take logic into account. I know the argument is that this is the math, the numbers don't lie. But if you swap conferences with schools like Pitt and Youngstown St or BC and Northeastern, you would be able to see the difference.
MasseyRatings
2019: #200 Rutgers vs #20 Lubbock Chr
2020: #200 Penn St vs #20 Azusa Pacific
I like @adbono's prediction of 7 of 10 for D2.
@PABaseball posted:I'm not a fan of RPI in general. You take Pitt out of the ACC and take Miami, UNC, FSU, UVA, etc off their schedule every year and their RPI skyrockets.
Everybody knows that an ACC program is not the 195th best program in the country. I get the science and formulas behind it, but RPI just doesn't take logic into account. I know the argument is that this is the math, the numbers don't lie. But if you swap conferences with schools like Pitt and Youngstown St or BC and Northeastern, you would be able to see the difference.
I am a big RPI fan. You don't necessarily have to win every conference game, but you have to win as much as you can in your non conference, and have to win as much as you can at home. You can't say take a program out of their conference and they will be better somewhere else. That would include a whole lot of programs doing better than they are! No one knows how 2020 would have ended for a lot of programs.
We all know that Pitt didn't join the ACC for baseball. That doesn't make it a bad program.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:MasseyRatings
2019: #200 Rutgers vs #20 Lubbock Chr
2020: #200 Penn St vs #20 Azusa PacificI like @adbono's prediction of 7 of 10 for D2.
So this is the point I was trying to make. Take those schools out of the Big 10 and the RPI is nowhere near 200. You put them in another local conf like Ohio Valley, MAAC, NEC and they both probably walk through those conferences and we're having a different discussion about how they're 35 win tournament teams.
I have a really hard time believing 10-10 Azuna Pacific walks through a Big 10 school like that. This is what I meant yesterday when I said once you leave the top 50 a lot of schools get talked about as if they're doormats. There is bad D1 baseball, the two schools you mentioned are nowhere near that marker. Millersville for example. They're a highly ranked D2 in PA. I don't buy for a second that they would take a single game in a three game set from struggling P5s like Pitt or PSU.
@PABaseball posted:So this is the point I was trying to make. Take those schools out of the Big 10 and the RPI is nowhere near 200. You put them in another local conf like Ohio Valley, MAAC, NEC and they both probably walk through those conferences and we're having a different discussion about how they're 35 win tournament teams.
I have a really hard time believing 10-10 Azuna Pacific walks through a Big 10 school like that. This is what I meant yesterday when I said once you leave the top 50 a lot of schools get talked about as if they're doormats. There is bad D1 baseball, the two schools you mentioned are nowhere near that marker. Millersville for example. They're a highly ranked D2 in PA. I don't buy for a second that they would take a single game in a three game set from struggling P5s like Pitt or PSU.
Now I get your point. I agree.
@PABaseball posted:Millersville for example. They're a highly ranked D2 in PA. I don't buy for a second that they would take a single game in a three game set from struggling P5s like Pitt or PSU.
How would they do against, say, a team like Monmouth University - who is not a P5, but is a D1 school who usually falls around 200 out of 300 in many D1 rankings.
@PABaseball posted:So this is the point I was trying to make. Take those schools out of the Big 10 and the RPI is nowhere near 200. You put them in another local conf like Ohio Valley, MAAC, NEC and they both probably walk through those conferences and we're having a different discussion about how they're 35 win tournament teams.
I have a really hard time believing 10-10 Azuna Pacific walks through a Big 10 school like that. This is what I meant yesterday when I said once you leave the top 50 a lot of schools get talked about as if they're doormats. There is bad D1 baseball, the two schools you mentioned are nowhere near that marker. Millersville for example. They're a highly ranked D2 in PA. I don't buy for a second that they would take a single game in a three game set from struggling P5s like Pitt or PSU.
Sorry, I should not have included 2020 since it was cut short. As for Rutgers vs LCU...
I didn't catch too many LCU in 2019, but I watched some highlights this morning.
I've seen Rutgers play almost every year since my son was in high school. I looked at their 20-31 record in 2019... it's not pretty.
In 2019 LCU had 4 guys drafted, and Rutgers 1.
