Up, down & out?
Lead with Hip?
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Whatever works for the pitcher that will NOT lead to injury.... 2018 has never had any pitching lessons. FWIW he leads with the hip
and keeps a stiff upper lip......
In my opinion there isn't a better way, it's unique to each pitcher. Some kick, some balance oddly, some have wild and/or deceptive movements. I believe a pitcher is born. You can tweak them a bit but they throw how their body tells them they can. They could have tight hips, weak knees, or something else they compensate for, but when you get into true pitching in high school and beyond I truly think those are the kids who have always pitched like that. A true pitchers velocity and location ability is something I truly think they are born with. Sometimes you can teach one or the other, but not usually both.
Nolan Ryan's mechanics were, arguably, the best
Good question! I've wondered about that, too: "tall and fall" or "drop and drive"? I certainly don't have an answer, but agree that what may work well for one may not work at all for another.
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Orlando2022Dad posted:Up, down & out?
Lead with Hip?
The object of the pitching motion is to deliver the baseball with optimum velocity and command while minimizing the stress to the arm and shoulder. This begins from the ground up and involves a series of kinetic movements that need to be performed without interruption if you want the best results. There are exceptions to every rule (Kershaw) but what I have described can only be accomplished if you lead with the hip. Anything that stalls or reduces the momentum you are trying to build in the delivery is a counterproductive movement. Up, down & out is one of these. So is drop & drive. Both are negative movements. The answer to your question is Lead With The Hip.
adbono posted:Orlando2022Dad posted:Up, down & out?
Lead with Hip?
The object of the pitching motion is to deliver the baseball with optimum velocity and command while minimizing the stress to the arm and shoulder. This begins from the ground up and involves a series of kinetic movements that need to be performed without interruption if you want the best results. There are exceptions to every rule (Kershaw) but what I have described can only be accomplished if you lead with the hip. Anything that stalls or reduces the momentum you are trying to build in the delivery is a counterproductive movement. Up, down & out is one of these. So is drop & drive. Both are negative movements. The answer to your question is Lead With The Hip.
Good points ... our "go-to" is hip lead. But we evaluate on an individual basis. Variables include comfort, arm angle, natural tendency, response to instruction, effectiveness with other methods, how one is best able to effectively generate core rotational strength and use lower half, body size and shape, etc.
Some pitchers just have trouble linking kinetic chain using mechanic A vs B.
Disclaimer - not a pitching guru, just a HS coach. But we have found this approach effective with the help of some good pitching folks over the years. Basically, if a young pitcher comes in with something different (and is not under the guidance of a P instructor) we will introduce him to hip lead. Most make the adjustment and benefit. Some can't but are effective with what they use, so we groom that.
How about "tilt back" vs. "turn/coil horizontally" ? "pause at balance point" vs "continued momentum" ?
Cabbage, send me a PM if you want to go into more detail on this. I will be happy to respond.
Lots of pitchers can have some success using unconventional methods but it is usually short term success. We teach a method that we believe to be the best to sustain long term success - which includes staying healthy. Just like a golf swing, you want a delivery that repeats itself in order to get predictable results. Any movement that is unnecessary adds a margin of error. A pause or a coil would be examples of this and therefore would be something to eliminate not something to teach.
This prompts the thought that Lanz Wheeler is about to host his annual Pitch-a-Palooza seminar in Nashville from 12/8 - 12/10. It always attracts some of the best minds in the business, as both presenters and participants.
Regardless of your opinion, the answer, etc.
If you love to see great pitchers throw great pitches with great mechanics, follow Rob Friedman @pitchingninja
Here is a gif of Carl Hubbell and Madison Bumgarner side by side https://twitter.com/PitchingNi...s/935916515064459264
Or the next great Astros starter https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/935878840395751424
Or what a great 91mph change up looks like from a lefty https://twitter.com/PitchingNi...s/935873970619977728
There are literally thousands of short video clips of great pitchers from christy mathewson to greg maddux to phil niekro to pedro martinez to nolan ryan on his feed. If you use twitter, highly recommend Rob Friedman as a follow.
Hmm . . . I am so clueless I didn't even know what these are. I always taught my kid (who has never had pitching lessons) "momentum down the hill." I must have said that to him five thousand times. And I stopped him from the "balance point" nonsense (IMO) his LL coach in 5th grade demanded. As far as I can tell, based on these comments, it's "lead with the hip" -- apparently it's like Adbono teaches.
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Orlando2022Dad posted:Up, down & out?
Lead with Hip?
The object of the pitching motion is to deliver the baseball with optimum velocity and command while minimizing the stress to the arm and shoulder. This begins from the ground up and involves a series of kinetic movements that need to be performed without interruption if you want the best results. There are exceptions to every rule (Kershaw) but what I have described can only be accomplished if you lead with the hip. Anything that stalls or reduces the momentum you are trying to build in the delivery is a counterproductive movement. Up, down & out is one of these. So is drop & drive. Both are negative movements. The answer to your question is Lead With The Hip.
Good points ... our "go-to" is hip lead. But we evaluate on an individual basis. Variables include comfort, arm angle, natural tendency, response to instruction, effectiveness with other methods, how one is best able to effectively generate core rotational strength and use lower half, body size and shape, etc.
Some pitchers just have trouble linking kinetic chain using mechanic A vs B.
Disclaimer - not a pitching guru, just a HS coach. But we have found this approach effective with the help of some good pitching folks over the years. Basically, if a young pitcher comes in with something different (and is not under the guidance of a P instructor) we will introduce him to hip lead. Most make the adjustment and benefit. Some can't but are effective with what they use, so we groom that.
How about "tilt back" vs. "turn/coil horizontally" ? "pause at balance point" vs "continued momentum" ?
Really like this response. All one has to do is look at the delivery of pitchers at the elite level to understand that one size does not fit all. Agree that hip lead is a great place to start if pitcher is using up/down/out and is unable to maximize his potential. I just don't like it when pitching coaches try to make changes for the sake of making changes. My son coil's which was actually introduced to him this summer along with a leg kick have been a difference maker. His timing is much better with improved command and a healthier arm.
Thanks for the responses all!
I agree but here is our dilemma...
I believe lead with the hip is the more effective method in my 2022 son's delivery for both velocity and location and the overall "feel" for him (we've toyed with both). I have trained him up to this point but felt it was time to turn him over to someone far more knowledgeable then me.
He takes pitching lessons every week with a very respected and well known pitching coach who it seems works with him (as I watch the lesson) on up, down & out.
Mind you this Coach (who we really like) has not seen him play baseball as he is simply his pitching and strength Coach.
I just don't want to be wasting time, nor throwing $ away when the Coach is preaching something different then my son prefers.
I have told my son to talk to the Coach and let him know how he feels and that he prefer leading with the hip (as he pitches in games). He said he is afraid to talk to Coach about this.
Should I discuss with Coach, let my son know how important it is for him to speak up and express his feelings or do we both keep quiet?
Orlando2022Dad posted:Thanks for the responses all!
I agree but here is our dilemma...
I believe lead with the hip is the more effective method in my 2022 son's delivery for both velocity and location and the overall "feel" for him (we've toyed with both). I have trained him up to this point but felt it was time to turn him over to someone far more knowledgeable then me.
He takes pitching lessons every week with a very respected and well known pitching coach who it seems works with him (as I watch the lesson) on up, down & out.
Mind you this Coach (who we really like) has not seen him play baseball as he is simply his pitching and strength Coach.
I just don't want to be wasting time, nor throwing $ away when the Coach is preaching something different then my son prefers.
I have told my son to talk to the Coach and let him know how he feels and that he prefer leading with the hip (as he pitches in games). He said he is afraid to talk to Coach about this.
Should I discuss with Coach, let my son know how important it is for him to speak up and express his feelings or do we both keep quiet?
Paid lesson coaches are not the same as team coaches. You have every right to ask about his philosophy and talk to him about his methods. Maybe you aren't seeing what you think you are. Maybe he's seeing something you aren't. If you don't trust him find another guy.
cabbagedad posted:…How about "tilt back" vs. "turn/coil horizontally" ? "pause at balance point" vs "continued momentum" ?
A local ex-DI coach in this area is a “turn/coil horizontally” guy all the way and every pitcher who works with him can be spotted easily. His “students” are some of the hardest throwers around, but he also generally only works with the “better” pitchers to start with so I don’t know how much he’s really helped increase velocity.
And then there’s the other side of the velocity coin. His “students” are also notoriously weak when it comes to command and control.
I know him fairly well and like the guy, but his success rate with players of “lesser” talent to begin with isn’t stellar.
Orlando2022Dad posted:Thanks for the responses all!