I don't feel strongly about my opinion because it's not based on a whole lot, but I'll take LCU in 2019. If you're saying RPI is undervaluing Rutgers, that makes the D1 vs D2 comparison even more interesting. Looking at the teams around Rutgers on Massey, I would say it's kind of hard to distinguish them from team ranked 175-225, maybe even a larger range.
@Francis7 posted:How would they do against, say, a team like Monmouth University - who is not a P5, but is a D1 school who usually falls around 200 out of 300 in many D1 rankings.
Florida Atlantic played Monmouth in 2019. I remember that series. Was a decent series won by FAU.
Monmouth is my alma mater. Jersey Shore, can't beat that!
Remember, when you get into the weaker D1 conferences, pitching isn't going to be that plentiful. My opinion, pitching wins games. So it all depends on whether that D2 has enough pitching as well. Also remember, that the better teams that you play, the better you will be. That's why you have some teams always playing the best. They may not have a stellar season, but if they win their championship, they are in.
In the end, often it will come down to coaching.
So when making a choice, check out the coaches entire record. That is equally important.
JMO
@TPM posted:Florida Atlantic played Monmouth in 2019. I remember that series. Was a decent series won by FAU.
Monmouth is my alma mater. Jersey Shore, can't beat that!
Remember, when you get into the weaker D1 conferences, pitching isn't going to be that plentiful. My opinion, pitching wins games. So it all depends on whether that D2 has enough pitching as well. Also remember, that the better teams that you play, the better you will be. That's why you have some teams always playing the best. They may not have a stellar season, but if they win their championship, they are in.
In the end, often it will come down to coaching.
So when making a choice, check out the coaches entire record. That is equally important.
JMO
Very good advice in this post! Every program begins and ends with the HC and programs often reflect his personality. If the HC is a genuinely good man, and the program generally tries to do what’s right, the odds are much better that it will be a good experience for your son. The reverse is also true.
Which is the better team and program? I'll answer from a parent's point of view. The program that will give my son the best opportunity to play and present him with the most affordable and quality education possible. Only next would I look at the wins.
Not sure which team is better but I would rather play in a very good D2 than in a very bad D1 if I'm a borderline kind of talent between the levels.
Losing a lot of games is really not a lot of fun. You can say what you want but team chemistry is going to suffer if you lose a lot. Having great people and culture helps but people can only take so much losing without getting frustrated.
Unless you are a draft prospect it is about the experience and the experience is much better if 1) you are playing and 2) your team is winning. Winning is fun.
@adbono posted:Very good advice in this post! Every program begins and ends with the HC and programs often reflect his personality. If the HC is a genuinely good man, and the program generally tries to do what’s right, the odds are much better that it will be a good experience for your son. The reverse is also true.
Wish I could like this post twice.
@Francis7 posted:How would they do against, say, a team like Monmouth University - who is not a P5, but is a D1 school who usually falls around 200 out of 300 in many D1 rankings.
As mentioned before and after you go as far as your pitching. Is Bucknell better than Florida State? In game one they were with a hot pitcher and won 7-0.
https://bucknellbison.com/news.../5/30/209029724.aspx
Florida State proceeded to sweep the next three games and the tournament scoring 58 runs including eliminating Bucknell by putting 24 on them.
@RJM posted:As mentioned before and after you go as far as your pitching. Is Bucknell better than Florida State? In game one they were with a hot pitcher and won 7-0.
https://bucknellbison.com/news.../5/30/209029724.aspx
Florida State proceeded to sweep the next three games and the tournament scoring 58 runs including eliminating Bucknell by putting 24 on them.
Winning one game in baseball doesn’t make you the better team. To your point, when I was in college we played the Astros a few days before their season opener. We beat them 1-0 in 10 innings. We’re we the better team? Of course not! But they wouldn’t play us anymore after that.
@adbono posted:Winning one game in baseball doesn’t make you the better team. To your point, when I was in college we played the Astros a few days before their season opener. We beat them 1-0 in 10 innings. We’re we the better team? Of course not! But they wouldn’t play us anymore after that.
Spring training exhibition games versus college teams aren’t worth discussing. The MLB teams don’t want to be there. My point is one hot pitcher can change the entire dynamic. But once past that depth you’re toast.