I agree but here is our dilemma...
I believe lead with the hip is the more effective method in my 2022 son's delivery for both velocity and location and the overall "feel" for him (we've toyed with both). I have trained him up to this point but felt it was time to turn him over to someone far more knowledgeable then me.
He takes pitching lessons every week with a very respected and well known pitching coach who it seems works with him (as I watch the lesson) on up, down & out.
Mind you this Coach (who we really like) has not seen him play baseball as he is simply his pitching and strength Coach.
I just don't want to be wasting time, nor throwing $ away when the Coach is preaching something different then my son prefers.
I have told my son to talk to the Coach and let him know how he feels and that he prefer leading with the hip (as he pitches in games). He said he is afraid to talk to Coach about this.
Should I discuss with Coach, let my son know how important it is for him to speak up and express his feelings or do we both keep quiet?
Ask questions! Share with him what you think you are observing and ask for clarification. After it is clear to you what he is teaching and why, you can then make a better-educated decision on whether this is a good match for your son.
If, ultimately, you decide that your assessment is correct, there is nothing wrong with expressing appreciation but desire to try other styles to see what works best for your son. It is no secret to such coaches that a variety of mechanic methodology is taught and there are more than one "correct" ways.
This is a great age to figure this out. I suspect you will only be disappointed if you don't ask the questions. That is a big part of what he is being paid for.
It may be that this coach is trying to get your son to stay over his backside and drive into hip rotation better. Leading with the hips too much can negate rear leg drive and this aggressive hip rotation.
Orlando2022Dad posted:Up, down & out?
Lead with Hip?
I will send you a PM today or tomorrow
CaCO3Girl posted:Orlando2022Dad posted:Thanks for the responses all!
I agree but here is our dilemma...
I believe lead with the hip is the more effective method in my 2022 son's delivery for both velocity and location and the overall "feel" for him (we've toyed with both). I have trained him up to this point but felt it was time to turn him over to someone far more knowledgeable then me.
He takes pitching lessons every week with a very respected and well known pitching coach who it seems works with him (as I watch the lesson) on up, down & out.
Mind you this Coach (who we really like) has not seen him play baseball as he is simply his pitching and strength Coach.
I just don't want to be wasting time, nor throwing $ away when the Coach is preaching something different then my son prefers.
I have told my son to talk to the Coach and let him know how he feels and that he prefer leading with the hip (as he pitches in games). He said he is afraid to talk to Coach about this.
Should I discuss with Coach, let my son know how important it is for him to speak up and express his feelings or do we both keep quiet?
Paid lesson coaches are not the same as team coaches. You have every right to ask about his philosophy and talk to him about his methods. Maybe you aren't seeing what you think you are. Maybe he's seeing something you aren't. If you don't trust him find another guy.
Son's pitching coach has a way he teaches kids to pitch. Nothing wrong with asking him about what he teaches and how. He will discuss pitching mechanics with you. But if you start to tell him this is how I want him to pitch, or work on the curve to get players out, he'll reach in his wallet and give you your check back. He says if you know so much, coach him yourself. Ditto if your kid just doesn't have the arm. He will tell you your kid will never be a pitcher. Same if I kid just won't respond to him.
I had lunch yesterday with a friend who is a minor league pitching instructor in the Rangers organization. He said something that was very well worded and might be helpful to many - so I will pass it on. He said that pitchers are focusing what they are doing : a) over the rubber OR ; b) over the plate ........ but you cant be thinking about both at the same time. For example, you could spend an entire bullpen session working over the rubber (aspects of the delivery) or you could spend an entire bullpen session over the plate (working on location). Or you could do half and half. But if you are working on delivery you are not working on location - and vice versa. Obviously in a game situation a pitcher has to be focused on over the plate (location) and NOT over the rubber (mechanics). This is common sense if you think about it but I thought he stated it very well - and its not something you would commonly hear from a run of the mill pitching coach.
Adbono, that sounds nice and clean. But here's where I sorta get hung up... when you are working on "over the rubber" mechanics, the slight adjustments are reflected by the "over the plate" results. That is often the measuring stick as to what the mechanical adjustments are doing. (Not always - i.e. when velo and movement are the focus). So, can you really always separate the two?
cabbagedad posted:Adbono, that sounds nice and clean. But here's where I sorta get hung up... when you are working on "over the rubber" mechanics, the slight adjustments are reflected by the "over the plate" results. That is often the measuring stick as to whether the mechanical adjustments are working. (Not always - i.e. when velo and movement are the focus). So, can you really always separate the two?
In terms of results the two are linked together for sure. But in terms of how to practice effectively the point is to keep the two separated. Hopefully you are different than this, but what I see in HS coaches regarding their pitchers is this: they make all their decisions based on performance - which is fine. But if a kid doesn't perform they get kicked to the curb (and its next man up). And the coach doesn't do anything to help the kid's performance improve. One of my pet peeves is (when a kid is struggling on the mound during a game) to hear a coach shout from the dugout, "make an adjustment." Just once I would like to see a pitcher holler back, "okay coach, please explain to me exactly what adjustment I should make & how to do it!"
adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:Adbono, that sounds nice and clean. But here's where I sorta get hung up... when you are working on "over the rubber" mechanics, the slight adjustments are reflected by the "over the plate" results. That is often the measuring stick as to whether the mechanical adjustments are working. (Not always - i.e. when velo and movement are the focus). So, can you really always separate the two?
In terms of results the two are linked together for sure. But in terms of how to practice effectively the point is to keep the two separated. Hopefully you are different than this, but what I see in HS coaches regarding their pitchers is this: they make all their decisions based on performance - which is fine. But if a kid doesn't perform they get kicked to the curb (and its next man up). And the coach doesn't do anything to help the kid's performance improve. One of my pet peeves is (when a kid is struggling on the mound during a game) to hear a coach shout from the dugout, "make an adjustment." Just once I would like to see a pitcher holler back, "okay coach, please explain to me exactly what adjustment I should make & how to do it!"
Can you expand, categorically, which aspects you would work on specifically under the rubber vs plate columns? Some are obvious, I think, but I'm curious on many others.
I agree largely on your comments but, as you know, there are limits. With our HS program, we work regular pens with instruction with our P's, including in-season, and we work on developing depth with our staff. But the line has to be drawn somewhere (time restrictions, the need for those same players to be involved in other aspects of practice, etc.) and performance does come into play. We may work with about eight pitchers deep at V (while realistically, five get the innings). There are others who would like to be included in the pen rotation but it's not realistic.
"Make an adjustment" ... well, yes, if there is no basis behind the comment, then this is not good. However, our P coach will sometimes use that statement and, having worked with each pitcher regularly, each pitcher will know exactly what adjustment he is referring to (almost always 
).
This is the type of stuff that makes the good guys different. Coaches will go and listen to "gurus" at conferences, but in the end they know better what works. And many of their fixes are really quite simple. For instance, thrown several balls down-and-away to help get back on top of the ball better.
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:Adbono, that sounds nice and clean. But here's where I sorta get hung up... when you are working on "over the rubber" mechanics, the slight adjustments are reflected by the "over the plate" results. That is often the measuring stick as to whether the mechanical adjustments are working. (Not always - i.e. when velo and movement are the focus). So, can you really always separate the two?
In terms of results the two are linked together for sure. But in terms of how to practice effectively the point is to keep the two separated. Hopefully you are different than this, but what I see in HS coaches regarding their pitchers is this: they make all their decisions based on performance - which is fine. But if a kid doesn't perform they get kicked to the curb (and its next man up). And the coach doesn't do anything to help the kid's performance improve. One of my pet peeves is (when a kid is struggling on the mound during a game) to hear a coach shout from the dugout, "make an adjustment." Just once I would like to see a pitcher holler back, "okay coach, please explain to me exactly what adjustment I should make & how to do it!"
Can you expand, categorically, which aspects you would work on specifically under the rubber vs plate columns? Some are obvious, I think, but I'm curious on many others.
I agree largely on your comments but, as you know, there are limits. With our HS program, we work regular pens with instruction with our P's, including in-season, and we work on developing depth with our staff. But the line has to be drawn somewhere (time restrictions, the need for those same players to be involved in other aspects of practice, etc.) and performance does come into play. We may work with about eight pitchers deep at V (while realistically, five get the innings). There are others who would like to be included in the pen rotation but it's not realistic.
"Make an adjustment" ... well, yes, if there is no basis behind the comment, then this is not good. However, our P coach will sometimes use that statement and, having worked with each pitcher regularly, each pitcher will know exactly what adjustment he is referring to (almost always
Send me your private email address is a PM and I will send you something. Too much meat on that bone to try and discuss in a thread on this board.